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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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Players in NPC Corps should not be able to:

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Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#101 - 2013-02-04 05:05:52 UTC
Captain Tardbar wrote:
So tell me how again will moving all these NPC corp people into one man corps will solve your perceived problem?

You know, one man corps that are recycled every time a war dec happens... Or do you want a button on your keyboard that forces people to undock so you can shoot them?


That's what folks like you never get. There doesn't need to be a "problem" for something to be less than optimal.

Won't speak for the OP, but for me, it's simply a matter of introducing a bit on internal consitancy. A player driven game shouldn't have something like our current npc corps, and ccp demonstated some understanding of the issue with the npc corp tax. It doesn't go far enough though.

I would hope people would chose to accept the restrictions proposed and see it as a far exchange for the awesome advantage of no war decs/cutting risk in half, and stay in their npc corp if thats what they want to do. But the current situation with npc corps is more "have your cake and eat it too" themepark thinking than "HTFU" sandpark thinking that should rule in EVE.
Christopher Caldaris
Caldaris Enterprises LLC
#102 - 2013-02-04 06:08:10 UTC
Sol Weinstein wrote:
Christopher Caldaris wrote:
Still trying to understand how being in an NPC corp is "abuse" of game mechanics.

Some people just don't want to deal with the BS that griefers cause.

They already have high tax rates in NPC corps and they don't have the benefits that come with being in a fully funded and well oiled player corp.

Seems like OP just wants to be able to shoot easy targets that can't defend themselves and get a pat on the back for being a big boy now.


In what way exactly does my post allude to the falsity that I want to be "able to shoot easy targets that can't defend themselves" ?? Read it again... In what way EXACTLY did I state what you claim?

Furthermore, who said ANYTHING about not defending oneself? In fact, a player in an NPC corp who places a bounty on another player or corp takes away the ability of the bountied player/corp to 'defend themselves'.

High tax rates? When I file my taxes this year I'll add in a note to the IRS how anything above 11% is "too high". 11% too high... as if. If my thread wasn't titled "Players in NPC Corps should not be able to:", I would have added [my opinion] that the tax should be higher. As in 50%. Yes. I feel that the NPC corp tax should be 50%.

What benefits of a PRC are you referring to specifically? Now, if at least ONE of my suggestions was implemented, you MIGHT be able to claim that there is a benefit to being in a PRC. But I'll play along. Name ONE benefit a PRC gets over an NPC corp besides a variable tax rate. Go ahead. I'll wait.

Thank you.


PRCs have access to cumulative wealth of the members in terms of knowledge and experience, access to stockpiles of items, ships, resources, skill capability and teamwork. Social networks that can organize fleets, persue and create emergent gameplay, place a monopoly on entire star systems, ensure members get crucial training, and the ability to set tax rate to 0%.

NPC corps give you 11% tax rate, and the ability to not have to hide in the station for months on end while you are at war.

People in NPC corps are 95% people playing solo to benefit from not being able to be forced to play to the whim of other players through wardecs, 5% are new players just starting.

Your entire OP reeks of arrogance and an assumption that people have to play the game to your liking. If it's so great to be in an NPC corp why aren't you in one? Shouldn't you be reaping the supposed great benefit that so many you hate are doing?

You sound like a little kid that wants to run the sandbox and are mad that someone smarter than you found a way to enjoy their gameplay time that much more and you want it gone.

The point of the game is to have fun, not to "play the way Sol Weinstein wants everyone to play".
Arronicus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#103 - 2013-02-04 06:12:12 UTC
Reserved.

Also. I like the part about players in an npc corporation not being able to leave basic starting areas, to interact with other players, and find new corps to join through running into people, or being able to explore the game a little before they purchase it.

I think anything that further restricts new players from enjoying the game, and steers them away from it, is excellent business sense, and CCP should hire the OP immediately. His ideas are sound and without flaw. With his vision, we will eradicate much of the playerbase, and have a pure, pvp oriented eve, free of hauler/npc industrialist/mission runner/highsec miner scum!
Luc Chastot
#104 - 2013-02-04 06:14:35 UTC
Sol Weinstein wrote:
Play.


There, didn't need that much text to say that.

Make it idiot-proof and someone will make a better idiot.

Sean Parisi
Blackrise Vanguard
#105 - 2013-02-04 07:42:47 UTC
How about no?
Dave Stark
#106 - 2013-02-04 08:09:17 UTC
Sol Weinstein wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Sol Weinstein wrote:
Whitehound wrote:
Sol Weinstein wrote:
I disagree that my suggestions add nothing to the game.

