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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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Players in NPC Corps should not be able to:

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Dave stark
#121 - 2013-02-04 09:52:16 UTC
Sol Weinstein wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:

Stuff.


Thank you for finally admitting you have nothing to offer to the discussion and bowing out.



so you're admitting there is no problem that you're trying to fix, and you just listed a bunch of stupid changes to waste every one's time in the most elaborate troll i've seen in a while?

ok, glad we've cleared that up.
Sol Weinstein
Lunatic Warfare Federation
#122 - 2013-02-04 09:53:56 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Sol Weinstein wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:

Stuff.


Thank you for finally admitting you have nothing to offer to the discussion and bowing out.



so you're admitting there is no problem that you're trying to fix, and you just listed a bunch of stupid changes to waste every one's time in the most elaborate troll i've seen in a while?

ok, glad we've cleared that up.


No. I am offering you the same respect you are offering me. I am choosing to ignore your own rant and just pick and choose what I want to see.

You've pointed out quite clearly that you have a distaste for my ideas. Your negative opinion and attitude have been noted.

You may move along now.

Thank you.
CCP Gargant
C C P
C C P Alliance
#123 - 2013-02-04 10:28:18 UTC
I cleaned up this thread somewhat. Please try to stay on the topic at hand and refrain from name calling.

CCP Gargant | EVE Universe esports Coordinator
Whitehound
#124 - 2013-02-04 10:38:34 UTC
Sol Weinstein wrote:
1. Place bounties on players
2. Place bounties on corps

3. Exist outside of systems less then 0.9 (Maybe 0.8) *

4. Rent manufacturing or research slots in any station that is not owned by their NPC corp
(This goes both ways. Those slots should be reserved for the members of that NPC corp.)
5. Have jump-clones in any station not owned by their NPC corp.

6. Going with #3; be able to mine ice or ore outside of their allowed systems (1.0 or 0.9; alternatively 0.8 if allowed in those) **

7. Activate modules on players that are not in other NPC corps. ***

8. Place market orders and contracts. Market ORDERS. They can still buy and sell using the 'immediate' function.


3.a. Perhaps it should be that they are allowed to enter systems lower than 0.9 (0.8), but they should be restricted to what they can do in these systems. I don't want to suggest that 'anyone should be able to fire upon them as if in a war', but that might be an option.

  1. Can be circumvented by creating a 1-man corp with an alt in it, who never undocks but only places bounties and does so more or less anonymously.
  2. see 1.
  3. Any mission leading out of 1.0-0.8 space would have to be declined, all the belts would be empty at 18:00 and far before the next shutdown. Gankers would be ganking Jita, the Perimeter gate and other market hubs 24/7, because it is all that would be left to gank.
  4. See 1., also there are many free manufacturing slots that it might not even matter.
  5. Most will already not have many jump clones as they can only be had at 8.0 or higher standing.
  6. See 3., also note there are no ice fields in 0.8-1.0 systems.
  7. Not possible, because this is a PvP game. Denying combat with other players is against the fundamental concept of this game.
  8. See 1., most will create a 1-man corp only to get the extra number of corporation contracts.

Nothing you suggest would actually change something, but create a lot of ghost corporations and you have not stated what your true problem with players in NPC corps is.

By the way, if you want to remove an idea from the list the use the s-tag and /s-tag to show this. For example: bad idea.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#125 - 2013-02-04 10:43:34 UTC
Destination SkillQueue wrote:

What you describe is propably intentional, but it might not seem that way to you, since you're missing one important reason the NPC corps exist in the first place. That is to provide a final safe haven for all players to recuperate and lick their wounds. It's there to make sure you can't be griefed out of the game by in-game means. That reason for existing is specifically targeted for old and new players. No matter what enemies you make and how many people you **** off there needs to be an area where you can go get back on your feet and gather resources to try again. It's where people go when they're tired of the normal stressful drama and just want to get away from it all for a while. It ensures, that you always have other options besides quitting the game when you're driven to a corner or just need a break.



