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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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Players in NPC Corps should not be able to:

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Sol Weinstein
Lunatic Warfare Federation
#81 - 2013-02-04 02:36:52 UTC
Aren Madigan wrote:
Sol Weinstein wrote:
Aren Madigan wrote:

Restricting skills is obscenely different from restricting them from doing pretty much.. well... anything really but the bare bones of the game.


I can see your point. Skill based restriction is literally based on time invested into the game. My suggested restrictions are based on choices. Something this game advertises as a huge part of the game. So, I think that [some of] my ideas are a decent stepping stone to a bigger discussion.


Aren Madigan wrote:

And yes, I don't agree with ANY of those ideas.


Not ANY? Not even the first two? You feel that players should be able to place bounties on another player while in a NPC corp? You feel that a NPC player should be able to place a bounty on an entire PRC ?

Aren Madigan wrote:

High sec is meant to be a place of relative safety. That's how it was designed.


This really wasn't about High Sec.

Furthermore, on release, no system was safe. Hardly "the way it was designed". Please don't take this the wrong way, but read up on the history of the game. CONCORD wasn't always around to protect us.

Thank you.


Its the way its designed now though, and for a reason. I can imagine the kind of ganking that went on that really made growth near impossible for the game... seen the result of that kind of thing from EverQuest's PVP servers back in the early days of MMOs. Doesn't make for a healthy game, at all. And yes, I do believe that NPC corp players should be free to place bounties.. New Highsec Order being a prime example of why.


New Highsec Order uses NPC corp players to place their bounties. Fact.

I also feel that players should be able to 'wardec' an individual player.

Thank you.
Aren Madigan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#82 - 2013-02-04 02:38:18 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
The New Order is an excellent example of how wardec evasion and NPC corps 'protect newbies' by enabling a 7-year old character to harass them in belts all day.


That's also something I agree needs to be changed... perhaps by expanding kill rights? Allowing people to hand them off to a chosen bounty hunter, that kind of thing. Maybe setup to be less an eye for an eye. That might be something warranting its own discussion though to go over flaws and advantages of such changes.
Whitehound
#83 - 2013-02-04 02:40:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Whitehound
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
The New Order is an excellent example of how wardec evasion and NPC corps 'protect newbies' by enabling a 7-year old character to harass them in belts all day.

They have their own corps and alliance. Check for CODE. please.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#84 - 2013-02-04 02:42:02 UTC
Sol Weinstein wrote:
There are many aspects of this game that are ruined, just ruined, by actions of players in NPC corporations. The bounty thing is one of the major ones. Hopefully, someone out there will agree that the leash needs to be tightened on most of the people that use the NPC Corporation Exploit when performing harmful actions towards another player or corporation.


What problem are you trying to solve? You claim that the bounty system is "ruined" by NPC corp players. How? What is the problem you are trying to solve?

What is "the NPC Corporation Exploit"? I hae never heard of it, and you are presenting this term as if it should be common knowledge. What is the problem you are trying to solve. Pretend that I am a gormless twit, so you will need to provide illustrative examples of why it is bad for a rookie in an NPC corp to be able to place a bounty on the capsuleer who blew up his wreathe containing all his worldly possessions.

Why is it bad for NPC corp members to mine or harvest ice?

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#85 - 2013-02-04 02:47:05 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
The New Order is an excellent example of how wardec evasion and NPC corps 'protect newbies' by enabling a 7-year old character to harass them in belts all day.

They have their own corps and alliance. Check for CODE. please.

CODE wasn't always around, check James' turning wardec evasion in on itself here please.
Sol Weinstein
Lunatic Warfare Federation
#86 - 2013-02-04 02:52:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Sol Weinstein
Mara Rinn wrote:
Sol Weinstein wrote:
There are many aspects of this game that are ruined, just ruined, by actions of players in NPC corporations. The bounty thing is one of the major ones. Hopefully, someone out there will agree that the leash needs to be tightened on most of the people that use the NPC Corporation Exploit when performing harmful actions towards another player or corporation.


What problem are you trying to solve? You claim that the bounty system is "ruined" by NPC corp players. How? What is the problem you are trying to solve?

