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Industry needs fixes and improvements
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Corey Fumimasa
CFM Salvage
#21 - 2013-02-03 13:12:53 UTC
It would be great to see who made an item and how / where they made it, before you bought it. It would give Eve items a bit more nostalgia value and make the loss of such items more significant. Information like where the BP came from and who owned it, what manufacturing slot the item was produced in, and if your buying from a re seller or a manufacturer. Those kind of details would be a lot of fun.

As for buying from specific guys, hell yeah! As a buyer I hate .01 wars, I would definitely buy from sellers who stuck to round numbers. And boycotting anyone playing margin trade scams would be a good way to empower players.

Both traders and industrialists could use more tools for interacting with Eve, tools that would allow them to harm their enemies and help their allies.
Whitehound
#22 - 2013-02-03 14:01:46 UTC
Hemp Invader wrote:
Industry's not broken beyond repair but it needs some much needed fixes:

1. Remove Tech 2 BPOs
Nobody can compete with that guy that has an uber researched tech2 BPO and can produce stuff without the need for a pos, pos fuel, laboratories, invention jobs, datacores, a vast number of BPCs and other consumables. If you can compete, you will gain far less for a way greater effort. This removal is needed because players that have joined eve since 2006(?) can't obtain these tech2 BPOs via a game mechanic.

2. Ability to create a shopping list in-game
Please add this so we don't need to create a google docs spreadsheet with what we need to buy, etc. If it can be corporation shared that would be great.

3. Embargo
Let us see who we're selling, from whom are we buying. If we don't want to help a corporation/alliance, so be it.

4. Ability to buy/sell from a specific market order
The current mechanic allows bots to do the 0.01 isk games. You put the item up for sale at 100 million isk and some bot puts it in the next 5 seconds to 99.999999 million. If i want to buy from the 100 mil guy, let me do it.

  1. I agree with the removal of T2 BPOs. Either get rid of all of them or keep them in the game and alive. They still have an effect on the market and are also being traded for billions of ISKs. We do not need this. What CCP has done here is lazy and BS.

  2. You do not need a shopping list when you already have the Bill of Materials to a BP. One can use the Quickbar of the market window, too, and create a folder with all the things needed for an item. What would be useful is if I could enter the price of each item into the Bill of Materials right next to their quantity and it then tells me at the bottom the total amount, as well as to remember these values for each of my BPs.

  3. The anonymity of the market is needed, or else would we only get more alts. I already find it unnecessary that one can see in the transaction log who bought or sold stuff. People still buy and sell single units to see who I am. I'd rather have it removed than to have more transparency here.

  4. I'd rather have less freedom here. One can already buy an item for a higher price than what is shown. This leads to players entering the quantity as price and vice versa and only causes trouble. Instead, of allowing to buy from anyone to any price should one only be allowed to buy from the best offer and only for the shown price. If you think someone is using a bot then petition it.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Parsival
The Avalon Foundation
#23 - 2013-02-03 16:03:20 UTC
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
As a buyer I hate .01 wars


I really don't get this, as a buyer why care how the sellers interact with each other?

If sellers want to engage in price wars then more power to them, and to say they are all bots is simplistic by the way, As a seller I'd be much happier to have someone undercutting me by 0.01 of an isk rather than shitting up a market by sending a decent market freefalling towards cost/build price.
Glathull
Warlock Assassins
#24 - 2013-02-03 16:26:26 UTC
I kind of like the idea of a shopping cart. I could see it working in a couple of different ways. One way would be for eve to look at the ships you currently have in a station and automatically buy fitting modules for them that don't suck. It could be a big button that says "anti-suck me now."

The other way would be if it looked at the market for you and decided how you could make a profit and just bought the profitable items and maybe sold them for you too. You could just put in the amount of money you want to spend and the amount of money you want to earn and press the giant "WIN" button.

Also, I'm going to go out on a limb and bet that some people would probably mess up the win button.