I see this.
However if you managed to **** off a lot of people, to have many enemies and so on then using NPC corp to evade the consquences of it is just what I consider an exploit.

Anyway I'm not saying NPC copr should be removed, only that for an experienced players shouldn't be more atractive and convenient than a player corp; at least not as long term solution.

This is also an element of weakness for player corps. Actually (this is mostly for hig sec corp) there isn't a great incentive in respect of NPC corp. So, as soon as one smells "troubles" is often better to just desert and hide under the NPC blanket.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#126 - 2013-02-04 11:14:21 UTC
Sol Weinstein wrote:
Trying to solve the NPC Exploit problem and the issues it creates. Yes, I suppose it is my term. I'm sorry if it doesn't fit into your world. It's the term I use.


You need to explain the term so that a discussion can actually have any meaning or purpose.

Sol Weinstein wrote:
Your initial tone is a bit aggressive so I am just going to ignore the rest of of it and just move along. I will take your advice and assume you are a "gormless twit" and realize that I probably can't make you see the nature of the post.


Your inability to explain your thinking or provide any rationale behind your initial ex cathedra statements indicates that you are probably attention seeking, if not trolling, and certainly not interested in actual discussion about addressing some issue that concerns you. Your tone throughout this thread has been dismissive, and you appear to only be interested in people supporting your position, rather than explaining what your position actually is.

So please, take the time to think about what "The NPC Exploit Problem" is. Define it in words and write those words in this thread, so that people attempting to critique or comment have some idea about your motivations behind preventing people in NPC corporations from actually playing the game.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Buzzmong
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#127 - 2013-02-04 11:15:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Buzzmong
To OP: what do 2000+ extra one player and easily recycled corps would be bring to the game?
As that's what would happen should the OP's suggestions be implemented, and it's very easy if a little bit inconvenient to avoid wardeccs via them anyway.


As an aside, main pros and cons of NPC Corps as they stand:

+ No wardecs
+ People on corp chat
+ No hassle by other players to constantly fleet up and no threats to be kicked from corp if you don't want to or can't due to RL.

- Taxes which go to the NPCs and don't stay in the hands of players.
- No corp email.
- No corp hangers.
- No POS's (and therefore the resultant manfacturing/research benefits) or POCO etc...

The latter section is quite penalising, hence why there are plenty of one man corps in existance already.

Edit:

What puzzles me most about this is that after reading through the thread it seems to be the OP thinks being in an NPC corp somehow makes players invulnerable, or that it some how changes the nature of war.
It doesn't.

Whether a target is in a player corp or NPC corp makes no real difference in High Sec, you'll still end up using the same weapons (ie, Artillery based ships) and playing the same station games regardless. Catch said target in a belt or in a mission and there's no discernable difference whether they're in a player corp or not, except that Concord come a-knocking.
If they're in a player corp, sure there's no Concord, but you've still got to pay the Wardec fee, so it's not a free kill in either case.


I think the OP has posted these ideas simply because he wants to shoot someone who is in an NPC corp and is afraid of Concord and hasn't realised killing a wardec target still has an isk cost.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#128 - 2013-02-04 11:20:42 UTC
Sol Weinstein wrote:
This post wasn't about multiple characters on the same account created to avoid the system.


So what's the point then? Your original demands are so easily bypassed that the effort of implementing them would be wasted thirty seconds after they go live.

Sol Weinstein wrote:
This post is about people (maybe not you specifically) using the 'protection' of an NPC corp to act like a player in a PRC.


Players in NPC corps are already restricted by not being able to anchor structures, run a POS, claim sovereignty, or declare wars. Thus they cannot act like a player in a PRC.

Sol Weinstein wrote:
A second character (on the same account or other account) should be used to play in a different style than the others.


Are you telling other people how they should play the game?