True. They add a lot of limitations to it. Heartless, selfish, mean and unnecessary limitations, which is far worse than nothing.


That is a wonderful opinion. And I feel that some of the things NPC corp players are allowed to do also add hearless, selfish, mean, and unnecessary limitation to the playstyle of others. This is why the thread was created.

Your negative opinion is noted. Thank you for your time and input.





especially since npc corp players already have less tools at their disposal.


Please feel free to list the missing tools at their disposal.

(Also, they SHOULD have less tools at their disposal. At least in my opinion. Opinion... the point of this thread.)

Thank you.


war decs.
if they already have less tools, why are you making a redundant thread?
Destination SkillQueue
Doomheim
#107 - 2013-02-04 08:39:04 UTC
Sura Sadiva wrote:
I think NPC corps are actually used for 2 purpose:

1. For new or realuvely new players still looking around and getting the basic of the game.

2. Old players using them (with their main or their alts) to get advantage and, on some extend, exploiting the advantages and protections given by NPC corps.


I think the #2 should be severely nerfed.

So I agree with the OP general idea, but most of the changes he proposed are not a realistic option; like limiting ppl in NPC copr to 1.0, 0.9, negating mining and so on. This would results simply in cutting the legs for true new players that need to graps the general meanings of the game and evaluate the options they have. Other ideas may be more intersting (like limiting station services to the NPC copr you belong or denying the bounties options).

In general most of the "protections" and advantage offered by NPC corps are a benefit only for experienced players that know how to take advantage of the system.

So instead of totally denying some aspects of the game (that would be disruptive for new players) I think should be more a progressive pushing to leave the NPC corp making stay there not convenient.


What you describe is propably intentional, but it might not seem that way to you, since you're missing one important reason the NPC corps exist in the first place. That is to provide a final safe haven for all players to recuperate and lick their wounds. It's there to make sure you can't be griefed out of the game by in-game means. That reason for existing is specifically targeted for old and new players. No matter what enemies you make and how many people you **** off there needs to be an area where you can go get back on your feet and gather resources to try again. It's where people go when they're tired of the normal stressful drama and just want to get away from it all for a while. It ensures, that you always have other options besides quitting the game when you're driven to a corner or just need a break.
Sol Weinstein
Lunatic Warfare Federation
#108 - 2013-02-04 08:47:40 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:


No, the ONLY possibvle motivation you could have is you want people to play just like you do



Wrong. It is not the ONLY possible motivation. And I'll prove that by....

Jenn aSide wrote:

I haven't read the thread


Thank you for giving an opinion on a topic you admit to not educating yourself on. You will be taken seriously when you read the thread, and all the follow-up posts.

Thank you.
Sol Weinstein
Lunatic Warfare Federation
#109 - 2013-02-04 08:53:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Sol Weinstein
Christopher Caldaris wrote:


PRCs have access to cumulative wealth of the members in terms of knowledge and experience, access to stockpiles of items, ships, resources, skill capability and teamwork. Social networks that can organize fleets, persue and create emergent gameplay, place a monopoly on entire star systems, ensure members get crucial training, and the ability to set tax rate to 0%.



PRCs aren't given these benefits upon creation. They earn them. This makes your argument a tad on the invalid side of things. While I respect your viewpoint, you do have to admit it is a bit skewed at this point.

Christopher Caldaris wrote:

People in NPC corps are 95% people playing solo to benefit from not being able to be forced to play to the whim of other players through wardecs, 5% are new players just starting.


This is where I admit that my ideas aren't 100% awesome. They are simply ideas. Thankfully, they can be modified or adapted. Or possibly even removed. The entire point of the thread.


Christopher Caldaris wrote:

Your entire OP reeks of arrogance and an assumption that people have to play the game to your liking. If it's so great to be in an NPC corp why aren't you in one? Shouldn't you be reaping the supposed great benefit that so many you hate are doing?


Don't just throw around the word arrogance without fully understanding it. Also, the GMs must, too, be arrogant... no?

Christopher Caldaris wrote:

You sound like a little kid that wants to run the sandbox and are mad that someone smarter than you found a way to enjoy their gameplay time that much more and you want it gone.


I will ask you to refrain from further personal attacks on me and to not let your emotions show through. It has successfully eroded anything remotely intelligent you might have said.


