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Add a new penlaty to shield modules
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Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#21 - 2013-02-03 22:58:49 UTC
Iagus Damaclese wrote:
[
In the case of T1 vessels, Armor tank reigns king, why? well it probably has something to do with the fact that all vessels, ALL VESSELS, get better armor resists than they do shield resists to begin with. Dont believe me? go look for yourself. About the only vessels where Shield tanking is truely worth using in either PVP or PVE is in the case of the Tengu, and of course caldari ships as well, and even still i would not use a Tengu in PVP. Yeah sure you got all those nice shields and that nice shield booster but I just disrupted your tracking computer, started draining your cap, webbed you, warp disrupted you and I am moving at 300kms or more with a light armor tank and you wanna know why? because as it stand right now, any ship running a shield tank of any type is more than likely just barely cap stable in one way or another which even a small energy destabilizer can throw off and make worse than it is.

As I said before if anything shield tanking needs a bit of a buff, especially to the AI field II's resist boosts.

Let us also not forget that shields have a more powerful omni resist buffing module so the fact they have lower base resists is not that relevant.
Wut? SHield tanking is terrible for pvp? Look out for all those 200 man drake fleets and maelstroms, the fact that the most popular fits on gallente ships battlecruiser and below are shield, the fact that shield passively regenerate health and control the battlefield, also your small neut is not going to do jack **** to stop my MASSIVE asb buffer. Try using your small neut as a trump card against my shield thorax. Try the fact that the drake and shield hurricane are the two most popular battlecruisers out their, the merlin will rock the **** out of any punisher.

In all the time ive been playing I don't think ive met anyone who says armor is straight up better for pvp (except on capital ships).


https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec.
Iagus Damaclese
Doomheim
#22 - 2013-02-03 23:11:43 UTC
Commander Ted wrote:
Iagus Damaclese wrote:
[
In the case of T1 vessels, Armor tank reigns king, why? well it probably has something to do with the fact that all vessels, ALL VESSELS, get better armor resists than they do shield resists to begin with. Dont believe me? go look for yourself. About the only vessels where Shield tanking is truely worth using in either PVP or PVE is in the case of the Tengu, and of course caldari ships as well, and even still i would not use a Tengu in PVP. Yeah sure you got all those nice shields and that nice shield booster but I just disrupted your tracking computer, started draining your cap, webbed you, warp disrupted you and I am moving at 300kms or more with a light armor tank and you wanna know why? because as it stand right now, any ship running a shield tank of any type is more than likely just barely cap stable in one way or another which even a small energy destabilizer can throw off and make worse than it is.

As I said before if anything shield tanking needs a bit of a buff, especially to the AI field II's resist boosts.

Let us also not forget that shields have a more powerful omni resist buffing module so the fact they have lower base resists is not that relevant.
Wut? SHield tanking is terrible for pvp? Look out for all those 200 man drake fleets and maelstroms, the fact that the most popular fits on gallente ships battlecruiser and below are shield, the fact that shield passively regenerate health and control the battlefield, also your small neut is not going to do jack **** to stop my MASSIVE asb buffer. Try using your small neut as a trump card against my shield thorax. Try the fact that the drake and shield hurricane are the two most popular battlecruisers out their, the merlin will rock the **** out of any punisher.

In all the time ive been playing I don't think ive met anyone who says armor is straight up better for pvp (except on capital ships).




One may speak softly, or scream as loud as the wind can howl, but a wall is still a wall and will not agree with you on any matter.
Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#23 - 2013-02-03 23:15:18 UTC
Iagus Damaclese wrote:


One may speak softly, or scream as loud as the wind can howl, but a wall is still a wall and will not agree with you on any matter.


So your not even going to attempt to put up counterpoints?

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec.
Iagus Damaclese
Doomheim
#24 - 2013-02-03 23:18:43 UTC
Commander Ted wrote:
Iagus Damaclese wrote:


One may speak softly, or scream as loud as the wind can howl, but a wall is still a wall and will not agree with you on any matter.


So your not even going to attempt to put up counterpoints?


You can show a man the world over, but if he is blind he will not see.
Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#25 - 2013-02-03 23:22:38 UTC
Iagus Damaclese wrote:


You can show a man the world over, but if he is blind he will not see.


You put up points I put up points to counter those, so instead of pursueing an argument you will just put out that I am to ignorant to ever understand your correct point of view, Please stop posting if that is all you have to contribute.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec.
Iagus Damaclese
Doomheim
#26 - 2013-02-03 23:26:54 UTC
Commander Ted wrote:
Iagus Damaclese wrote:


You can show a man the world over, but if he is blind he will not see.