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Reuben Johnson
Gal-Min Industries
#129 - 2013-02-04 12:03:36 UTC
Sol Weinstein wrote:
I have made some changes to the original post. I didn't remove anything, but simply added highlights or clarifications where needed.

So the new list is:

1. Place bounties on players
2. Place bounties on corps
3. Rent manufacturing or research slots in any station that is not owned by their NPC corp
(This goes both ways. Those slots should be reserved for the members of that NPC corp.)
4. Have jump-clones in any station not owned by their NPC corp.
5. Place market orders and contracts. Market ORDERS. They can still buy and sell using the 'immediate' function. **


** This one is probably the target of the next form of rage by people who disagree with me. And I recognize that it does hurt true new players. However, If I were the CEO of one of the NPC corps, I would find it very odd that even the lowest employee could make trades on behalf of the corporation.

Thank you.

1. no, since NPC players cannot wardec, their only alternaitve to borderline greifing by someone more powerfull is bounties.
2. have no problem with that
3. As long as it works both ways, not to much of a problem with it, but not sure if that'll change anything, just more manufacturing/R&D alts being created, a la trading alts. most NPC corp players that do a lot of manf/R&D have POS alts anyways.
4. make them or have them?
5. still pondering the pro's and con's of that one. while it would discourage NPC hauler/trader alts, that's a small minority in NPC Corps, you'd be hurting a lot of players for the actions of a few. There has to be another way to deal with a minority without screwing the majority.
Drake Doe
88Th Tax Haven
#130 - 2013-02-04 13:02:50 UTC
Simpler solution, make players in npc corps individually war dec able. Possibly not till a new player's second or third month playing to avoid abuse.

"The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! pops more corn" ---Evernub--
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#131 - 2013-02-04 13:07:43 UTC
What problem is it you're (badly flailing at) trying to solve here, exactly?
Ruskarn Andedare
Lion Investments
#132 - 2013-02-04 13:10:50 UTC
Sol Weinstein wrote:

...

There are many aspects of this game that are ruined, just ruined, by actions of players in NPC corporations. The bounty thing is one of the major ones. Hopefully, someone out there will agree that the leash needs to be tightened on most of the people that use the NPC Corporation Exploit when performing harmful actions towards another player or corporation.

...


Please, please, please, could you list the aspects of the game being ruined by players being permitted to be in NPC corporations so we can judge the suggestions for their impact on the problems you see as well as their impact on new players, players booted from corp, casual players, pro griefers, etc.
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#133 - 2013-02-04 13:23:09 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Sol Weinstein wrote:
Trying to solve the NPC Exploit problem and the issues it creates. Yes, I suppose it is my term. I'm sorry if it doesn't fit into your world. It's the term I use.


You need to explain the term so that a discussion can actually have any meaning or purpose.



This.


Morrigan LeSante wrote:
What problem is it you're (badly flailing at) trying to solve here, exactly?


And this.

None of your "solutions" have any real meaning if you cannot adequately explain the problem that it is attempting to address in the first place.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#134 - 2013-02-04 13:24:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Sol Weinstein wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:


No, the ONLY possibvle motivation you could have is you want people to play just like you do



Wrong. It is not the ONLY possible motivation. And I'll prove that by....

Jenn aSide wrote:

I haven't read the thread


Thank you for giving an opinion on a topic you admit to not educating yourself on. You will be taken seriously when you read the thread, and all the follow-up posts.

Thank you.


ROFL,

So, you're really telling me that you didn't understand that I was agreeing with you Sol and being sarcastic to the people who were poo-pooing your idea? And then havign the nerve to tell ME to read lol.