Christopher Caldaris wrote:

The point of the game is to have fun, not to "play the way Sol Weinstein wants everyone to play".



Obvious statement is obvious.

Thank you.
Sol Weinstein
Lunatic Warfare Federation
#110 - 2013-02-04 08:55:59 UTC
Arronicus wrote:
Reserved.

Also. I like the part about players in an npc corporation not being able to leave basic starting areas, to interact with other players, and find new corps to join through running into people, or being able to explore the game a little before they purchase it.

I think anything that further restricts new players from enjoying the game, and steers them away from it, is excellent business sense, and CCP should hire the OP immediately. His ideas are sound and without flaw. With his vision, we will eradicate much of the playerbase, and have a pure, pvp oriented eve, free of hauler/npc industrialist/mission runner/highsec miner scum!



Ah. Sarcasm. I see what you did there.

Once again, this is an idea thread. You seem to have a grasp on what this means so there is no need to explain it to you.

I am going to change some of the idea in the OP because you seem to not be able to understand them.

Thank you.
Sol Weinstein
Lunatic Warfare Federation
#111 - 2013-02-04 09:04:05 UTC
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
While I completely agree that something should be done to make long term membership of an NPC corp less attractive I think the OP is a little extreme.

No character, regardless of what corp they are a member of should be restricted in the kind of system they can go into, or not have the ability to use their spaceship to affect the spaceships of other players, the ability to go wherever you want and do whatever you want to anyone so long as you're willing to accept the consequences are the fundamental aspects of the game and no person who is paying a subscription for this game should be restricted from them.

By all means make being in an NPC corp suck balls by putting a big old tax on all market transactions or even do something lore-fitting like have all non-rookie NPC corps be at war with the non-rookie NPC corps of their factional enemies (I mean people keep saying that the empires are meant to be at war with eachother, but it's pretty hard to tell). But the basic functionality of the game should remain intact.


I agree. They were extreme. And I thank you for keeping your post outside of the negative boundaries.

A lot of people don't realize that sometimes you have to start with an extreme idea and trim it down to a more realistic area. As you might have notices, I went and amended the original post. I did not remove anything, but simply highlighted some things and added comments.

Thank you.
Sol Weinstein
Lunatic Warfare Federation
#112 - 2013-02-04 09:08:12 UTC
Destination SkillQueue wrote:
Sura Sadiva wrote:
I think NPC corps are actually used for 2 purpose:

1. For new or realuvely new players still looking around and getting the basic of the game.

2. Old players using them (with their main or their alts) to get advantage and, on some extend, exploiting the advantages and protections given by NPC corps.


I think the #2 should be severely nerfed.

So I agree with the OP general idea, but most of the changes he proposed are not a realistic option; like limiting ppl in NPC copr to 1.0, 0.9, negating mining and so on. This would results simply in cutting the legs for true new players that need to graps the general meanings of the game and evaluate the options they have. Other ideas may be more intersting (like limiting station services to the NPC copr you belong or denying the bounties options).

In general most of the "protections" and advantage offered by NPC corps are a benefit only for experienced players that know how to take advantage of the system.

So instead of totally denying some aspects of the game (that would be disruptive for new players) I think should be more a progressive pushing to leave the NPC corp making stay there not convenient.


What you describe is propably intentional, but it might not seem that way to you, since you're missing one important reason the NPC corps exist in the first place. That is to provide a final safe haven for all players to recuperate and lick their wounds. It's there to make sure you can't be griefed out of the game by in-game means. That reason for existing is specifically targeted for old and new players. No matter what enemies you make and how many people you **** off there needs to be an area where you can go get back on your feet and gather resources to try again. It's where people go when they're tired of the normal stressful drama and just want to get away from it all for a while. It ensures, that you always have other options besides quitting the game when you're driven to a corner or just need a break.


Absolutely correct. This is one of the reasons why an NPC corp exists. The other reason is for new players. However, it also allows players to misuse and abuse (exploit) the game mechanics in a way that doesn't coincide with the major theme of the game: Choice(s).

If you choose to "anger many people" and "make enemies", then you SHOULD by all rights suffer the consequences. And, by all means, this doesn't need to happen in game. If EVE is getting a little thick for a certain player, then perhaps a break might do the same thing. I mean, if you upset someone enough to wardec your PRC, and then don't log in, doesn't that solve both problems?

This thread was not intended to get people to quit the game. And on the other hand, sometimes the abuse of the NPC corp IS the stress causing element in the mix.