What is "the NPC Corporation Exploit"? I hae never heard of it, and you are presenting this term as if it should be common knowledge. What is the problem you are trying to solve. Pretend that I am a gormless twit, so you will need to provide illustrative examples of why it is bad for a rookie in an NPC corp to be able to place a bounty on the capsuleer who blew up his wreathe containing all his worldly possessions.

Why is it bad for NPC corp members to mine or harvest ice?


Trying to solve the NPC Exploit problem and the issues it creates. Yes, I suppose it is my term. I'm sorry if it doesn't fit into your world. It's the term I use.

Your initial tone is a bit aggressive so I am just going to ignore the rest of of it and just move along. I will take your advice and assume you are a "gormless twit" and realize that I probably can't make you see the nature of the post.

Thank you.
Whitehound
#87 - 2013-02-04 02:53:45 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Whitehound wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
The New Order is an excellent example of how wardec evasion and NPC corps 'protect newbies' by enabling a 7-year old character to harass them in belts all day.

They have their own corps and alliance. Check for CODE. please.

CODE wasn't always around, check James' turning wardec evasion in on itself here please.

Well, thank you, but I do already know about it, and James himself does not do anything and it is his good right to stay in an NPC corporation or to create as well as disband a corporation. He is not your problem nor are NPC corporations one.

One can always create a corp, stick an alt in and place bounties over it.

To be honest with you, Sol Weinstein could be James 315, for all I know.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Christopher Caldaris
Caldaris Enterprises LLC
#88 - 2013-02-04 02:55:25 UTC
Still trying to understand how being in an NPC corp is "abuse" of game mechanics.

Some people just don't want to deal with the BS that griefers cause.

They already have high tax rates in NPC corps and they don't have the benefits that come with being in a fully funded and well oiled player corp.

Seems like OP just wants to be able to shoot easy targets that can't defend themselves and get a pat on the back for being a big boy now.
MadMuppet
Critical Mass Inc
#89 - 2013-02-04 02:56:53 UTC
Didn't read the whole thread.... but lets say I leave a corp and I'm in null.. do I teleport to a 0.9 system when I automatically join an NPC corp because that is the way the game is coded? What if I get booted from a corp? Do my orders get cancelled? Do my research/manufacturing jobs get cancelled? Do my jump clones go poof? Do you have any concept of what you are doing to the game mechanics or how they operate? Have you heard the term, 'making a mountain out of a molehill? Will the caped crusader escape from the Jokers evil trap? Will Bullwinkle figure out the Natasha is more than just an S&M fetish freak in to members of the deer and elk family? Will Dug stop joensing over squirrels and let Rocky go? Tune in next time for 'Angry at AFKers' or "I want others to play my way or I'll whine them to death".

This message brought to you by Experience(tm). When common sense fails you, experience will come to the rescue. Experience(tm) from the makers of CONCORD.

"If you are part of the problem, you will be nerfed." -MadMuppet
Vangelios
#90 - 2013-02-04 02:59:12 UTC
Main problem are alts not npc corps. CCP loves alts. Npc corps are irrelevant.

... Each small candle Lights a corner of the dark...
Sol Weinstein
Lunatic Warfare Federation
#91 - 2013-02-04 03:00:01 UTC
MadMuppet wrote:
Didn't read the whole thread....


I offered you the same respect.

Thank you.
Lledrith
Ex Caminus
#92 - 2013-02-04 03:05:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Lledrith
Sol Weinstein wrote:
3. Exist outside of systems less then 0.9 (Maybe 0.8)


3.a.a if player drops corporation and is still currently enroll in Faction Warfare he is only able to fly in Faction Warfare systems.
Sol Weinstein
Lunatic Warfare Federation
#93 - 2013-02-04 03:07:27 UTC
Christopher Caldaris wrote:
Still trying to understand how being in an NPC corp is "abuse" of game mechanics.

Some people just don't want to deal with the BS that griefers cause.

They already have high tax rates in NPC corps and they don't have the benefits that come with being in a fully funded and well oiled player corp.

Seems like OP just wants to be able to shoot easy targets that can't defend themselves and get a pat on the back for being a big boy now.


