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Anonymity For CSM: Common Sense And Safety.

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Hakaru Ishiwara
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#121 - 2013-02-04 14:07:22 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Seleene wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
I can't say that I'm all that happy about having my RL name published but I can't help feeling that you're making a bigger deal out of this than it actually is.


I'm pretty sure you won't need to hire body guards unless you start stealing titans or giving speeches at the summit advocating for more money in CCP's Incarna Fashion budget.


Or you are being a woman or a suicide-risk carebear or …

But the crux of the matter is that between the legal risk to CCP and the personal accountability and personal risk to the identified CSM candidate, CCP prefers to cover their arses rather than yours.

Issler had a stalker, but what are the chances that she would have ended up with a stalker regardless of CCP revealing real names up front? How many women play this game and have to put up with stackers despite never having communicated their personal details outside their social circles? I would be interested to know.

There are real world laws to protect people against real world interference such as stalking, nuisance calls, death threats, and so forth.

If you, dear reader, want to be on CSM and are not prepared to have your real identity discovered, perhaps you could arrange to field a sock puppet candidate?
Yet, those who seek, for example, public office and gain wide exposure to the dregs of society sometimes need extra protection in the form of hired security. And their associated government organizations also provide additional personal security. Real world laws do not go all that far towards truly protecting individuals against harassment from those intent on causing trouble.

In the case of the CSM, you have individuals relinquishing their private identities to a highly spirited gaming community based upon the worst morals and ethics available to mankind -- with no additional protections offered up by CCP.

IRL, most people who have great wealth, power or some other attractive / charismatic quality seek out privacy with great vigor due to the shitheads intent on ******* with them.

+++++++ I have never shed a tear for a fellow EVE player until now. Mark “Seleene” Heard's Blog Honoring Sean "Vile Rat" Smith.
AkJon Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd
Ferguson Alliance
#122 - 2013-02-04 16:16:55 UTC
I am truly in awe of the CSM members who risk life and limb by publishing their REAL names!

If CCP ever were to abolish the RL name requirement, then the alternative would be to publish a CCP-verified list of every alt on every account ever owned by the person running.

But seriously, abolish the CSM already.
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#123 - 2013-02-04 19:55:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Poetic Stanziel
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
Scooter McCabe wrote:
My real life qualifications matter how exactly? If anything people can use their real life "experience" to pettifog the fact they don't know what they are talking about game wise.

If it is truly your position that a candidates RL experience and qualifications are irrelevant to the question of whether or not they will be an effective CSM, then I fear you will have great difficulty convincing CCP Xhagen of the merits of your case.
How many current CSM actually included their real-life qualifications when running? I'm pretty sure nobody knows what Noah does for a job. I'm pretty sure writing a video game 30 years ago, back when all the man-power required was one or two people, is not a qualification. And what does Xhagen care what a CSMer does in real-life? He has no control over who is voted in or not.
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#124 - 2013-02-04 20:00:29 UTC
Snow Axe wrote:
I'm glad you mentioned the resume thing: I actually peeked back at the candidacy threads of all y'all that were elected. A whopping 4 of 14 of you made any reference at all to your RL selves, and only yourself and Seleene went into any detail (Two Step just briefly mentioned his name and occupation, and Meissa just made a not-detailed mention of past jobs he's had as a developer). Even among those of you who released RL information, only Seleene's was any significant part of what they ran on (understandable given he was a former CCP dev). I don't think this whole "verifying RL credentials" thing is anywhere near as important as you're making it out to be.
This, because Trebor is throwing up a strawman that few CSM have used as a basis for their candidacy.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#125 - 2013-02-04 20:06:41 UTC
Most CSM members spend an entire hour out of the entire year on camera on a live stream, and that's the CSM panel at Fanfest. Unlike them, however, AT commentators, Fanfest alliance panel presenters, and other player volunteers who end up on CCP streams are not obligated to divulge their RL names to anyone but CCP.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#126 - 2013-02-04 21:28:08 UTC
CCP Xhagen wrote:
Not only does it deter people who are worried about their RL names being linked to their online behavior but it also deters people who would use that information to harass CSM candidates and members - both have potential RL consequences.

