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Players in NPC Corps should not be able to:

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Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#141 - 2013-02-04 16:19:22 UTC
I get it. This is an attempt to influence more players into playing the game where risk of combat related PvP is more probable.

It makes the flawed assumption, (in my opinion), that NPC corps represent an aspect that is too attractive for these players to ignore.

I respectfully disagree here.

I encounter a great many players who avoid all risk by other means, and in so doing lower the bar for players actually willing to play the game more competitively.

We need to stop demonizing the NPC corps this way. They are not horrible things, and they do give a support structure for players who want minimum presence of combat oriented PvP.
(They don't mind competing for sales orders to sell their ore or looted items, but the idea of being shot by other players simply has no appeal to them)

High sec, and quite often NPC corps, are where these players should be.

Their subscriptions to the game fund CCP's improvements for all of us, in addition to providing industrial resources desired in many areas.

You can take the player out of the NPC corp and high sec, but as has been demonstrated by too many too often, you can't take the high sec out of the player.
If they want to avoid combat oriented PvP, they have proven that they will do it no matter where they exist in the game.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Amenotep Polo
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#142 - 2013-02-04 16:44:43 UTC
What is the deal with NPC corps, why do people keep on complaining about them?

Is it because they can't be decc'd? Hell if you want pvp i got news for you, high sec might not be the most optimal place.

Also, destroy npc corps and prices will skyrocket to the point that a frigate will be an hard loss.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#143 - 2013-02-04 16:51:10 UTC
Fey Ivory wrote:
Jenn...

And thats why i say lets every CORP, have the ability to bribe concord in high sec, if they wish, so all can have wardec imunity, exactly as a NPC corp have, your choise... then if it should be more costlier, that i leave unsead... the cost for a wardec is also a joke, highsecurity space is called that for a reason


EVe features non-consensual pvp in all areas of space. You suggestion goes against a core principle of EVE.

I don't think npc corps should be war dec vulnerable, but the price players pay for the protection is tto low. AND it's uneven, npc corp mission/incursions runners and explorers pay taxes, no one else in an npc corp really does does.
Amenotep Polo
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#144 - 2013-02-04 16:55:37 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Fey Ivory wrote:
Jenn...

And thats why i say lets every CORP, have the ability to bribe concord in high sec, if they wish, so all can have wardec imunity, exactly as a NPC corp have, your choise... then if it should be more costlier, that i leave unsead... the cost for a wardec is also a joke, highsecurity space is called that for a reason


EVe features non-consensual pvp in all areas of space. You suggestion goes against a core principle of EVE.

I don't think npc corps should be war dec vulnerable, but the price players pay for the protection is tto low. AND it's uneven, npc corp mission/incursions runners and explorers pay taxes, no one else in an npc corp really does does.


HURR DURR LETS KILL NEW PLAYERS IN A MINING FRIGATE DURR HURR - This seems to be the reasoning behind people that want npc corps dead.

If anyone is an half decent target, he won't be in a npc corp, rest assured. And if you want pvp why not faction warfare or pirating in low sec or null sec or even wormholes, why bother the players that have no experience or friends to fight back?

Honestly though, 90% of war decs are pure cowardice/kill mail feeding crap.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#145 - 2013-02-04 16:56:09 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
The benefit npc corp members get (immunity to war decs, a KEY mechanic in high sec) is huge


Yet traders are not only immune to war decs, but even immune to suicide ganking and make so much more money than NPC mission bear's its hilarious.

You see, the thing is, you will NEVER force someone who doesn't want to undock and die to you & your buddies to do so. Ever.

Futile attempts to screw with the existing status quo to attempt to make this possible (hint: it's not) is....pointless.


i really hate when people like you pop up, pretending you know someone else's motivations.

Let me state clearly, i don't pvp much and don't particularly want to kill anyone who isn't a serp or sansha. I have a "live and let live" libertarian philosophy....

....As long as everyone is playing by the same rules. The fact is, people in npc corps aren't paying enough for their advantage, and those of us in player corps (as the game makers intended) are basically punished by being more vulnerable. The scales need balancing.

i don't want anyone to be pushed out of npc corps, out of high sec, into pvp etc etc. I want an internally consistent game product.. it seems that ccp did too with the introduction of the npc corp tax. I hope they expand on this idea.