In what way exactly does my post allude to the falsity that I want to be "able to shoot easy targets that can't defend themselves" ?? Read it again... In what way EXACTLY did I state what you claim?

Furthermore, who said ANYTHING about not defending oneself? In fact, a player in an NPC corp who places a bounty on another player or corp takes away the ability of the bountied player/corp to 'defend themselves'.

High tax rates? When I file my taxes this year I'll add in a note to the IRS how anything above 11% is "too high". 11% too high... as if. If my thread wasn't titled "Players in NPC Corps should not be able to:", I would have added [my opinion] that the tax should be higher. As in 50%. Yes. I feel that the NPC corp tax should be 50%.

What benefits of a PRC are you referring to specifically? Now, if at least ONE of my suggestions was implemented, you MIGHT be able to claim that there is a benefit to being in a PRC. But I'll play along. Name ONE benefit a PRC gets over an NPC corp besides a variable tax rate. Go ahead. I'll wait.

Thank you.
Sol Weinstein
Lunatic Warfare Federation
#94 - 2013-02-04 03:08:39 UTC
Vangelios wrote:
Main problem are alts not npc corps. CCP loves alts. Npc corps are irrelevant.


I agree completely.

But, the mechanic that these alts use is the NPC corporations. Hence, why I call it the NPC Exploit. They are using a game mechanic to an advantage that other players do not have.

Thank you.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#95 - 2013-02-04 03:15:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Whitehound wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Whitehound wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
The New Order is an excellent example of how wardec evasion and NPC corps 'protect newbies' by enabling a 7-year old character to harass them in belts all day.

They have their own corps and alliance. Check for CODE. please.

CODE wasn't always around, check James' turning wardec evasion in on itself here please.

Well, thank you, but I do already know about it, and James himself does not do anything and it is his good right to stay in an NPC corporation or to create as well as disband a corporation. He is not your problem nor are NPC corporations one.
Mmm, your tune changed fast. As long as we're clear about who NPC corp protections really benefit.
Whitehound
#96 - 2013-02-04 03:38:51 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Whitehound wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Whitehound wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
The New Order is an excellent example of how wardec evasion and NPC corps 'protect newbies' by enabling a 7-year old character to harass them in belts all day.

They have their own corps and alliance. Check for CODE. please.

CODE wasn't always around, check James' turning wardec evasion in on itself here please.

Well, thank you, but I do already know about it, and James himself does not do anything and it is his good right to stay in an NPC corporation or to create as well as disband a corporation. He is not your problem nor are NPC corporations one.
Mmm, your tune changed fast. As long as we're clear about who NPC corp protections really benefit.

I am not sure what you mean by tune. If you are saying that I am not stupidly ignoring arguments and not only care for my own arguments then you are right. Did this surprise you?

To me is Sol Weinstein just as radical in his ideas and beliefs as James 315 is, and both seem serious about it as well as desperate and having a problem with their environment. The difference I see is that Sol Weinstein fights game mechanics and wants to change the game, whereas James 315 is fighting players and wants to change those. Lol

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#97 - 2013-02-04 03:54:42 UTC
I think NPC corps are actually used for 2 purpose:

1. For new or realuvely new players still looking around and getting the basic of the game.

2. Old players using them (with their main or their alts) to get advantage and, on some extend, exploiting the advantages and protections given by NPC corps.


I think the #2 should be severely nerfed.

So I agree with the OP general idea, but most of the changes he proposed are not a realistic option; like limiting ppl in NPC copr to 1.0, 0.9, negating mining and so on. This would results simply in cutting the legs for true new players that need to graps the general meanings of the game and evaluate the options they have. Other ideas may be more intersting (like limiting station services to the NPC copr you belong or denying the bounties options).

In general most of the "protections" and advantage offered by NPC corps are a benefit only for experienced players that know how to take advantage of the system.