You put up points I put up points to counter those, so instead of pursueing an argument you will just put out that I am to ignorant to ever understand your correct point of view, Please stop posting if that is all you have to contribute.


Well at least you have admitted to your ignorance. You do make good points about the shield tanking ships however it is very specific vessels that are capable of these shield tanking fits, armor tanking efficiency is pretty universal though until of course you get to T2 vessels in which case shield tanking begins to be more efficient thank armor tanking, however I have seen people drop shield tanking in favor of armor and still be just as successful.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#27 - 2013-02-03 23:37:26 UTC
Iagus Damaclese wrote:
Commander Ted wrote:
Iagus Damaclese wrote:
There is absolutely nothing wrong with shield tanking as it is and no reason to nerf it, especially since armor tanking is going to be getting buffed. Shields are fine where they are, I personally will not take a shield tanked vessel into a PVP environment but i use shields for PVE all the time, and I would not take an armor tanked vessel into a PVE environment as it is best used for PVP. A player who does not pursue both should do so, as it only makes your character more versatile and expands your options for fitting ships. It also make your life a whole lot easier.

Why? You provide no specifics for why one is better you just say that one is. I will argue that shield is the supierior tanking type in many more cases than armor is. Prove me wrong.


In the case of T1 vessels, Armor tank reigns king, why? well it probably has something to do with the fact that all vessels, ALL VESSELS, get better armor resists than they do shield resists to begin with. Dont believe me? go look for yourself. About the only vessels where Shield tanking is truely worth using in either PVP or PVE is in the case of the Tengu, and of course caldari ships as well, and even still i would not use a Tengu in PVP. Yeah sure you got all those nice shields and that nice shield booster but I just disrupted your tracking computer, started draining your cap, webbed you, warp disrupted you and I am moving at 300kms or more with a light armor tank and you wanna know why? because as it stand right now, any ship running a shield tank of any type is more than likely just barely cap stable in one way or another which even a small energy destabilizer can throw off and make worse than it is.

As I said before if anything shield tanking needs a bit of a buff, especially to the AI field II's resist boosts.



Two words for you:

Buffer Tank.
Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#28 - 2013-02-03 23:45:37 UTC
Iagus Damaclese wrote:


Well at least you have admitted to your ignorance. You do make good points about the shield tanking ships however it is very specific vessels that are capable of these shield tanking fits, armor tanking efficiency is pretty universal though until of course you get to T2 vessels in which case shield tanking begins to be more efficient thank armor tanking, however I have seen people drop shield tanking in favor of armor and still be just as successful.


Being condescending is not appreciated in a public discussion area for mature arguments. Stop it.

What your saying is utterly false. http://eve.battleclinic.com/item_database.php?id=i627&tab=recommended_loadouts#kbLoadouts
Taking one of the more popular t1 cruisers as an example you will see that most of the fits seen in combat are shield thoraxes.

You will see the same thing with the vexor
http://eve.battleclinic.com/item/i626-Vexor-details.html#kbLoadouts
A surprisingly large number are either shield fitted or tankless rather than fitting armor.

Shield arbitrators are effective to,
http://eve.battleclinic.com/item/i628-Arbitrator-details.html#kbLoadouts

On a ship that lacks t2 resists, the cynabal all the fits are shield despite having a dizzying array of both low and mid slots.
http://eve.battleclinic.com/item/i17720-Cynabal-details.html#kbLoadouts

Almost nobody in their right mind flies a armor brutix, small sample size but still
http://eve.battleclinic.com/item/i16229-Brutix-details.html#kbLoadouts

Nobody fits armor on a talos, period
http://eve.battleclinic.com/item/i4308-Talos-details.html#kbLoadouts

The mighty rupture even prefers shields:
http://eve.battleclinic.com/item/i629-Rupture-details.html#kbLoadouts

Don't forget shield hurricanes and shield harbingers are enormously popular.

Point being on a ship where both setups are possible, most usually prefer shields over armor, why? Because its fast, does facemelting dps, and provides adequate buffer even when the fit doesn't need it.

The drake is a brick that when fitted with hams hurls enourmous dps. The brutix on the other hand gains little from its extra mid and lacks tactical options in an armor setup.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec.
Iagus Damaclese
Doomheim
#29 - 2013-02-03 23:54:18 UTC
Commander Ted wrote:
Iagus Damaclese wrote:


Well at least you have admitted to your ignorance. You do make good points about the shield tanking ships however it is very specific vessels that are capable of these shield tanking fits, armor tanking efficiency is pretty universal though until of course you get to T2 vessels in which case shield tanking begins to be more efficient thank armor tanking, however I have seen people drop shield tanking in favor of armor and still be just as successful.


