EVE General Discussion

Nope. If they couldn't be sold, it would, but they can be, so there it is, kicking you right square in the argument.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

Look, if I can invent, produce, and sell ten of X in the same time Johnny T2 BPO holder, can only produce and sell two, yet with all costs and associated fees I get a profit per unit of say 1 milion ISK, and he with his well researched BPO can make a profit of 4 million ISK per unit, who is coming out ahead? If the market changes to where I don't make a profit on X I don't produce X, and if Y becomes the new hot thing, then Johnny T2 BPO holder is stuck producing X, while I can switch to Y.

Inventing a Rapier using Operations Handbook will get you 10m profit/unit.
Zealot with Sacred manifesto will get you 8m/unit.

Both regularly are quite a bit better, but the market swings as tons of people pile on, driving material prices up and sale prices down.

If you think T2 BPOs are so overpowered, why haven't you bought one?

Any method of seeding an unlimited amount of T2BPOs would murder invention, so no.

T2 BPOs have no effect on inventor's ability to make ISK, and have no negative market impact that I can think of (providing base supply is a good thing for the marked, because it prevents uncommon items from being prohibitively expensive). They're also terrible investments by any measure.

The T2 BPO problem was discussed over and over again ever since the implemention of the T2 invention process. The point is, CCP did their database shenanigans on the T2 market and came up with numbers that support the claims of many of the people in this very thread: they do negligible effect to it, especially if compared to the difficulty of actually obtaining them in the first place. Back in the days of T2 lottery (the original precursor to the invention) people would be gathering the research points from agents to get a hair-thin chance of getting a T2 bpo. CCP decided to leave the T2 bpos as they were in recognition of the amount of work and/or luck involved in the acquisition of the said bpos by the people who hold them.
In short: T2 bpos are, in fact, an easy source of money, but they do not impact the current T2 market in any significant way due to wide availability of T2 bpcs obtainable via the invention system.

Whow, that was interesting to read.

How does this relate to exchange traded commodities at all?

Only on the Eve forums could you want to put specific ID tags on identical products to differentiate them, then get into an argument about utility theory in order to support the idea.

I always want so badly to believe the Austrians, but they are wrong. A deflationary monetary system causes risk to be hideously over weighted, instead of creating wealth and opportunity it strangles innovation and development as capital gets locked up in the most conservative "investments" possible, buried in a safe under the house. I wonder what the old gnome would say about mudflation =-D

Commodities markets create insurance for the producer while allowing investors to profit from well managed risk. Wall street markets are just a government subsidized Ponzi scheme. Eve markets are a combination of retail and speculation. Pork bellies, consumer electronics and afterburners are different animals and our conversation has started to look at them as though they are the same.

Maybe what should happen is that the consumer markets in eve should be separated from the investment markets. As it stands now they are the same interface. But it would be kind of neat if there was a difference; consumer markets could be set up to simplify and expedite the process of fitting ships and gear while the investment markets could be be given more tools for estimating things like future costs or transport expenses.

Regardless of the homogeneous nature of rl commodities those items do list source and transfer points for purposes of transparency and safety. Eve goods are also homogeneous, that fact in no way precludes the individualization of those items with specific information about source and history. In fact it would make the game a richer more interesting place. That by itself is enough reason to consider implementing such a thing; but the added bonus of allowing traders and manufacturers more options for interaction and conflict makes it a great idea that should be implemented.

I think T2 BPO owners need to admit that they make really really good money. For that Sleipnir bit for instance, if you have a ME 100 PE 50 Sleipnir, which is reasonable. You can make 5,162,779.89 ISK PER HOUR. That's 123,906,717.36 ISK per day from one T2 BPO. It's because you can produce 1.166 ships per day, (with a 4% industry implant) as well as pay for less materials compared to invention.

Invention made BPCs have to be invented which limits the amount of BPCs you can get in one day. Their ME values range from -6 to -1. And their PE values range from -4 to PE 1. Best comparison you can get is 1.042 (PE 1), or 0.469 (PE -4) Sleipnir ships a day (for invention values), or always 1.166 Sleipnir ships a day for a PE 50 BPO whenever you produce it.

Paying for materials for a ME-1 Sleipnir BPC, (the best you can get), costs 189,883,804.80 (costs taken on 26th January 2013), for a ME 100 BPO it costs 158,666,609.14 -31,217,195.66 ISK less. The question also remains is how many T2 BPOs are there? There are upwards of ten Claymores sold per day (volumes taken from Jita) and yet to invent at optimal costs it you lose millions. So there must be at least eight or nine Claymore T2 BPOs out there, and only for Jita.

It's no wonder that a lot of people defend T2 BPOs. They have a lot to lose. But you need to look at this from the stand point of the betterment of gameplay. The core purpose of inventing or making T2 items is for their consumption. And these things will continue being produced even if you remove (or dismember) T2 BPOs. They're not needed but they do benefit very few players. There are a lot of lies repeated about T2 BPOs for some strange reason, ie, it's not profitable to use T2 BPO's that's just flat out wrong. You can research them and for high material cost items you can produce ships or modules for millions less than an inventor can, and at higher volumes. Will you stop talking out of your collective arses please.

I don't feel happy about being stepped upon. Why should I approve the use of T2 BPOs when they're seemingly going to be used for years to come and I need to struggle up hill?

TL;DR BPOs need no invention, produce things quicker and for much less, (saved costs depend on how expensive the item is (obviously after BPO research)). Not needed. Benefit select few. They do restrict certain markets to the point of being a money pit for inventors, (like certain command ships being one). At the core unfair and not needed for EVE Online.

Thanks for reading! Donate ISKies if you're feeling generous about the cause of T2 inventors!

Gee, you people are so silly, of course T2 BPOs are wortless, just look at a -1/-1 curse BPC, it only cost 139m to produce from one, when a curse only costs 138. Clearly it cannot be because a 10ME BPO, at this price, produce the same ship with 20m profit.
Clearly the fast that the BPO owner could sell it for 10* his yearly profit TOTALLY negates how it fucks up the market for anyone who would like to invent it.

The existence of a finite quantity of T2 BPO which can only change hand if their current owner whish to is bad for eve's economy, period. Weither or not it's worth it to own one is irrelevant to the damage they cause to the game.

Maybe if they were not superiors to invention in every possible ways their existence wouldnt be as harmful. But they are, and parasite the T2 market with lower costs (both in player's time and in materials).