I honestly feel like I just read fifty shades of dumb. --CCP Falcon
Pandora Barzane
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#25 - 2013-02-03 16:38:40 UTC
Hemp Invader wrote:
Industry's not broken beyond repair but it needs some much needed fixes:


2. Ability to create a shopping list in-game
Please add this so we don't need to create a google docs spreadsheet with what we need to buy, etc. If it can be corporation shared that would be great.

3. Embargo
Let us see who we're selling, from whom are we buying. If we don't want to help a corporation/alliance, so be it.




great ideas. specially the embargo. It would add another layer of consequences to the game. Now the market is a place where corps in war still do business with each other without maybe knowing it. With an embargo I can imagine you could break a corp to simply stop the supplies. You could maybe make an blacklist wich could be shared between corps and alliances.

Of course lot of market transactions are now done via alts, but thats where spying/intelligence should play a role.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#26 - 2013-02-03 16:38:51 UTC
Hemp Invader wrote:
Industry's not broken beyond repair but it needs some much needed fixes:

1. Remove Tech 2 BPOs
Nobody can compete with that guy that has an uber researched tech2 BPO and can produce stuff without the need for a pos, pos fuel, laboratories, invention jobs, datacores, a vast number of BPCs and other consumables. If you can compete, you will gain far less for a way greater effort. This removal is needed because players that have joined eve since 2006(?) can't obtain these tech2 BPOs via a game mechanic.


Not needed. Intelligently done invention does to T2 BPOs what alchemy does to moon mining: can effectively counter and even corner them.


Hemp Invader wrote:

2. Ability to create a shopping list in-game
Please add this so we don't need to create a google docs spreadsheet with what we need to buy, etc. If it can be corporation shared that would be great.


Could be nice but it's not needed, there are multiple 3rd party tools that do that in a so deep way that doing it in game would result in code bloat. Production tychoons would still win by using those better 3rd party tools.


Hemp Invader wrote:

3. Embargo
Let us see who we're selling, from whom are we buying. If we don't want to help a corporation/alliance, so be it.


Does not exist in a RL exchange, does not exist in EvE exchange. Exists in RL contracts and... guess what... exists in EvE contracts.

Commodities are commodities. Markets are there to optimize demand and supply with efficient pricing, not to engross someone's ego or help his friends / enemies.


Hemp Invader wrote:

4. Ability to buy/sell from a specific market order
The current mechanic allows bots to do the 0.01 isk games. You put the item up for sale at 100 million isk and some bot puts it in the next 5 seconds to 99.999999 million. If i want to buy from the 100 mil guy, let me do it.


That'd be terrible and would help RMTers while also voiding markets true function, which is to optimize exchanges at the best price and minimum spreads. Which involve taking stuff from within the spread not wherever one wants.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Kalle Demos
Ironic Corp Name
#27 - 2013-02-03 16:49:05 UTC
The major issue with [2] is CCP would have to add stupid UI features that would never be on par with 3rd party apps, you will have then just wasted their time on new UI features that are badly implemented.

Making UI in a game is so ******** and annoying its not even funny
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#28 - 2013-02-03 17:08:00 UTC
Hemp Invader wrote:


3. Embargo
Let us see who we're selling, from whom are we buying. If we don't want to help a corporation/alliance, so be it.


This is a good idea, but more than like an embargo should be done based on standings. Like one can place buy/sell orders avaiable only for corp/alliance/milita/positive standing. As you can do now for cropration contracts. This would increase the interaction margins for indutrialist groups.
Corey Fumimasa
CFM Salvage
#29 - 2013-02-03 17:41:17 UTC
Parsival wrote:
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
As a buyer I hate .01 wars


I really don't get this, as a buyer why care how the sellers interact with each other?

If sellers want to engage in price wars then more power to them, and to say they are all bots is simplistic by the way, As a seller I'd be much happier to have someone undercutting me by 0.01 of an isk rather than shitting up a market by sending a decent market freefalling towards cost/build price.