Thank you.
Sol Weinstein
Lunatic Warfare Federation
#113 - 2013-02-04 09:14:54 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:


war decs.
if they already have less tools, why are you making a redundant thread?


Is this the only "tool" you could think of? Wardecs? I think it goes without saying that NPC corps wish to avoid wardecs. You mentioned less tools... ToolS... Plural. So, I will accept 'wardecs' as the first tool in your list. Care to add more?

Name a second thing that NPC corps cannot do that a PRC can out-of-the-box. Keep in mind that even a PRC cannot just use ALL the tools upon day one of creation. They have to work at some of the things, too.

Thank you.
Naomi Anthar
#114 - 2013-02-04 09:20:27 UTC
Wait i swear i could see dislike button for moment. Now it's gone !
Dave Stark
#115 - 2013-02-04 09:24:41 UTC
Sol Weinstein wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:


war decs.
if they already have less tools, why are you making a redundant thread?


Is this the only "tool" you could think of? Wardecs? I think it goes without saying that NPC corps wish to avoid wardecs. You mentioned less tools... ToolS... Plural. So, I will accept 'wardecs' as the first tool in your list. Care to add more?

Name a second thing that NPC corps cannot do that a PRC can out-of-the-box. Keep in mind that even a PRC cannot just use ALL the tools upon day one of creation. They have to work at some of the things, too.

Thank you.


i said tools because wardecs belong to a set of tools, plural.
also your suggestions don't add anything to the game, i have no idea why this thread is even being taken seriously.

all you're suggesting is making the game unplayable to a subset of players. it doesn't address any issues and is a complete waste of CCP's time
Sol Weinstein
Lunatic Warfare Federation
#116 - 2013-02-04 09:29:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Sol Weinstein
Dave Stark wrote:
Sol Weinstein wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:


war decs.
if they already have less tools, why are you making a redundant thread?


Is this the only "tool" you could think of? Wardecs? I think it goes without saying that NPC corps wish to avoid wardecs. You mentioned less tools... ToolS... Plural. So, I will accept 'wardecs' as the first tool in your list. Care to add more?

Name a second thing that NPC corps cannot do that a PRC can out-of-the-box. Keep in mind that even a PRC cannot just use ALL the tools upon day one of creation. They have to work at some of the things, too.

Thank you.


i said tools because wardecs belong to a set of tools, plural.
also your suggestions don't add anything to the game, i have no idea why this thread is even being taken seriously.

all you're suggesting is making the game unplayable to a subset of players. it doesn't address any issues and is a complete waste of CCP's time


And I offered you the chance to list them. This is your point in time to step up to the plate and discuss the topic in a meaningful way. Since you have obviously not taken that opportunity, it is your loss.

My suggestions aren't intended to add anything to the game. They are intended to open discussion about the game mechanics. But to clarify your point, yes. My suggestions are designed to remove a safety feature that is being abused by a percentage of the playerbase and still retain the benefits of the system for the intended audience: new players.

In what way do the changes I propose make the game unplayable? But I know that you won't offer a direct answer to my questions or ideas because you have failed at every single opportunity so far.

I went and modified some of the original post. I suggest you go and read them OR bow out of the discussion. You can only choose one.

Maybe you should just remove this thread from your watch list and move on to another topic.

Thank you.
Dave Stark
#117 - 2013-02-04 09:37:57 UTC
Sol Weinstein wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Sol Weinstein wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:


war decs.
if they already have less tools, why are you making a redundant thread?


Is this the only "tool" you could think of? Wardecs? I think it goes without saying that NPC corps wish to avoid wardecs. You mentioned less tools... ToolS... Plural. So, I will accept 'wardecs' as the first tool in your list. Care to add more?

Name a second thing that NPC corps cannot do that a PRC can out-of-the-box. Keep in mind that even a PRC cannot just use ALL the tools upon day one of creation. They have to work at some of the things, too.

Thank you.


i said tools because wardecs belong to a set of tools, plural.
also your suggestions don't add anything to the game, i have no idea why this thread is even being taken seriously.

all you're suggesting is making the game unplayable to a subset of players. it doesn't address any issues and is a complete waste of CCP's time


And I offered you the chance to list them. This is your point in time to step up to the plate and discuss the topic in a meaningful way. Since you have obviously not taken that opportunity, it is your loss.