I don't really understand the last half of that sentence. How does Two Step's real-life name being published deter anyone from harassing him? You mention law enforcement ... and while it may be true in Iceland that law enforcement have the time to look into these things ... law enforcement in most large countries do not have the time or resources to look deeply into cases of harassment ... especially when the harasser could very well be living in another jurisdiction.
Frying Doom
#127 - 2013-02-04 21:41:35 UTC
Just a quick question, is there a url were it lists all of the CCP staffs real names and their countries they live in?

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#128 - 2013-02-04 22:07:17 UTC
Seleene wrote:
I don't care what you call yourself in the mirror, if I meet you in person then I am going to call you Noah or Greg or Robert or Alex or Josh or whatever your actual name is. If you're going to represent a real community about a real video game that has real problems, you should probably expect that the company will want you to use your real name too. v0v
If I was on the CSM, I would expect and request that you just call me Poe. I would need no familiarity with the bunch of you.
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#129 - 2013-02-05 01:23:25 UTC
Shadoo wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
If you, dear reader, want to be on CSM and are not prepared to have your real identity discovered, perhaps you could arrange to field a sock puppet candidate?


There's a big difference between being prepared to have your real identity discovered and making it widely available and authoritatively linked to your EVE personality.

Once upon a time my main reason for not running for CSM was that difference (nowadays everyone knows it anyway and I have no time). But -- I still know of few other high profile EVE FCs/leaders from other major alliance who have not ran either due to this pointless part of the process.

It seems utterly stupid to publish the RL names of CSM candidates and it's about time stupid was hammered out of the process.


Well we have hints of other major alliances being able to field candidates this next race, whether this rule is changed or not. It just might be a smaller issue that not everyone can run. Like you not having the time, or others over the posting RL names.

But with the two PL CSM leaving this year, and with reading this post. The only major issue, is if PL had no CSM candidate run because of this issue. If there is no PL candidate running, that might cause a scandal or force the issue, but if there is a good PL person who can still run with the rule intact it shouldn't be too huge of a problem.


Also Poetic we already ruled earlier in the thread, that trolls shouldn't be running for CSM.

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#130 - 2013-02-05 01:51:13 UTC
rodyas wrote:
Also Poetic we already ruled earlier in the thread, that trolls shouldn't be running for CSM.
Right. Because Hans and Trebor don't like it. What the CSM needs are more sycophants.
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#131 - 2013-02-05 02:31:13 UTC
^ Well you and frying doom could form a platform and if its decent maybe I will support ya guys.

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne
Scooter McCabe
Thunderwaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#132 - 2013-02-05 04:24:16 UTC
I still have yet to get an answer on how CCP can protect your billing information but finds it impossible to keep your name from floating out there like drift wood coming in on the tide.
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#133 - 2013-02-05 04:42:48 UTC  |  Edited by: rodyas
Because CCP can control the billing information or who has access to it. But they cannot control you or another player. You can always blab your name out, then someone spills it or something.

CCP can lock credit info in a vault, but they can't lock you up in one.

I still just think its a personal choice right now. If there are enough candidates who feel this is not an issue, it might not be one. But if enough candidates don't run over this issue it could be one. Just like CCP, they make the personal choice to still post on the forums even after trolls. If they stopped posting cause of trolls, I am sure more action would commence.

Just go around asking people scooter if they will still run over this or not, and give us the tally. So we can see how bad the problem is.

* We demand graphs.

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
#134 - 2013-02-05 07:59:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Issler Dainze
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
Scooter McCabe wrote:
My real life qualifications matter how exactly? If anything people can use their real life "experience" to pettifog the fact they don't know what they are talking about game wise.