It just clutters up the market window. I would much rather have all items just rounded up to the nearest isk and put in the same group. I don't care what you guys do to each other to become first on the list.
Corey Fumimasa
CFM Salvage
#30 - 2013-02-03 18:02:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Corey Fumimasa
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:


Hemp Invader wrote:

3. Embargo
Let us see who we're selling, from whom are we buying. If we don't want to help a corporation/alliance, so be it.


Does not exist in a RL exchange, does not exist in EvE exchange. Exists in RL contracts and... guess what... exists in EvE contracts.

Commodities are commodities. Markets are there to optimize demand and supply with efficient pricing, not to engross someone's ego or help his friends / enemies.


Hemp Invader wrote:

4. Ability to buy/sell from a specific market order
The current mechanic allows bots to do the 0.01 isk games. You put the item up for sale at 100 million isk and some bot puts it in the next 5 seconds to 99.999999 million. If i want to buy from the 100 mil guy, let me do it.


That'd be terrible and would help RMTers while also voiding markets true function, which is to optimize exchanges at the best price and minimum spreads. Which involve taking stuff from within the spread not wherever one wants.


Markets are not entirely anonymous; especially on the retail level. Sony can charge a premium for the electronics because those items have a higher utility to a larger segment of the market; even though Toshiba has ta very similar QC record. The same holds true with their stock. As for raw materials Bethlehem steel is better than AHMSA , they both stamp their stock and charge accordingly.

Maybe Eve markets should be anon, but your argument about RL materials being anon is not entirely true.

And the function of markets is to maximize utility not value. Utility is a subjective valuation that varies from person to person. If someone is bothered by decimal pricing they may well be happy to pay more for a similar product, hence utility has been maximized.

If the idea of non anonymous markets in Eve bothers you it might be better to just explain why it bothers you personally. Rather than misrepresent easily verifiable facts in order to try and support a position.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#31 - 2013-02-03 18:17:30 UTC
Altessa Post
Midnight special super sexy
#32 - 2013-02-03 18:34:23 UTC
I approve. T2 BPOs should go. They do give an unfair advantage to old time players.

As a T2 producer, I am well aware of the cost contribution of invention. And just repeating that having a well researched T2 BPO does not help you is either ignorance or just bluntly lying.

And yes, there are several items on the market which cannot be produced competitively even with top skills. This does not appear fair to me.

On the internet, you can be whatever you want to be. It is amazing that so many people chose to be stupid.
Corey Fumimasa
CFM Salvage
#33 - 2013-02-03 18:51:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Corey Fumimasa
delete. terrible idea, need to think on that a bit more. Big smile
Altessa Post
Midnight special super sexy
#34 - 2013-02-03 19:26:39 UTC
It is a matter of overall game design. EVE is carefully designed to give long time players not too much advantage. All skills have a cap. So, every noob can close the gap to veterans in one field within 12-18 months.
This does not work for items which are no longer available to players. It breaks the overall design idea of EVE. And it questions whether EVE is still open for producers to join the game.

On the internet, you can be whatever you want to be. It is amazing that so many people chose to be stupid.
Parsival
The Avalon Foundation
#35 - 2013-02-03 19:30:20 UTC
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
It just clutters up the market window. I would much rather have all items just rounded up to the nearest isk and put in the same group. I don't care what you guys do to each other to become first on the list.



OK the market UI may not be particularly awesome, but when the only differentiation between sellers in EVE is price I don't see why it upsets you so much. At the end of the day price is the key mechanism for traders to work with and to strip that away from them would be highly unfair.
Glathull
Warlock Assassins
#36 - 2013-02-03 19:53:49 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
How Target Figured Out A Teen Girl Was Pregnant Before Her Father Did

real market isn't exactly anonymous.



That's fantastic. Of course, the angry dad is from Minnesota. The only state where dads think their daughters aren't having sex in high school. And the only state where people are polite enough to apologize when they're wrong.