My suggestions aren't intended to add anything to the game. They are intended to open discussion about the game mechanics. But to clarify your point, yes. My suggestions are designed to remove a safety feature that is being abused by a percentage of the playerbase and still retain the benefits of the system for the intended audience: new players.

In what way do the changes I propose make the game unplayable? But I know that you won't offer a direct answer to my questions or ideas because you have failed at every single opportunity so far.

I went and modified some of the original post. I suggest you go and read them OR bow out of the discussion. You can only choose one.

Maybe you should just remove this thread from your watch list and move on to another topic.

Thank you.


there's nothing here to discuss, just a laundry list of ways to make npc corp players unable to actually play the game. do i never need to explain why that's a dreadful idea? because i'm not going to, it should be self evident.

discussion about what? a system that works perfectly fine and doesn't need changing? again, this topic is a waste of time.

how will it make the game unplayable? well people can't buy and sell, people can't mine, people can't move around. all there is to do is ship spin. that's why your ideas are awful, because it leaves the players in npc corps no way to actually play the game they're paying to play. these restrictions would be absurd on trial accounts, let alone full accounts.

i fail to see the problem npc corps are creating (tip: they aren't creating any problems).

if you tell me what "problem" you're trying to fix, i might take this thread a *little* more seriously.
Sol Weinstein
Lunatic Warfare Federation
#118 - 2013-02-04 09:40:42 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:

there's nothing here to discuss, just a laundry list of ways to make npc corp players unable to actually play the game. do i never need to explain why that's a dreadful idea? because i'm not going to, it should be self evident.

discussion about what? a system that works perfectly fine and doesn't need changing? again, this topic is a waste of time.

how will it make the game unplayable? well people can't buy and sell, people can't mine, people can't move around. all there is to do is ship spin. that's why your ideas are awful, because it leaves the players in npc corps no way to actually play the game they're paying to play. these restrictions would be absurd on trial accounts, let alone full accounts.

i fail to see the problem npc corps are creating (tip: they aren't creating any problems).

if you tell me what "problem" you're trying to fix, i might take this thread a *little* more seriously.


You didn't go and read the post or the changes I made to it. Where is your victory rant on how I backed down from my original post?

I will offer you one more chance to state how my modified changes make the game unplayable. Please. Prove me wrong with your ideas and not just rant at me. I'm begging you to have an intelligent discussion about this.

You are obviously one of the players who uses the protection of an NPC corp to abuse the system.

I am hoping CCP will add personal declarations of war in a future expansion. You're my first target.

Thank you.
Dave Stark
#119 - 2013-02-04 09:46:17 UTC
Sol Weinstein wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:

there's nothing here to discuss, just a laundry list of ways to make npc corp players unable to actually play the game. do i never need to explain why that's a dreadful idea? because i'm not going to, it should be self evident.

discussion about what? a system that works perfectly fine and doesn't need changing? again, this topic is a waste of time.

how will it make the game unplayable? well people can't buy and sell, people can't mine, people can't move around. all there is to do is ship spin. that's why your ideas are awful, because it leaves the players in npc corps no way to actually play the game they're paying to play. these restrictions would be absurd on trial accounts, let alone full accounts.

i fail to see the problem npc corps are creating (tip: they aren't creating any problems).

if you tell me what "problem" you're trying to fix, i might take this thread a *little* more seriously.


You didn't go and read the post or the changes I made to it. Where is your victory rant on how I backed down from my original post?

I will offer you one more chance to state how my modified changes make the game unplayable. Please. Prove me wrong with your ideas and not just rant at me. I'm begging you to have an intelligent discussion about this.

You are obviously one of the players who uses the protection of an NPC corp to abuse the system.

I am hoping CCP will add personal declarations of war in a future expansion. You're my first target.

Thank you.


no, i've already explained i use the npc corp because player corps have nothing to offer. all these changes would do is force me to cancel 3 accounts as i couldn't continue my daily business within eve.

again, what problem are you trying to fix? or are you just arbitrarily suggesting ******* up npc corps because you're bored?

oh noes, the bad man is going to war dec me because i didn't agree with his terrible ideas, what ever will i do? if you don't like people calling your bad ideas bad, don't post bad ideas. just a tip there.

now, once more. what is the "problem" you're trying to fix with this? then perhaps i can then understand why you've listed a bunch of terrible ideas.
Sol Weinstein
Lunatic Warfare Federation
#120 - 2013-02-04 09:50:23 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:

Stuff.


Thank you for finally admitting you have nothing to offer to the discussion and bowing out.