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An End to Suffering
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Silas Vitalia
Doomheim
#21 - 2013-02-03 19:12:12 UTC
I just like how within a page or two of debate the most 'humanitarian' of well-wishers are always revealed to be no better than any of the supposed 'monsters' in the cluster.

Wanting the best for humanity (according to people like you) always ends up forcing a great many people do to things against their will in an authoritarian manner. And of course 'your' way is only for their own good!

Sabik now, Sabik forever
Streya Jormagdnir
Alexylva Paradox
#22 - 2013-02-03 19:57:02 UTC
And where did I say that? I just explicitly stated:

Streya Jormagdnir wrote:

It's not like living in such a society would be forced upon anyone. There is plenty of space in space.

I am also a human, straggling between the present world... and our future. I am a regulator, a coordinator, one who is meant to guide the way.

Destination Unreachable: the worst Wspace blog ever
Silas Vitalia
Doomheim
#23 - 2013-02-03 20:01:33 UTC
Streya Jormagdnir wrote:
And where did I say that? I just explicitly stated:

Streya Jormagdnir wrote:

It's not like living in such a society would be forced upon anyone. There is plenty of space in space.




Ah you are of course right, in your glorious world baseliners can be immortal so long as they are forcibly sterilized.

They can of course refuse and die of old age and disease if they like.

False-choices are excellent! Take it from someone who often presents such lovely dilemas to our prey, they can be a real hoot. Good to see you joining the club.

Sabik now, Sabik forever
Streya Jormagdnir
Alexylva Paradox
#24 - 2013-02-03 20:09:29 UTC
Silas Vitalia wrote:


Ah you are of course right, in your glorious world baseliners can be immortal so long as they are forcibly sterilized.

They can of course refuse and die of old age and disease if they like.

False-choices are excellent! Take it from someone who often presents such lovely dilemas to our prey, they can be a real hoot. Good to see you joining the club.



It would be a conscious choice of will. There are cases where you can't have your cake and eat it too.

Of course, more solutions may lie in digitalization of the human consciousness. With more advanced memory storage capability, more and more minds could be backed up by an increasingly sophisticated database. Meanwhile the individual minds would be able to interact with a virtual representation of the "outside" world, or interact within an entirely new, virtual world. This probably wouldn't be appealing to most people at first, however. It would certainly be a dramatic shift in the human condition.

Unless you have a better idea? You stated the choice as being a false-dilemma, implying that both choices are mutually viable. What are your thoughts?

I am also a human, straggling between the present world... and our future. I am a regulator, a coordinator, one who is meant to guide the way.

Destination Unreachable: the worst Wspace blog ever
Silas Vitalia
Doomheim
#25 - 2013-02-03 20:26:01 UTC
Right, billions of minds all living in a virtual world as digital simulations. Now I've heard everything!


It's your thread, I'm merely providing the lovely Devil's advocate position.

Don't worry about me, I'll let you know when I'm Empress.

Sabik now, Sabik forever
Streya Jormagdnir
Alexylva Paradox
#26 - 2013-02-03 20:29:12 UTC
Silas Vitalia wrote:
Right, billions of minds all living in a virtual world as digital simulations. Now I've heard everything!


It's your thread, I'm merely providing the lovely Devil's advocate position.

Don't worry about me, I'll let you know when I'm Empress.


Silas Vitalia for Empress, YC215?

In any case, the future holds exciting promise. I don't expect everyone to agree with me, of course. If these sorts of ideas work out, then they'll stand on their own merits. If they don't, then they don't and someone else in the future will come up with something better. It really is that simple.

I am also a human, straggling between the present world... and our future. I am a regulator, a coordinator, one who is meant to guide the way.

Destination Unreachable: the worst Wspace blog ever
von Khan
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#27 - 2013-02-04 00:12:39 UTC
Very interesting commentaries; specially Ms. Otsito's
Ms. Otsito as your statement reads, i presume you constantly challenge everyone and everything to justify your existence. Though I have a question... What would happen when you measure yourself to someone more vigorous than you... let’s say Ms. Vitalia here, would you concede victory to her world-view as an acknowledgment of superiority, or would you terminate your clone contract and allow nature run its course? However, I have to admit Ms. Vitalia’s comments show a better grasp of reality, they lack definition other than the pursuit of her happiness.
As Tiberious said Ms. Jormadgnir your heart is certainly in the right place, but in my opinion at the wrong time, such a project could only become possible when the Reclaiming of human dignity is attained. May this experiment serve you as a new reference to reflect upon our previous conversation.

von Khan
Vectra Sharpe
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2013-02-04 01:10:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Vectra Sharpe
Um... If I may, I'd like to offer my humble perspective. It seems to me that those who offer to fix everything, often cause more oppression and strife.