If it is truly your position that a candidates RL experience and qualifications are irrelevant to the question of whether or not they will be an effective CSM, then I fear you will have great difficulty convincing CCP Xhagen of the merits of your case.
How many current CSM actually included their real-life qualifications when running? I'm pretty sure nobody knows what Noah does for a job. I'm pretty sure writing a video game 30 years ago, back when all the man-power required was one or two people, is not a qualification. And what does Xhagen care what a CSMer does in real-life? He has no control over who is voted in or not.



I've made my RL qualifications pretty clear. I think I've even provided links to my current resume and even my patents in the 3D game space. I know for a fact if someone googled my RL name they would learn a heck of a lot about me.

As for the others, I think I've seen similar disclosures.

Here is a crazy idea, if you don't care about the real person behind the toon, then ignore them! Vote based on who they are in "Eve". If you think that provides you with enough information to make your game better, good for you!!!

On the other hand, if someone seemed to be pretty high profile in Eve worked a lot (you know what else works a lot, washing machines!) but in RL they can't point at a single thing that would qualify them make a reasonable decision about ideas that might require them to understand the trade offs of software engineering, game design within the context of Eve, or the technology that could make or break Eve, then vote away!!

Some of the future of Eve is in the hands of the CCP devs and will be affected by the CSM's own understand of Eve. Other parts of Eve will be shaped based on the technologies of Eve that allow external folks to make Eve better via stuff like the API's. Do you want to have folks in the CSM providing feedback that have no experience there?

I am not saying every CSM should be a software engineer. BUT! , and this is a big BUT, if the candidate seems to want to have a lot to do with the "tech" side they need to have a resume that indicates that they have a background that would let them contribute to those discussions.

So the more I think about it the more I think you NEED to know who you are voting for, not the toon, but the real person.

Eve players, CCP is right in letting you know who you are really voting for. In fact, I hope in the future the players look even closer to who they vote for. Make sure they have the qualifications to provide the quality feedback to CCP you earned with your vote!

Some of that you can see with who they are in Eve, some of that is all about the resume, if they spend even a minute talking about anything they would do as a CSM related to the "tech" or "software engineering" side of Eve DEMAND to see the resume, I manage a software development team in RL and I wouldn't allow anyone to work for me without at least that.

Issler
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#135 - 2013-02-05 08:06:59 UTC
Issler Dainze wrote:
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
Scooter McCabe wrote:
My real life qualifications matter how exactly? If anything people can use their real life "experience" to pettifog the fact they don't know what they are talking about game wise.

If it is truly your position that a candidates RL experience and qualifications are irrelevant to the question of whether or not they will be an effective CSM, then I fear you will have great difficulty convincing CCP Xhagen of the merits of your case.
How many current CSM actually included their real-life qualifications when running? I'm pretty sure nobody knows what Noah does for a job. I'm pretty sure writing a video game 30 years ago, back when all the man-power required was one or two people, is not a qualification. And what does Xhagen care what a CSMer does in real-life? He has no control over who is voted in or not.

I've made my RL qualifications pretty clear. I think I've even provided links to my current resume and even my patents in the 3D game space. I know for a fact if someone googled my RL name they would learn a heck of a lot about me.

As for the others, I think I've seen similar disclosures.

Issler
It's still a minority and not required. I believe someone else stated they looked into the candidacy posts of the 14 elected CSM and found only four using real-life experience as part of their platform.

The point is that real-life qualifications are not necessary. And it's certainly not something Xhagen would be concerned about, since he has no control (or does he *tinfoil*) over the elections.

Oh, and software patents are bad. They do not encourage innovation, they restrict it.
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
#136 - 2013-02-05 08:56:42 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Issler Dainze wrote:
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
Scooter McCabe wrote:
My real life qualifications matter how exactly? If anything people can use their real life "experience" to pettifog the fact they don't know what they are talking about game wise.