You're just plain brilliant. -1 like.
Fey Ivory
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#135 - 2013-02-04 13:30:30 UTC
I think you should see what the "oldies" in CAS does, they make events, as organicing nullsec battlefleet, they organice fleet mining ops... they set up pages with information about fitting, mining, ships to fly, you name it, they will be there to help you, and they do it for no profit at all, or expect anything n return except being helpfull, they ewen help new players get jumpclones so they can faster andeasier get down into null and more affordable clones... CAS is bascially run as a player corp, with the exception people are still free to do what they like, there are no forced or do this to be able to yoin... CAS is a shining example of a start corps, and it is thanks to the "oldies" that help people into EVE regardless if you want to fight in null, create industries or mine... probably why people stay in CAS, couse they have fun, and playing agame is about to have fun and feeling you are wanted

And a slight reminder, i am in CAS, it have 500-1500 people active depending on day, that is ONE off twelve start corps, not to mention the twelve holding corps that exist... you crunsh the numbers of players, and you soon see that we are significant % of Eve, and most important of all, its what brings Eve its new blood, be very carefull what changes you cry for...

Eve is a old game, and of all those that start playing, im pretty sure that CAS have the higest % of new people that stay, npc corps shouldent be restricted more, they should allow more features like making POS, and instead give ALL corps the ability or Choise to bribe concord like a NPC corp have... then people have same features, and level playing field... and as some others have said, you cant force the donkey to play as you want, you cant bribe the donkey with more carrots, a dead donkey wont move, no matter how much you try to force it, bribe it...

We can argue back and fourth what Eve should be, and we wont agree, so lets agree that we love Eve and let each to their own game !
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#136 - 2013-02-04 13:40:18 UTC
Fey Ivory wrote:
I think you should see what the "oldies" in CAS does, they make events, as organicing nullsec battlefleet, they organice fleet mining ops... they set up pages with information about fitting, mining, ships to fly, you name it, they will be there to help you, and they do it for no profit at all, or expect anything n return except being helpfull, they ewen help new players get jumpclones so they can faster andeasier get down into null and more affordable clones... CAS is bascially run as a player corp, with the exception people are still free to do what they like, there are no forced or do this to be able to yoin... CAS is a shining example of a start corps, and it is thanks to the "oldies" that help people into EVE regardless if you want to fight in null, create industries or mine... probably why people stay in CAS, couse they have fun, and playing agame is about to have fun and feeling you are wanted

And a slight reminder, i am in CAS, it have 500-1500 people active depending on day, that is ONE off twelve start corps, not to mention the twelve holding corps that exist... you crunsh the numbers of players, and you soon see that we are significant % of Eve, and most important of all, its what brings Eve its new blood, be very carefull what changes you cry for...

Eve is a old game, and of all those that start playing, im pretty sure that CAS have the higest % of new people that stay, npc corps shouldent be restricted more, they should allow more features like making POS, and instead give ALL corps the ability or Choise to bribe concord like a NPC corp have... then people have same features, and level playing field... and as some others have said, you cant force the donkey to play as you want, you cant bribe the donkey with more carrots, a dead donkey wont move, no matter how much you try to force it, bribe it...

We can argue back and fourth what Eve should be, and we wont agree, so lets agree that we love Eve and let each to their own game !


No. The whole "let each to their own game" thing is a cop out. We play this game together, and no matter how many eventys or other crap CAS has is irrelevant.

The benefit npc corp members get (immunity to war decs, a KEY mechanic in high sec) is huge, and a huge price should be paid for it. 11% corp tax on mission runners and explorers and no tax on anything else + some minor restrictions like not being able to have a POS is not a steep enough cost.

While the OP might be a bit over the top, the price for wardec immunity should be higher. I don't advocate making npc corps war-decable (or any situation that "pushes" people out of npc corps), it's just that the current situation is too "have your cake and eat it too" to me, and should be modified. CCP got a good start with the 11% tax, they need to do more.
Fey Ivory
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#137 - 2013-02-04 13:49:14 UTC
Jenn...

