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THE SOLUTION to the Local Argument has been found!!
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Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#81 - 2013-02-02 03:01:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Brooks Puuntai
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
solution to what? the pressing problem of too much pvp in 0.0?


Local works both ways, it can also be used to avoid PvP.

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#82 - 2013-02-02 03:22:04 UTC
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:

I thought you guys had "friends".

We do, but anomalies aren't a huge amount of isk, so sharing them and splitting the bounties gets you into diminishing returns real fast. I've put together ratting fleets to either help newbees who can't quite tank an anom on their own, ratting with a hostile bomber in system, or doing sec status grinding.

You have to run 3 Forsaken Hubs just to buy a BC hull, 4 if you want a tier3 BC. The loot isn't usually worth all that much either because they drop the same stuff as as they do in highsec. We usually let the newbees have the salvage so they can make some isk until they get into their own ratting ships.

Tell me more about ratting with a hostile bomber in system.

I'm sure we can find some people to hotdrop on you. Maybe we could spring for the elite BLACK LEGION

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#83 - 2013-02-02 03:34:40 UTC
Brooks Puuntai wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
solution to what? the pressing problem of too much pvp in 0.0?


Local works both ways, it can also be used to avoid PvP.

You say that like it's a bad thing.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#84 - 2013-02-02 03:40:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Brooks Puuntai wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
solution to what? the pressing problem of too much pvp in 0.0?


Local works both ways, it can also be used to avoid PvP.

Seems to work more one way then the other
To sum:
Nullsec + local = more ship kills then all other regions put together
wormholes - local = second only to highsec for least kills per secstatus inhabitant

i kind of like PVPing, i guess you can keep hitting a d-scan button every 2 seconds and call that pvp
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#85 - 2013-02-02 03:45:26 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Brooks Puuntai wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
solution to what? the pressing problem of too much pvp in 0.0?


Local works both ways, it can also be used to avoid PvP.

You say that like it's a bad thing.


Not really with current (lack of)intel tools for defense.

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#86 - 2013-02-02 04:01:48 UTC
Brooks Puuntai wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Brooks Puuntai wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
solution to what? the pressing problem of too much pvp in 0.0?


Local works both ways, it can also be used to avoid PvP.

You say that like it's a bad thing.


Not really with current (lack of)intel tools for defense.

Oh, you actually made a reasonable reply.
I'm disappointed now.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#87 - 2013-02-02 04:03:20 UTC
My bad.

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden
Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#88 - 2013-02-02 06:21:33 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:

Tell me more about ratting with a hostile bomber in system.

I'm sure we can find some people to hotdrop on you. Maybe we could spring for the elite BLACK LEGION


It helps if you have an obvious bait ship, are so rich that you only rat to provide salvage for newbees, and you check eve-kill first to see if they regularly kill ratting ships in bomber gangs.

I'm telling you guys, eve-kill is ruining PvP. You can use it to figure out the that the guy in the cloaky ship isn't very good with it, and he'll check the neighboring systems and then wonder off rather than engage. I was going to tackle and nuet the crap out of him, and let the newbees in fleet blow him up. Instead, we just kept shooting red crosses.

We really need to remove API verified killboards. All this free intel on K/D ratios, isk efficiency, and ship preferences are killing nullsec PvP.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#89 - 2013-02-02 06:32:59 UTC
true, nullsec PVP is only 52% of EVE PVP but if killboards were remove we could push that to 57 or even 59%
Stonecrusher Mortlock
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#90 - 2013-02-02 06:47:33 UTC
I'M not even going to read im just going to assume its 28 more posts seance my last comparing null sec to WHs and missing the point, that its not about removing your 2 inlet tools(there are only 2 local and the map info), its about making your HAVE to do something to deserve that amount of intel, much like everything else in eve, if your not willing to work for it you don't deserve it.





Intel, much like everything else in eve, if your not willing to work for it you don't deserve it, it should not be handed to you.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#91 - 2013-02-02 06:49:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Marlona Sky wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
here marlona is a graph of what happens if your 'remove local' idea happens

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-dggMmf2G15Y/UB853kxsYtI/AAAAAAAACTg/ZZjBBqtZ09U/s1600/Pop-vs-Kills-Jan-2012.jpg

You do realize that aside from no local, there is other major differences between unknown and known space right? If no local would destroy PvP like many of you keep proclaiming with the fear fallacy; then that graph would show ship percentage being close to zero percent.

Yeah I'm pretty familiar with wspace.
What you have to realize marlona is that with entry points that collapse if too much is brought through them (limiting the size of what an aggressor can bring, whereas a defender can stockpile indefinitely), that have a limited lifespan (creating a closing window of action for an aggressor to operate within) all in systems that are cynojammed (zero force projection, fight escalation), every aspect of wspace compared to 0.0, other then no local, is overwhelmingly geared to favor the defenders/inhabitants of a system. This is why wspace players are the biggest opponents to any changes to cloaking for example, because in their space it's balanced. If cloaking was ever nerfed/made detectable, wspace would be so geared towards the defenders that nobody would bother trying to attack anyone.