If it is truly your position that a candidates RL experience and qualifications are irrelevant to the question of whether or not they will be an effective CSM, then I fear you will have great difficulty convincing CCP Xhagen of the merits of your case.
How many current CSM actually included their real-life qualifications when running? I'm pretty sure nobody knows what Noah does for a job. I'm pretty sure writing a video game 30 years ago, back when all the man-power required was one or two people, is not a qualification. And what does Xhagen care what a CSMer does in real-life? He has no control over who is voted in or not.

I've made my RL qualifications pretty clear. I think I've even provided links to my current resume and even my patents in the 3D game space. I know for a fact if someone googled my RL name they would learn a heck of a lot about me.

As for the others, I think I've seen similar disclosures.

Issler
It's still a minority and not required. I believe someone else stated they looked into the candidacy posts of the 14 elected CSM and found only four using real-life experience as part of their platform.

The point is that real-life qualifications are not necessary. And it's certainly not something Xhagen would be concerned about, since he has no control (or does he *tinfoil*) over the elections.

Oh, and software patents are bad. They do not encourage innovation, they restrict it.



So not a fan of patents but I mention them just to prove I can claim some legitimacy in the space. I've only filed patents on my inventions when forced to by my current evil overlords. In most case I just did what I could to make money directly with my ideas. I believe patents are indefensible against anyone with deep enough pockets and have spent more of my time providing "prior art" from my own work to defeat the patent trolls than filing new patents.

I added to my prior post but my point is currently Eve seems to be evolving in two ways. One is the core game. To be a good CSM for this all you need to be is passionate about Eve, maybe have some relevant history in Eve to make you able to provide quality feedback to CCP. For someone to decide whether to vote for you, your Eve persona is all anyone needs.

However, the other part of Eve's future is the tech to let the community extend the game. To select a CSM that can speak to that, you HAVE to know who they are in RL. You mentioned in previous posts about the lack of information about candidates in some cases in terms of the RL qualifications.

Do you want some unknown person with no experience or relevant qualifications providing feedback to CCP about the technology that those third parities will either be blessed with or burdened by to make Eve better? I hope not.

So maybe some hybrid model is in order. You want to run on a straight "Eve" platform then no RL required, but the minute you start talking about how you want CCP to make the "tech" better, you'd better link some resumes and current references. Because some candidate might "love" some tech and talk about tessellation or APIs that will make Eve "awesome" but if they aren't speaking from a place of real experience they will NOT do right by the players.

Tech is RL and if a candidate want to run on their "tech" ideas to make Eve better, then I want to see their RL to know if they have any idea what they are talking about.

Issler
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#137 - 2013-02-05 09:18:13 UTC  |  Edited by: rodyas
I personally think CCP should add more computers to their game computer. Also CCP should adopt Steve Jobs binary, where all the 0s and 1s come in different colors, to help jazz up the whole tech stuff. Also chords should be attached and game turned on with all the drivers updated.

CSM 8 vote now.

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#138 - 2013-02-05 09:26:33 UTC  |  Edited by: rodyas
CCP should also develop some kind of pipe like network that connects all their computers, and allow data and other game type tech things to be sent to other computers, even though they are different rooms. Also they should upgrade to walkie talkies, that way they can still communicate even though, not in same room as well. Plus add finger print identification to their trash cans, so bums can't throw their trash away there so easily.

I read a tech magazine cover once, and used a TI-85 calculator in algrebra, eve-mail me for more tips.

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#139 - 2013-02-05 11:10:25 UTC
rodyas wrote:
CCP should also develop some kind of pipe like network that connects all their computers, and allow data and other game type tech things to be sent to other computers, even though they are different rooms. Also they should upgrade to walkie talkies, that way they can still communicate even though, not in same room as well. Plus add finger print identification to their trash cans, so bums can't throw their trash away there so easily.

I read a tech magazine cover once, and used a TI-85 calculator in algrebra, eve-mail me for more tips.
Part of me is really hoping that you're running for CSM8.
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#140 - 2013-02-05 20:38:11 UTC
For those interested, there are also some good comments on the issue at the following link:

http://poeticstanziel.blogspot.ca/2013/02/the-csm-it-aint-for-superheroes.html