I honestly feel like I just read fifty shades of dumb. --CCP Falcon
Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2013-02-03 20:12:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Mortimer Civeri
Altessa Post wrote:
I approve. T2 BPOs should go. They do give an unfair advantage to old time players.

As a T2 producer, I am well aware of the cost contribution of invention. And just repeating that having a well researched T2 BPO does not help you is either ignorance or just bluntly lying.

And yes, there are several items on the market which cannot be produced competitively even with top skills. This does not appear fair to me.

The only people who complain about T2 BPO holders, are ignorant or just "sour grapes" whiners.

As a T2 producer, I can far outstrip a holder of a T2 BPO as far as production. Yes, they have an advantage as far as material costs are concerned, but they can only produce a limited quantity in a given time frame from a single BPO, where I can have ten production lines cranking out T2 goods from many BPC's. I can make up for any shortfall of material profit by shear volume of sales. Add to the fact if the market shifts to make T2-X more desireable, than T2-Y, the holder of the BPO that produces T2-Y is screwed, where I can just grab a few T1-X BPO's and invent T2-X and start filling ten production lines of T2-X in about a week. As to those items where there is no profit to produce them, guess what, I don't produce them.

Really the lot of you are just: "WWWWAAAAHHH! Mommy CCP, it's not fair that Timmy has a T2 BPO and I DON'T!"

Industry does need a fix, but not the fixes the OP proposes.

"I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#38 - 2013-02-03 20:23:51 UTC
Altessa Post wrote:
I approve. T2 BPOs should go. They do give an unfair advantage to old time players.

As a T2 producer, I am well aware of the cost contribution of invention. And just repeating that having a well researched T2 BPO does not help you is either ignorance or just bluntly lying.

And yes, there are several items on the market which cannot be produced competitively even with top skills. This does not appear fair to me.



Do you understand the concept of opportunity cost?

The opportunity cost of using a T2BPO is roughly its sale price. So are you really saying that paying 200b for a 20b/year income is overpowered (or even worthwhile)?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Hemp Invader
Inverted Worlds.
#39 - 2013-02-03 20:39:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Hemp Invader
RubyPorto wrote:
Altessa Post wrote:
I approve. T2 BPOs should go. They do give an unfair advantage to old time players.

As a T2 producer, I am well aware of the cost contribution of invention. And just repeating that having a well researched T2 BPO does not help you is either ignorance or just bluntly lying.

And yes, there are several items on the market which cannot be produced competitively even with top skills. This does not appear fair to me.



Do you understand the concept of opportunity cost?

The opportunity cost of using a T2BPO is roughly its sale price. So are you really saying that paying 200b for a 20b/year income is overpowered (or even worthwhile)?


Do you understand the ratio of Reward / (Effort * Risk)?

Making money when using a tech 2 BPO is something like this:
1) Buy stuff from Jita/Rens whatever
2) Haul said stuff 3 jumps to the nearest station
3) Click once
4) Haul tech 2 item, insta sell or whatever
5)???
6) Profit

This kind of income is manly passive income because it involves roughly 2 hours per year. Yes...2 hours of playtime per year. Tell me another activity that can yield you 10 bil per hour in complete safety and no other person can fight back.

Quick question: How many tech2 BPOs do you have if you protect them so dearly?
Altessa Post
Midnight special super sexy
#40 - 2013-02-03 20:42:28 UTC
If someone has won a T2 BPO, "opportunity cost" flies out of the window. Thanks for you post.

It is true that bulk production can beat a T2 BPO (I once have to calc by how much when you consider that a BPO can be production time optimized). Nevertheless, the T2 owner will make more profit (roi) than you do. She will not suffer from any market shifts because there is a safety margin which others cannot beat.
If this would be pew pew there would be an uproar about the injustice. Math is lost on most...

On the internet, you can be whatever you want to be. It is amazing that so many people chose to be stupid.