These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Jita Park Speakers Corner

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

CSM December minutes: Nullsec

First post First post
Author
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#101 - 2013-02-01 23:00:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
DetKhord Saisio wrote:
Could it be Two step found the solution to macro/bot?
CSM Winter 2012 Summit Minutes, pg 78 wrote:
Two step reiterated that his issue was that players expect to have to deal with suicide gankers and that’s part of the risk you take from dealing with other players; having to worry about NPC’s behaving similarly was ‘changing the game’.

Instead of suicide gank groups like Goonswarm having all the fun, spawn NPC in high-sec that progressively grow in strength and numbers with duration in a spot. This would require testing and adjustment to make it work properly, but the end result is ridding all high-sec areas of afk players (mining/ratting/missioning/etc).

So what you'll be piloting your ship and expect to have to randomly tank 3 catalysts worth of damage for 15 seconds?
Two step's idea is dumb, just get rid of obvious wardec evasion tactics like NPC corps (instead of pushing an entire wardec-themed expansion while leaving the simplest corphopping practices unaddressed, rendering the whole thing pointless) and let highsec PVPers gorge themselves on these AFK loot pinatas. You see we already have this thing meant to help players combat endless isk and commodity injection into the game - it's called "PVP'.
Frying Doom
#102 - 2013-02-03 00:14:44 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
TBH I really don't like the idea of Super veld, yes more dangerous space should be more profitable and more friendly allowing all types of ore (with higher jump costs to protect hi-sec)

but not massively more profitable and as users set the price, the price of ABC and veld ect.. in Null would be set by the amount Null corps members actually mine.

They don't need some super veld to make it attractive.



Is like to see low ends added to spod first and see how that works out

That is the alteration I myself prefer as Spod atm is completely worthless but if it had to be the addition of normal ore I would prefer the normal ores to be added not some super ore. Lets face it you can never tell what CCP would do and Like tech, I would like the idea of super ore to die.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

Uncle Gagarin
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#103 - 2013-02-03 14:15:05 UTC
Well,

regarding NULLsec looking at ideas brought to the table ... I'm affraid that lesson from technetium was not taken,
lesson from drones was not taken aswell.

Creating areas rich in one way will brought another wave of bots.

What I also noticed most ideas will make actual aliances richer instead of bringing more ppl to NULL.

Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#104 - 2013-02-03 15:43:46 UTC
Uncle Gagarin wrote:
What I also noticed most ideas will make actual aliances richer instead of bringing more ppl to NULL.


How so? Most nullsec players have been clamoring for a revamp to nullsec that would ultimately do away with the top-down model, where alliances make money from static wealth sources, in favor of a bottom-up model where alliances can reliably be funded through activity in their space.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar

Hakaru Ishiwara
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#105 - 2013-02-04 14:56:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Hakaru Ishiwara
Andski wrote:
Uncle Gagarin wrote:
What I also noticed most ideas will make actual aliances richer instead of bringing more ppl to NULL.


How so? Most nullsec players have been clamoring for a revamp to nullsec that would ultimately do away with the top-down model, where alliances make money from static wealth sources, in favor of a bottom-up model where alliances can reliably be funded through activity in their space.
Oh, the irony. I am 100% behind the notion of the bottom-up income model, but who will it benefit the most upon release? The largest alliances currently in-game: Goons and TEST.

EDIT: It should be noted that there is little that CCP can do in terms of adjusting null-sec income potential w/o existing Sov holders reaping the benefit. Back when Tech was buffed 3+ years ago, the Northern Coalition (minus the dawt) reaped [squandered] enormous rewards while the rest of null-sec was left with devalued space and moons.

The best thing that CCP can do is to apply buffs and tweaks across all of null-sec, including -- to some extent -- in the NPC Sov regions.

+++++++ I have never shed a tear for a fellow EVE player until now. Mark “Seleene” Heard's Blog Honoring Sean "Vile Rat" Smith.

Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#106 - 2013-02-04 17:46:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
If Goons and TEST have the largest alliances and fleets, it follows that they require the most industrial activity to sustain that, which makes them highly vulnerable. Or would, if industry was done in their space. But it isn't. But even they're for it because not only does it mean all of their accounts can be active in their own space, but it means they could disrupt other alliances, including each other.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#107 - 2013-02-05 13:59:13 UTC
Hakaru Ishiwara wrote:
Andski wrote:
Uncle Gagarin wrote:
What I also noticed most ideas will make actual aliances richer instead of bringing more ppl to NULL.


How so? Most nullsec players have been clamoring for a revamp to nullsec that would ultimately do away with the top-down model, where alliances make money from static wealth sources, in favor of a bottom-up model where alliances can reliably be funded through activity in their space.
Oh, the irony. I am 100% behind the notion of the bottom-up income model, but who will it benefit the most upon release? The largest alliances currently in-game: Goons and TEST.