I'm sorry some of you can't see past narrow material interests.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#146 - 2013-02-04 16:57:39 UTC
Drake Doe wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Fey Ivory wrote:
I think you should see what the "oldies" in CAS does, they make events, as organicing nullsec battlefleet, they organice fleet mining ops... they set up pages with information about fitting, mining, ships to fly, you name it, they will be there to help you, and they do it for no profit at all, or expect anything n return except being helpfull, they ewen help new players get jumpclones so they can faster andeasier get down into null and more affordable clones... CAS is bascially run as a player corp, with the exception people are still free to do what they like, there are no forced or do this to be able to yoin... CAS is a shining example of a start corps, and it is thanks to the "oldies" that help people into EVE regardless if you want to fight in null, create industries or mine... probably why people stay in CAS, couse they have fun, and playing agame is about to have fun and feeling you are wanted

And a slight reminder, i am in CAS, it have 500-1500 people active depending on day, that is ONE off twelve start corps, not to mention the twelve holding corps that exist... you crunsh the numbers of players, and you soon see that we are significant % of Eve, and most important of all, its what brings Eve its new blood, be very carefull what changes you cry for...

Eve is a old game, and of all those that start playing, im pretty sure that CAS have the higest % of new people that stay, npc corps shouldent be restricted more, they should allow more features like making POS, and instead give ALL corps the ability or Choise to bribe concord like a NPC corp have... then people have same features, and level playing field... and as some others have said, you cant force the donkey to play as you want, you cant bribe the donkey with more carrots, a dead donkey wont move, no matter how much you try to force it, bribe it...

We can argue back and fourth what Eve should be, and we wont agree, so lets agree that we love Eve and let each to their own game !


No. The whole "let each to their own game" thing is a cop out. We play this game together, and no matter how many eventys or other crap CAS has is irrelevant.

The benefit npc corp members get (immunity to war decs, a KEY mechanic in high sec) is huge, and a huge price should be paid for it. 11% corp tax on mission runners and explorers and no tax on anything else + some minor restrictions like not being able to have a POS is not a steep enough cost.

While the OP might be a bit over the top, the price for wardec immunity should be higher. I don't advocate making npc corps war-decable (or any situation that "pushes" people out of npc corps), it's just that the current situation is too "have your cake and eat it too" to me, and should be modified. CCP got a good start with the 11% tax, they need to do more.


Since war dec immunity is pretty much the only advantage of npc corps, why not just get it removed and end this dated argument? As long as necessary shields for new players (2 or 3 month old toons) so they aren't immediately thrown into the fire and turned off to Eve. A decent proposition imo is that individuals in npc corps could be war decced for the full price of war deccing an entire corp, even though the price won't discourage people from spamming war decs at people in npc corps.


This is basically the "individual war dec" idea that's been floating around.

i don't like it, it creates a whole new game mechanic that we don't need. people in npc corps should not be war-deccable, they should simply pay more for the protections that they receive IMO.
De'Veldrin
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#147 - 2013-02-04 17:03:43 UTC
I am going to attempt to be constructive even though every nerve in my being is screaming that this it a troll within a troll within a mystery, wrapped in an enimatic troll.


Sol Weinstein wrote:

1. Place bounties on players
2. Place bounties on corps

Why not? Other players can place bounties on them, so why can't they reciprocate?
And in order to place a bounty on a corp that may be harrassing them, a new player has to join a player corp long enough to place the bounty?

Sol Weinstein wrote:

3. Exist outside of systems less then 0.9 (Maybe 0.8) *

All this would lead to is old players significantly hiking the prices of things new players need but can't get to because they aren't located in these starter areas. Reading your comments, it seems you're no longer supporting this - so you should actually remove it from the post, not just flag it.

Sol Weinstein wrote:

4. Rent manufacturing or research slots in any station that is not owned by their NPC corp
(This goes both ways. Those slots should be reserved for the members of that NPC corp.)

You do realize that ALL the research slots in highsec are owned by an NPC corp (aside from the POS ones). What is this even trying to solve??


Sol Weinstein wrote:

8. Place market orders and contracts. Market ORDERS. They can still buy and sell using the 'immediate' function.

Again, why shouldn't they be able to compete on the same level as other players in market pvp?

Sol Weinstein wrote:

3.a. Perhaps it should be that they are allowed to enter systems lower than 0.9 (0.8), but they should be restricted to what they can do in these systems. I don't want to suggest that 'anyone should be able to fire upon them as if in a war', but that might be an option.

Seriously? So if they dare to venture outside of their "reservations" everyone can shoot them? If I was a new player, I'd quit.


These suggestions, and I use that term charitably, are terrible, and very poorly thought through.