Being condescending is not appreciated in a public discussion area for mature arguments. Stop it.

What your saying is utterly false. http://eve.battleclinic.com/item_database.php?id=i627&tab=recommended_loadouts#kbLoadouts
Taking one of the more popular t1 cruisers as an example you will see that most of the fits seen in combat are shield thoraxes.

You will see the same thing with the vexor
http://eve.battleclinic.com/item/i626-Vexor-details.html#kbLoadouts
A surprisingly large number are either shield fitted or tankless rather than fitting armor.

Shield arbitrators are effective to,
http://eve.battleclinic.com/item/i628-Arbitrator-details.html#kbLoadouts

On a ship that lacks t2 resists, the cynabal all the fits are shield despite having a dizzying array of both low and mid slots.
http://eve.battleclinic.com/item/i17720-Cynabal-details.html#kbLoadouts

Almost nobody in their right mind flies a armor brutix, small sample size but still
http://eve.battleclinic.com/item/i16229-Brutix-details.html#kbLoadouts

Nobody fits armor on a talos, period
http://eve.battleclinic.com/item/i4308-Talos-details.html#kbLoadouts

The mighty rupture even prefers shields:
http://eve.battleclinic.com/item/i629-Rupture-details.html#kbLoadouts

Don't forget shield hurricanes and shield harbingers are enormously popular.

Point being on a ship where both setups are possible, most usually prefer shields over armor, why? Because its fast, does facemelting dps, and provides adequate buffer even when the fit doesn't need it.

The drake is a brick that when fitted with hams hurls enourmous dps. The brutix on the other hand gains little from its extra mid and lacks tactical options in an armor setup.


The above links mean nothing, I have seen fleets off both types of tanks win fights and there for I continue to stick with my original stance in that there is nothing wrong with shield tanking.

Oh by the way, I was not being condescending, I was simply agreeing with you being condescending towards yourself.
Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#30 - 2013-02-04 00:01:23 UTC
Iagus Damaclese wrote:


The above links mean nothing, I have seen fleets off both types of tanks win fights and there for I continue to stick with my original stance in that there is nothing wrong with shield tanking.

Oh by the way, I was not being condescending, I was simply agreeing with you being condescending towards yourself.

I saying that you were saying I was ignorant obviously. So either you actually thought I was calling myself ignorant or your a massive ass.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec.
androch
LitlCorp
#31 - 2013-02-04 00:20:03 UTC
Commander Ted wrote:
Iagus Damaclese wrote:
[
In the case of T1 vessels, Armor tank reigns king, why? well it probably has something to do with the fact that all vessels, ALL VESSELS, get better armor resists than they do shield resists to begin with. Dont believe me? go look for yourself. About the only vessels where Shield tanking is truely worth using in either PVP or PVE is in the case of the Tengu, and of course caldari ships as well, and even still i would not use a Tengu in PVP. Yeah sure you got all those nice shields and that nice shield booster but I just disrupted your tracking computer, started draining your cap, webbed you, warp disrupted you and I am moving at 300kms or more with a light armor tank and you wanna know why? because as it stand right now, any ship running a shield tank of any type is more than likely just barely cap stable in one way or another which even a small energy destabilizer can throw off and make worse than it is.

As I said before if anything shield tanking needs a bit of a buff, especially to the AI field II's resist boosts.

Let us also not forget that shields have a more powerful omni resist buffing module so the fact they have lower base resists is not that relevant.
Wut? SHield tanking is terrible for pvp? Look out for all those 200 man drake fleets and maelstroms, the fact that the most popular fits on gallente ships battlecruiser and below are shield, the fact that shield passively regenerate health and control the battlefield, also your small neut is not going to do jack **** to stop my MASSIVE asb buffer. Try using your small neut as a trump card against my shield thorax. Try the fact that the drake and shield hurricane are the two most popular battlecruisers out their, the merlin will rock the **** out of any punisher.