In your localless 0.0, the exact opposite would happen - kspace would be so overwhelmingly geared to favor the aggressors that nobody would bother utilizing or occupying the space. PVP would be close to zero percent, barring fights over moons and roaming gangs bumping into each other.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#92 - 2013-02-02 06:50:16 UTC
NPC corp poster, you can read the above post and pretend I addressed you as if you were a real person.
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#93 - 2013-02-02 12:08:40 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Brooks Puuntai wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
solution to what? the pressing problem of too much pvp in 0.0?


Local works both ways, it can also be used to avoid PvP.

Seems to work more one way then the other
To sum:
Nullsec + local = more ship kills then all other regions put together
wormholes - local = second only to highsec for least kills per secstatus inhabitant

i kind of like PVPing, i guess you can keep hitting a d-scan button every 2 seconds and call that pvp



You forgot to add that many, I'd even say a huge number of those WH kills are done by 0.0/low/high sec players who love to take "no local" lessons from WH inhabitants.

Lol

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Ohishi
Apocalypse Reign
#94 - 2013-02-03 16:27:44 UTC
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:
So wait... You want to create an option that would allow jita spammers to spam every local in the game? ShockedShockedShocked

I don't think you have really thought through this idea.

Allow them to join free, charge them ISK to transmit.

Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Seek what they sought.

Vexen Lyre
Doomheim
#95 - 2013-02-03 16:40:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Vexen Lyre
wow my theory was right. the same people who want npc corps wardeccable don't want immediate local to go.

i don't lose ships when i enter whspace and this means immediate local going won't change my play style at all in null!

wh space is a safe as null i don't have three million bookmarks and have to spam d-scan like a meth fiend!

so funny because immediate local going is a change that would make highsec wardecs on characters actually work.

Docked in Jita - Moon 4 - Caldari Navy Assembly Plant
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#96 - 2013-02-03 16:59:14 UTC
Vexen Lyre wrote:
wow my theory was right. the same people who want npc corps wardeccable don't want immediate local to go.

i don't lose ships when i enter whspace and this means immediate local going won't change my play style at all in null!

wh space is a safe as null i don't have three million bookmarks and have to spam d-scan like a meth fiend!

so funny because immediate local going is a change that would make highsec wardecs on characters actually work.


The issue with allowing wardecs on individuals, is it opens the door to griefing. Which is not good for business. Now adding some risk to NPC corps isn't a bad thing such as having them as quasi FW would give limited risk without full blown griefing. Also allowing people to dec the entire NPC corps, while a highsec warriors dream, would just end terribly.

The complete removal of local at this current time would be disastrous. It works for WH(kindof) because of non static entry points and random generated ones at that. In null however it will put the defender at a great disadvantage, especially with coalitions and FoF issues. If they improved on D-Scan or designed a system that tips the intel gathering ability for the defender then removal of local would be a good idea.

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden
Vexen Lyre
Doomheim
#97 - 2013-02-03 17:24:40 UTC
Brooks Puuntai wrote:
Vexen Lyre wrote:
wow my theory was right. the same people who want npc corps wardeccable don't want immediate local to go.

i don't lose ships when i enter whspace and this means immediate local going won't change my play style at all in null!

wh space is a safe as null i don't have three million bookmarks and have to spam d-scan like a meth fiend!

so funny because immediate local going is a change that would make highsec wardecs on characters actually work.


The issue with allowing wardecs on individuals, is it opens the door to griefing. Which is not good for business. Now adding some risk to NPC corps isn't a bad thing such as having them as quasi FW would give limited risk without full blown griefing. Also allowing people to dec the entire NPC corps, while a highsec warriors dream, would just end terribly.

The complete removal of local at this current time would be disastrous. It works for WH(kindof) because of non static entry points and random generated ones at that. In null however it will put the defender at a great disadvantage, especially with coalitions and FoF issues. If they improved on D-Scan or designed a system that tips the intel gathering ability for the defender then removal of local would be a good idea.


I'm not really arguing for removing local, just pointing out that nullsec alliance players know full well that wardeccing NPC corp players will cause the same behaviour as spotting non-blues in their sov because of local.

but they themselves don't want to lose their comfort zone any more than highseccers want to lose theirs.

Fully agree that a better d-scan system should be made. it's part fo the game that's still quite 'spreadsheety'

Docked in Jita - Moon 4 - Caldari Navy Assembly Plant
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#98 - 2013-02-03 18:09:42 UTC
Vexen Lyre wrote:

but they themselves don't want to lose their comfort zone any more than highseccers want to lose theirs.

Not really, things would be way more comfortable if local was removed. I like PVPing though so I want local to stay.
Vexen Lyre
Doomheim
#99 - 2013-02-03 18:31:52 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Vexen Lyre wrote:

but they themselves don't want to lose their comfort zone any more than highseccers want to lose theirs.

Not really, things would be way more comfortable if local was removed. I like PVPing though so I want local to stay.


that says nothing about when people aren't consensually exploding other people and enjoying the relatively safety of their sov space for farming ISK as they have a perfect intel tool for avoiding ganks.

Docked in Jita - Moon 4 - Caldari Navy Assembly Plant
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#100 - 2013-02-03 18:42:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
people get ganked in nullsec all the time, so much so that we have more losses then the rest of EVE put together. Did you know highsec systems are more dangerous then certain kinds of wormholes?
I'll be sure to evaluate your "pvp in nullsec is consensual and whs isn't" theory though with all the credence it deserves