De'Veldrin's Corollary (to Malcanis' Law): Any idea that seeks to limit the ability of a large nullsec bloc to do something in the name of allowing more small groups into sov null will inevitably make it that much harder for small groups to enter sov null.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#148 - 2013-02-04 17:06:47 UTC
Amenotep Polo wrote:
What is the deal with NPC corps, why do people keep on complaining about them?


Because the current NPC corp scheme goes against the "spirit" of EVE online and has been allowed to go on for too long.

NPC corps should be for role players (who are willing to accept steep restrictions in the name of role play), new players, and casual players who don't have much time. They should NOT be hiding places for rich veteran players who can fly big expensive ships.

I proabably wouldn't go as far as the op in balancing the NPC corps. i would add some kind of transaction tax or docking fee to npc players who haul stuff and some kind of transaction tax to npc corp traders. This would make it more fair to npc corp mission/incursion runners and explorers, and a more ideal situation overall.
Amenotep Polo
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#149 - 2013-02-04 17:10:29 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Amenotep Polo wrote:
What is the deal with NPC corps, why do people keep on complaining about them?


Because the current NPC corp scheme goes against the "spirit" of EVE online and has been allowed to go on for too long.

NPC corps should be for role players (who are willing to accept steep restrictions in the name of role play), new players, and casual players who don't have much time. They should NOT be hiding places for rich veteran players who can fly big expensive ships.

I proabably wouldn't go as far as the op in balancing the NPC corps. i would add some kind of transaction tax or docking fee to npc players who haul stuff and some kind of transaction tax to npc corp traders. This would make it more fair to npc corp mission/incursion runners and explorers, and a more ideal situation overall.


While i understand your concerns i feel that this isn't really an issue unless there's a big chunk of the player base in these corps. So my question would be, what is the percentage of high-sec players in npc corps?

If whoever is complaining doesn't know the number then they should politely shut up.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#150 - 2013-02-04 17:14:24 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
....As long as everyone is playing by the same rules. The fact is, people in npc corps aren't paying enough for their advantage, and those of us in player corps (as the game makers intended) are basically punished by being more vulnerable. The scales need balancing.

i don't want anyone to be pushed out of npc corps, out of high sec, into pvp etc etc. I want an internally consistent game product.. it seems that ccp did too with the introduction of the npc corp tax. I hope they expand on this idea.

I'm sorry some of you can't see past narrow material interests.

You were responding to another poster here, so pardon my intrusion with this.

I must question the concept that we are playing with a uniform set of rules, in the context you presented here.

Are you suggesting that players in NPC corps, who are working inside high security space, should face more restrictions?

I am thinking on the aspect here, that the players working within high security space are performing actions which, directly or indirectly, support and benefit the PvP elements of the game outside of high sec space.

I feel placing a greater burden on these players may well result in our PvP activities being affected by the consequences. I feel these effects may not be desirable by either side.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#151 - 2013-02-04 17:19:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Nikk Narrel wrote:


We need to stop demonizing the NPC corps this way. They are not horrible things, and they do give a support structure for players who want minimum presence of combat oriented PvP.
(They don't mind competing for sales orders to sell their ore or looted items, but the idea of being shot by other players simply has no appeal to them)
Precisely why they need to go.

Maybe we could bar them from participating in the player economy and they can grind up a second kind of currency only usable to buy things that can't have an effect on the economy. Then they could be actual 'PvE exclusive' characters
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#152 - 2013-02-04 17:20:11 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
....As long as everyone is playing by the same rules. The fact is, people in npc corps aren't paying enough for their advantage, and those of us in player corps (as the game makers intended) are basically punished by being more vulnerable. The scales need balancing.

i don't want anyone to be pushed out of npc corps, out of high sec, into pvp etc etc. I want an internally consistent game product.. it seems that ccp did too with the introduction of the npc corp tax. I hope they expand on this idea.

I'm sorry some of you can't see past narrow material interests.

You were responding to another poster here, so pardon my intrusion with this.

I must question the concept that we are playing with a uniform set of rules, in the context you presented here.

Are you suggesting that players in NPC corps, who are working inside high security space, should face more restrictions?


Yes, within reason, in the same way the 11% npc corp tax was reasonable.

Quote:

I am thinking on the aspect here, that the players working within high security space are performing actions which, directly or indirectly, support and benefit the PvP elements of the game outside of high sec space.

I feel placing a greater burden on these players may well result in our PvP activities being affected by the consequences. I feel these effects may not be desirable by either side.