And thats why i say lets every CORP, have the ability to bribe concord in high sec, if they wish, so all can have wardec imunity, exactly as a NPC corp have, your choise... then if it should be more costlier, that i leave unsead... the cost for a wardec is also a joke, highsecurity space is called that for a reason
Drake Doe
88Th Tax Haven
#138 - 2013-02-04 13:58:58 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Fey Ivory wrote:
I think you should see what the "oldies" in CAS does, they make events, as organicing nullsec battlefleet, they organice fleet mining ops... they set up pages with information about fitting, mining, ships to fly, you name it, they will be there to help you, and they do it for no profit at all, or expect anything n return except being helpfull, they ewen help new players get jumpclones so they can faster andeasier get down into null and more affordable clones... CAS is bascially run as a player corp, with the exception people are still free to do what they like, there are no forced or do this to be able to yoin... CAS is a shining example of a start corps, and it is thanks to the "oldies" that help people into EVE regardless if you want to fight in null, create industries or mine... probably why people stay in CAS, couse they have fun, and playing agame is about to have fun and feeling you are wanted

And a slight reminder, i am in CAS, it have 500-1500 people active depending on day, that is ONE off twelve start corps, not to mention the twelve holding corps that exist... you crunsh the numbers of players, and you soon see that we are significant % of Eve, and most important of all, its what brings Eve its new blood, be very carefull what changes you cry for...

Eve is a old game, and of all those that start playing, im pretty sure that CAS have the higest % of new people that stay, npc corps shouldent be restricted more, they should allow more features like making POS, and instead give ALL corps the ability or Choise to bribe concord like a NPC corp have... then people have same features, and level playing field... and as some others have said, you cant force the donkey to play as you want, you cant bribe the donkey with more carrots, a dead donkey wont move, no matter how much you try to force it, bribe it...

We can argue back and fourth what Eve should be, and we wont agree, so lets agree that we love Eve and let each to their own game !


No. The whole "let each to their own game" thing is a cop out. We play this game together, and no matter how many eventys or other crap CAS has is irrelevant.

The benefit npc corp members get (immunity to war decs, a KEY mechanic in high sec) is huge, and a huge price should be paid for it. 11% corp tax on mission runners and explorers and no tax on anything else + some minor restrictions like not being able to have a POS is not a steep enough cost.

While the OP might be a bit over the top, the price for wardec immunity should be higher. I don't advocate making npc corps war-decable (or any situation that "pushes" people out of npc corps), it's just that the current situation is too "have your cake and eat it too" to me, and should be modified. CCP got a good start with the 11% tax, they need to do more.


Since war dec immunity is pretty much the only advantage of npc corps, why not just get it removed and end this dated argument? As long as necessary shields for new players (2 or 3 month old toons) so they aren't immediately thrown into the fire and turned off to Eve. A decent proposition imo is that individuals in npc corps could be war decced for the full price of war deccing an entire corp, even though the price won't discourage people from spamming war decs at people in npc corps.

"The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! pops more corn" ---Evernub--
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#139 - 2013-02-04 14:00:43 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
The benefit npc corp members get (immunity to war decs, a KEY mechanic in high sec) is huge


Yet traders are not only immune to war decs, but even immune to suicide ganking and make so much more money than NPC mission bear's its hilarious.

You see, the thing is, you will NEVER force someone who doesn't want to undock and die to you & your buddies to do so. Ever.

Futile attempts to screw with the existing status quo to attempt to make this possible (hint: it's not) is....pointless.
Aren Madigan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#140 - 2013-02-04 14:21:15 UTC
Drake Doe wrote:

Since war dec immunity is pretty much the only advantage of npc corps, why not just get it removed and end this dated argument? As long as necessary shields for new players (2 or 3 month old toons) so they aren't immediately thrown into the fire and turned off to Eve. A decent proposition imo is that individuals in npc corps could be war decced for the full price of war deccing an entire corp, even though the price won't discourage people from spamming war decs at people in npc corps.


As much as I disagree with single player wardecs and think it should be more where kill rights can be long term, multiple kills and able to be given away, if single player wardecs were put in, should be SP based on when they are allowed for the simple fact of some players start and then quit for a long while before trying again, so an older character isn't necessary a ready character.