In all the time ive been playing I don't think ive met anyone who says armor is straight up better for pvp (except on capital ships).



reactive armor hardener......also armor tankers get passive omni modules so QUIT BITCHING
Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#32 - 2013-02-04 00:22:20 UTC
androch wrote:

reactive armor hardener......also armor tankers get passive omni modules so QUIT BITCHING

Reactive armor hardner is mediocre and sucks cap better than an oreck. Passive omni modules give lesser buffs overall balancing the better base resists of armor. So it is an irrelevant point.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec.
serras bang
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#33 - 2013-02-04 00:23:42 UTC
im gonna have to agree with lagus a lot of shield tanking ships at least active tanked ships are barely cap stable if at all and generaly the only active shield tank ships that are stable is pve ones and i mean barely stable at around 30 - 35% i.e its enough to warp of if the situation should arise.

but most are passively tank i hear you cry or use asb ? well passive tanking is a lil harder and usualy results in little pg or cpu left or not enough forcing use to sacrifice dps. as with the asb the asb has such a massive cap useage that in most situations it must run on cap boosters with btw take up a lot of room in cargo holds and take i bilieve 60 seconds to reload so it has a massive massive hole for you to exploit.
Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#34 - 2013-02-04 00:33:55 UTC
serras bang wrote:
im gonna have to agree with lagus a lot of shield tanking ships at least active tanked ships are barely cap stable if at all and generaly the only active shield tank ships that are stable is pve ones and i mean barely stable at around 30 - 35% i.e its enough to warp of if the situation should arise.

but most are passively tank i hear you cry or use asb ? well passive tanking is a lil harder and usualy results in little pg or cpu left or not enough forcing use to sacrifice dps. as with the asb the asb has such a massive cap useage that in most situations it must run on cap boosters with btw take up a lot of room in cargo holds and take i bilieve 60 seconds to reload so it has a massive massive hole for you to exploit.


Your ship is perfectly cap stable if your using ASBs or buffer. If your using normal boosters then go run more level 4's as this change would not affect regular active tanked shield users at all.

Don't have to tell me how the ASB works, I have flown many ASB ships and it is EXTREMELY powerful.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#35 - 2013-02-04 00:34:12 UTC
serras bang wrote:
im gonna have to agree with lagus a lot of shield tanking ships at least active tanked ships are barely cap stable if at all and generaly the only active shield tank ships that are stable is pve ones and i mean barely stable at around 30 - 35% i.e its enough to warp of if the situation should arise.

but most are passively tank i hear you cry or use asb ? well passive tanking is a lil harder and usualy results in little pg or cpu left or not enough forcing use to sacrifice dps. as with the asb the asb has such a massive cap useage that in most situations it must run on cap boosters with btw take up a lot of room in cargo holds and take i bilieve 60 seconds to reload so it has a massive massive hole for you to exploit.



Cap stability is irrelevant in PVP. Burst tanking and all that.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#36 - 2013-02-04 01:38:41 UTC
lets wait and see what the changes to armour do first before nerfing shields. it wont make armour tanking as fast as shield tanking, but maybe the combination of the agility buff and smaller sig will work.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Seranova Farreach
Biomass Negative
#37 - 2013-02-05 13:09:24 UTC
Naomi Anthar wrote:
Seranova Farreach wrote:
if the OP has actually read armor tanking 1.5 they are makeing all armor ships/plates lighter and giving a skill to make them even lighter. quit whineing cause armor is balanced vs shield atm cause of ASBs.


ASBs are source of all imbalance not balance.


no they arnt asb's are what was needed by shield tankers to level the field and then people who fly armor cry cause theyr tanked hard to kill armor ships are finally on a toe to toe with shield.

[u]___________________ http://i.imgur.com/d9Ee2ik.jpg[/u]
Drake Doe
88Th Tax Haven
#38 - 2013-02-05 14:00:18 UTC
A decent fix to this imo, med slot damage modules. It would remove shield tanker's advantage of being able to fill their slots that aren't required for tanking with dps raisers.

"The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! pops more corn" ---Evernub--
De'Veldrin
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#39 - 2013-02-05 14:17:21 UTC
Drake Doe wrote:
A decent fix to this imo, med slot damage modules. It would remove shield tanker's advantage of being able to fill their slots that aren't required for tanking with dps raisers.


I don't think we need 2000 DPS glass cannon hurricanes.

De'Veldrin's Corollary (to Malcanis' Law): Any idea that seeks to limit the ability of a large nullsec bloc to do something in the name of allowing more small groups into sov null will inevitably make it that much harder for small groups to enter sov null.
Nagarythe Tinurandir
Einheit X-6
#40 - 2013-02-05 14:19:40 UTC
let active shield rigs eat CPU (as active armor rigs will eat PG with patch)
let passive shield rigs lower the speed gain of AB and MWD or change tracking/dmg formular so that signature penalty actually is a penalty.
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