Irrelevant.

The PVPrs can and should adapt to any change a rebalancing introduces (not that I think it will be a problem, the EVE market has survived much worse than what I suggest, like the drone poo changes). Saying "this unbalanced thing help some other group of players" is not sound reason to resist reform.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#153 - 2013-02-04 17:21:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Amenotep Polo wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:


EVe features non-consensual pvp in all areas of space. You suggestion goes against a core principle of EVE.

I don't think npc corps should be war dec vulnerable, but the price players pay for the protection is tto low. AND it's uneven, npc corp mission/incursions runners and explorers pay taxes, no one else in an npc corp really does does.


HURR DURR LETS KILL NEW PLAYERS IN A MINING FRIGATE DURR HURR - This seems to be the reasoning behind people that want npc corps dead.
We've already established that NPC corps hurt newbies, not help them. Why some people feel risk-adverse veterans should be able to steamroll newbies economically is beyond me. Maybe this NPC corp defending is just a front for anti-newbie, anti-casual sentiment.
Amenotep Polo wrote:
Honestly though, 90% of war decs are pure cowardice/kill mail feeding crap.

This is because veterans and rich highsec targets, the ones who fly in multi-bil loadouts and could easily afford escorts and defense, through things like NPC corps, are the best at avoiding wardecs. Ban NPC corps and remove wardec evasion, you put everyone on an even footing. The newbie goes unnoticed and conspicuous wealth and investing all your cumulative wealth into isk grinding incurs costs of their own.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#154 - 2013-02-04 17:22:01 UTC
Amenotep Polo wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Amenotep Polo wrote:
What is the deal with NPC corps, why do people keep on complaining about them?


Because the current NPC corp scheme goes against the "spirit" of EVE online and has been allowed to go on for too long.

NPC corps should be for role players (who are willing to accept steep restrictions in the name of role play), new players, and casual players who don't have much time. They should NOT be hiding places for rich veteran players who can fly big expensive ships.

I proabably wouldn't go as far as the op in balancing the NPC corps. i would add some kind of transaction tax or docking fee to npc players who haul stuff and some kind of transaction tax to npc corp traders. This would make it more fair to npc corp mission/incursion runners and explorers, and a more ideal situation overall.


While i understand your concerns i feel that this isn't really an issue unless there's a big chunk of the player base in these corps. So my question would be, what is the percentage of high-sec players in npc corps?

If whoever is complaining doesn't know the number then they should politely shut up.


so it's not an issue because lots of people abuse the same thing?

By that thinking, CCP wouldn't have fixed Faction Warfare Farming, the old incursions, or the 400 mil per hour tracking linked titans in forsaken hubs.......
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#155 - 2013-02-04 17:23:22 UTC
Amenotep Polo wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Fey Ivory wrote:
Jenn...

And thats why i say lets every CORP, have the ability to bribe concord in high sec, if they wish, so all can have wardec imunity, exactly as a NPC corp have, your choise... then if it should be more costlier, that i leave unsead... the cost for a wardec is also a joke, highsecurity space is called that for a reason


EVe features non-consensual pvp in all areas of space. You suggestion goes against a core principle of EVE.

I don't think npc corps should be war dec vulnerable, but the price players pay for the protection is tto low. AND it's uneven, npc corp mission/incursions runners and explorers pay taxes, no one else in an npc corp really does does.


HURR DURR LETS KILL NEW PLAYERS IN A MINING FRIGATE DURR HURR - This seems to be the reasoning behind people that want npc corps dead.

If anyone is an half decent target, he won't be in a npc corp, rest assured. And if you want pvp why not faction warfare or pirating in low sec or null sec or even wormholes, why bother the players that have no experience or friends to fight back?

Honestly though, 90% of war decs are pure cowardice/kill mail feeding crap.


In other words, you haven't read a word I typed and are just a troll.

Thanks for the confirmation, and your brilliant contribution to this discussion.
Drake Doe
88Th Tax Haven
#156 - 2013-02-04 17:25:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Drake Doe
Aren Madigan wrote:
Drake Doe wrote:

Since war dec immunity is pretty much the only advantage of npc corps, why not just get it removed and end this dated argument? As long as necessary shields for new players (2 or 3 month old toons) so they aren't immediately thrown into the fire and turned off to Eve. A decent proposition imo is that individuals in npc corps could be war decced for the full price of war deccing an entire corp, even though the price won't discourage people from spamming war decs at people in npc corps.