So instead of totally denying some aspects of the game (that would be disruptive for new players) I think should be more a progressive pushing to leave the NPC corp making stay there not convenient.
Jimmy Gunsmythe
Sebiestor Tribe
#98 - 2013-02-04 04:38:35 UTC
Sol Weinstein wrote:
1. Place bounties on players
2. Place bounties on corps
3. Exist outside of systems less then 0.9 (Maybe 0.8)
4. Rent manufacturing or research slots in any station that is not owned by their NPC corp
(This goes both ways. Those slots should be reserved for the members of that NPC corp.)
5. Have jump-clones in any station not owned by their NPC corp.
6. Going with #3; be able to mine ice or ore outside of their allowed systems (1.0 or 0.9; alternatively 0.8 if allowed in those)
7. Activate modules on players that are not in other NPC corps.
8. Place market orders and contracts. Market ORDERS. They can still buy and sell using the 'immediate' function.


3.a. Perhaps it should be that they are allowed to enter systems lower than 0.9 (0.8), but they should be restricted to what they can do in these systems. I don't want to suggest that 'anyone should be able to fire upon them as if in a war', but that might be an option.

========

There are many aspects of this game that are ruined, just ruined, by actions of players in NPC corporations. The bounty thing is one of the major ones. Hopefully, someone out there will agree that the leash needs to be tightened on most of the people that use the NPC Corporation Exploit when performing harmful actions towards another player or corporation.

I do not wish to force people to 'play my way' or anything like that. I feel that NPC corporations offer a place for newer players to cut their teeth in this game. But, it also allows older players (alts) to abuse the system and hide behind an anonymous flag, so to speak. Also, people who use an NPC corporation alt for 'legitimate reasons' (market alt is one of them) should not be affected by this in a negative fashion. Most market alts don't even undock. So fear of being wardec'd shouldn't be an issue. And, if you are one of those market alts that does undock, well... Welcome to the way the rest of us play! Now you have to worry about your actions and declarations just like the rest of us.

This thread was opened to discuss this thought process. And to meet other like-minded pod pilots. For those who think this needs to be moved to a different forum (Feature & Ideas), keep your opinion to yourself and let the Devs sort it out. But, as much as it might need to have a discussion in the F&I forum, I feel that it also needs to be brought up in GD. Even though I know that a bunch of people will troll this.

Discuss.


Agreed. We should also limit contact and interatcion of any type to only members of their NPC corporation.

John Hancock
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#99 - 2013-02-04 05:00:56 UTC
Sol Weinstein wrote:

I do not wish to force people to 'play my way' or anything like that. I feel that NPC corporations offer a place for newer players to cut their teeth in this game. But, it also allows older players (alts) to abuse the system and hide behind an anonymous flag, so to speak. Also, people who use an NPC corporation alt for 'legitimate reasons' (market alt is one of them) should not be affected by this in a negative fashion. Most market alts don't even undock. So fear of being wardec'd shouldn't be an issue. And, if you are one of those market alts that does undock, well... Welcome to the way the rest of us play! Now you have to worry about your actions and declarations just like the rest of us.
.



Doesn't matter what your motivation is or the fact that you have openly disclosed it.

No, the ONLY possibvle motivation you could have is you want people to play just like you do, and are some kind of evil goon puppet because the legions of npc players "aren't doing anything to you" and if you change it millions of people will unsub.

I haven't read the thread, but i'll bet I just summed up opposition in 1 sentence.

More serioulsy, I fully support these ideas. NPC corps should be for new players, role players willing to accept restrictions on gameplay for the sake of roleplay, and casual players willing to trade some game content for safety. NPC corps should not be a place for veteran players to hide.
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#100 - 2013-02-04 05:04:10 UTC
While I completely agree that something should be done to make long term membership of an NPC corp less attractive I think the OP is a little extreme.

No character, regardless of what corp they are a member of should be restricted in the kind of system they can go into, or not have the ability to use their spaceship to affect the spaceships of other players, the ability to go wherever you want and do whatever you want to anyone so long as you're willing to accept the consequences are the fundamental aspects of the game and no person who is paying a subscription for this game should be restricted from them.

By all means make being in an NPC corp suck balls by putting a big old tax on all market transactions or even do something lore-fitting like have all non-rookie NPC corps be at war with the non-rookie NPC corps of their factional enemies (I mean people keep saying that the empires are meant to be at war with eachother, but it's pretty hard to tell). But the basic functionality of the game should remain intact.