*lowers head and glances off to the side*

W-what I mean to say, is that there are people out there, capsuleers and baseliners alike, that thouroughly enjoy inflicting harm on others. Maybe for fun, or maybe because they just don't like you. The point I am making, is that not all humans have a redeemable spirit, you know? Do you propose we just kill them all because they don't agree with you? Does that make you any better than they are?

Or maybe just as bad, is that a lot of them don't care, if it isn't affecting them directly. Um, also... the 'false choices' as Ms. Vitalia put it would seem like an attack of the free will of many baseliner societies, even if that wasn't your intention. So what happens when the people who feel oppressed by the new changes rise up? There could be the potential for a war far greater than any of us can fight. As capsuleers, I feel like a great many of us think like we are invincible. I know I haven't been a capsuleer for nearly as long as some of you, but I know that just because I can be reborn, doesn't mean I can't die or feel pain. *takes a deep breath and closes eyes* Or maybe you just trust the people that run the cloning vats and FTL comm systems a lot more than I do.

I-I'm not saying there are no solutions to the issues of widespread war and famine. I just mean to say that eliminating them completely would be like eliminating the element of what it means to be human. Sorry for my rambling, I just... I don't think you are considering everything involved.

*makes a polite bow*

Thank you all for your time and consideration.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Streya Jormagdnir
Alexylva Paradox
#29 - 2013-02-04 01:32:25 UTC
Vectra Sharpe wrote:
Um... If I may, I'd like to offer my humble perspective. It seems to me that those who offer to fix everything, often cause more oppression and strife.

*lowers head and glances off to the side*

W-what I mean to say, is that there are people out there, capsuleers and baseliners alike, that thouroughly enjoy inflicting harm on others. Maybe for fun, or maybe because they just don't like you. The point I am making, is that not all humans have a redeemable spirit, you know? Do you propose we just kill them all because they don't agree with you? Does that make you any better than they are?

Or maybe just as bad, is that a lot of them don't care, if it isn't affecting them directly. Um, also... the 'false choices' as Ms. Vitalia put it would seem like an attack of the free will of many baseliner societies, even if that wasn't your intention. So what happens when the people who feel oppressed by the new changes rise up? There could be the potential for a war far greater than any of us can fight. As capsuleers, I feel like a great many of us think like we are invincible. I know I haven't been a capsuleer for nearly as long as some of you, but I know that just because I can be reborn, doesn't mean I can't die or feel pain. *takes a deep breath and closes eyes* Or maybe you just trust the people that run the cloning vats and FTL comm systems a lot more than I do.

I-I'm not saying there are no solutions to the issues of widespread war and famine. I just mean to say that eliminating them completely would be like eliminating the element of what it means to be human. Sorry for my rambling, I just... I don't think you are considering everything involved.

*makes a polite bow*

Thank you all for your time and consideration.


I thank you for your words. The ideas I propose will first be tested in Anoikis as part of a long-term colonization effort. This location will prove to at least be very defensible, although not invulnerable, against the sorts of people you mentioned. And while it is true that the road to "hell" is often paved with good intentions, a society in which every participants wants the system to work is the most optimal. That is why I chose Anoikis as a testing ground; anyone who colonizes the unknown systems does so of their own volition. I do not think of myself as invincible, but I do think humanity has a realistic shot at immortality through the use of technology. Not just we capsuleers, but all people. As for the elimination of problems destroying any sort of foundations of "human nature", I thoroughly reject any such notion of a static human nature. Humans are vibrant and dynamic beings and when optimal choices for a higher standard of living present themselves they get with the times, freely.

I am also a human, straggling between the present world... and our future. I am a regulator, a coordinator, one who is meant to guide the way.

Destination Unreachable: the worst Wspace blog ever
Vectra Sharpe
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2013-02-04 01:43:00 UTC
Streya Jormagdnir wrote:
As for the elimination of problems destroying any sort of foundations of "human nature", I thoroughly reject any such notion of a static human nature. Humans are vibrant and dynamic beings and when optimal choices for a higher standard of living present themselves they get with the times, freely.


I-I respect your view, but... I can't agree with you, I'm sorry. Maybe it is because I know what humans are capable of doing without remorse or sympathy, or maybe I just don't have the same faith that you do. I feel like to make everyone peacefully coexist, some form of forced thought alteration would have to be evident. I don't believe the atrocities commited by mass murder and corrupt governments can be blamed on lack of technology alone...

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#31 - 2013-02-04 03:04:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Scherezad
Vectra Sharpe wrote:
...
Welcome to space, pilot. I pray you find it warm and welcoming.
Vectra Sharpe
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2013-02-04 03:25:56 UTC
*makes a polite bow*

Thank you, Ms. Scherezad.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
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