As much as I disagree with single player wardecs and think it should be more where kill rights can be long term, multiple kills and able to be given away, if single player wardecs were put in, should be SP based on when they are allowed for the simple fact of some players start and then quit for a long while before trying again, so an older character isn't necessary a ready character.

I think if this ia implemented it should be between only the war deccer and the person decced, and these individual decs would be open to everyone.

"The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! pops more corn" ---Evernub--
Fey Ivory
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#157 - 2013-02-04 17:30:54 UTC
Jenn

What it should cost i guess could be discussed, and i to some extent agree with you on a few levels... one of wich is when people(alts)in NPC corps run huge amount of goods in support of corps that is in war... i myself sell minerals ewen run them to station where people want them, i just have one principle i dont run "goods" if people are at war... im not sure if its possible, but if it is, is that if you pick up a contract from a part that is in war, and you transport that, you would be a "legal" wartarget for as long as you carry the goods... iwe talked to Nat about this and though im very pro for wardec imunity for NPC corps, it shouldent be used to affect those that do war... if that makes sense
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#158 - 2013-02-04 17:31:03 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
I am thinking on the aspect here, that the players working within high security space are performing actions which, directly or indirectly, support and benefit the PvP elements of the game outside of high sec space.

I feel placing a greater burden on these players may well result in our PvP activities being affected by the consequences. I feel these effects may not be desirable by either side.


Irrelevant.

The PVPrs can and should adapt to any change a rebalancing introduces (not that I think it will be a problem, the EVE market has survived much worse than what I suggest, like the drone poo changes). Saying "this unbalanced thing help some other group of players" is not sound reason to resist reform.

The baker bakes, the carpenter builds, the fisherman sells his catch.

Each has a purpose, and a role to play. EVE allows many to play as they choose, within it's own limits.

Of course I respect self interest, only a fool denies wanting to improve their own existence when possible.
To me, it is sounding like you wish to change the roles of other players. Those who do not play within your defined roles must adapt.

Yes, this is self interest, but is it enlightened? Or will it result in pointless frustration for too many players to be considered a good change?

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Qaidan Alenko
Eezo-Lution Inc.
#159 - 2013-02-04 17:40:59 UTC
Fey Ivory wrote:
Jenn

What it should cost i guess could be discussed, and i to some extent agree with you on a few levels... one of wich is when people(alts)in NPC corps run huge amount of goods in support of corps that is in war... i myself sell minerals ewen run them to station where people want them, i just have one principle i dont run "goods" if people are at war... im not sure if its possible, but if it is, is that if you pick up a contract from a part that is in war, and you transport that, you would be a "legal" wartarget for as long as you carry the goods... iwe talked to Nat about this and though im very pro for wardec imunity for NPC corps, it shouldent be used to affect those that do war... if that makes sense

Something like this I could get behind...

It could even be taken a step forward with using neutral (NPC Corp or even PRC) boosts/reps... you assist someone who is in an active war, you get flagged to the oposing side for the duration of the war as a collaberator.
Go ahead... Get your Wham on!!!
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#160 - 2013-02-04 17:52:11 UTC
Qaidan Alenko wrote:
Fey Ivory wrote:
Jenn

What it should cost i guess could be discussed, and i to some extent agree with you on a few levels... one of wich is when people(alts)in NPC corps run huge amount of goods in support of corps that is in war... i myself sell minerals ewen run them to station where people want them, i just have one principle i dont run "goods" if people are at war... im not sure if its possible, but if it is, is that if you pick up a contract from a part that is in war, and you transport that, you would be a "legal" wartarget for as long as you carry the goods... iwe talked to Nat about this and though im very pro for wardec imunity for NPC corps, it shouldent be used to affect those that do war... if that makes sense

Something like this I could get behind...

It could even be taken a step forward with using neutral (NPC Corp or even PRC) boosts/reps... you assist someone who is in an active war, you get flagged to the oposing side for the duration of the war as a collaberator.

You sound close to suggesting an embargo be made possible against corps.

After all, having some group under siege lacks impact if they can maintain their supply lines. This is a perfectly valid real world practice and strategy.

Does it make sense in game terms, however?

Would you just limit contracts naming the corp or it's members specifically?
Would you expand this to the market, so merchants can choose to only permit sales to blue clients?
(Allowing sales to hostiles would be traceable and grounds for a war dec, which while very real world based, may or may not be advisable in the game)

Economic support in a conflict is undeniably a major influence of success in warfare.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...