EDIT: It should be noted that there is little that CCP can do in terms of adjusting null-sec income potential w/o existing Sov holders reaping the benefit. Back when Tech was buffed 3+ years ago, the Northern Coalition (minus the dawt) reaped [squandered] enormous rewards while the rest of null-sec was left with devalued space and moons.

The best thing that CCP can do is to apply buffs and tweaks across all of null-sec, including -- to some extent -- in the NPC Sov regions.


Why shouldn't existing sov holders benefit from owning their space?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#108 - 2013-02-05 16:07:34 UTC
Hakaru Ishiwara wrote:
Andski wrote:
Uncle Gagarin wrote:
What I also noticed most ideas will make actual aliances richer instead of bringing more ppl to NULL.


How so? Most nullsec players have been clamoring for a revamp to nullsec that would ultimately do away with the top-down model, where alliances make money from static wealth sources, in favor of a bottom-up model where alliances can reliably be funded through activity in their space.
Oh, the irony. I am 100% behind the notion of the bottom-up income model, but who will it benefit the most upon release? The largest alliances currently in-game: Goons and TEST.

If it benefits us the most, it's because we've got the most pilots. But really, the income an alliance derives from bottom up income would basically be proportional to their size (or the size of the renters they install and tax, as the case may be). So what's the problem?

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal

DetKhord Saisio
Seniors Clan
#109 - 2013-02-06 18:09:36 UTC
Follow the money. That is a method to fix financial problems. The economy is flooded with easy money from all types of sources. Change it so those players have to actively work for their income.

1) Equalize / balance all the sources of income across similar areas i.e. nulsec income for any given profession should scale based upon security level of system.

2) Correct the broken tax system. Player corps require income, but industrial taxes do not all go to player corps and the "collection" aspect is not automatic for all professions. Equalize / balance all sources of income across all payroll / job types. Anyone training any amount of skill points should be able to potentially earn the same base amount of income, excluding special cases like elite spawns. A player's time spent in any activity should earn them an equal base salary, which in-turn earns a player corporation taxes. Game mechanics should influence players to not hide in npc corps via benefits of a social, economic, or other aspect. This would require removal of any non-active mechanics for income, like planetary interaction (PI)... or just make those professions require more reactive mechanics... kind of like how if you are a miner getting ganked in highsec.

3) Make it easier for all afk activities to be advertised to local, including missions, PI, mining, etc. You want to PI or rat or mine or whatever while you are afk? Fine, but others will see your afk location placed in local after about 5 minutes and be able to come kill you. I actively mine and feel afk miners should not benefit for running a macro.

tldr: In summary, potential for earning is way out of proportion. Player corporation tax system is broken. Make afk player location advertised in local.
Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#110 - 2013-02-07 15:36:55 UTC
DetKhord Saisio wrote:
3) Make it easier for all afk activities to be advertised to local, including missions, PI, mining, etc. You want to PI or rat or mine or whatever while you are afk? Fine, but others will see your afk location placed in local after about 5 minutes and be able to come kill you. I actively mine and feel afk miners should not benefit for running a macro.
.


You realize that anyone running a macro/bot/whatever will just incorporate whatever amount of keystrokes/clicks per X to keep from going AFK into their code, right?

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["

Frying Doom
#111 - 2013-02-07 21:30:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
mynnna wrote:
Hakaru Ishiwara wrote:
Andski wrote:
Uncle Gagarin wrote:
What I also noticed most ideas will make actual aliances richer instead of bringing more ppl to NULL.


How so? Most nullsec players have been clamoring for a revamp to nullsec that would ultimately do away with the top-down model, where alliances make money from static wealth sources, in favor of a bottom-up model where alliances can reliably be funded through activity in their space.
Oh, the irony. I am 100% behind the notion of the bottom-up income model, but who will it benefit the most upon release? The largest alliances currently in-game: Goons and TEST.

If it benefits us the most, it's because we've got the most pilots. But really, the income an alliance derives from bottom up income would basically be proportional to their size (or the size of the renters they install and tax, as the case may be). So what's the problem?

Personally I see no problem with bottom up income.

Yes the horror TEST and Goonswarm with their greater number of pilots will possibly get the most as they have the most pilots but even that is not a certainty as it will be he who has the most active characters wins. Which is what it should be.

Same way Sov should be done, by activity. To conquer a systems it should very much be you force the other guy out and then start using the system to remove his hold over it and then increase your own. Not shooting some structures, while your pilots try to remain awake, leaving half the planet out of it due to their TZ and making it hard for casual players to become involved.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#112 - 2013-02-07 23:56:45 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
mynnna wrote:
Hakaru Ishiwara wrote:
Andski wrote:
Uncle Gagarin wrote:
What I also noticed most ideas will make actual aliances richer instead of bringing more ppl to NULL.


How so? Most nullsec players have been clamoring for a revamp to nullsec that would ultimately do away with the top-down model, where alliances make money from static wealth sources, in favor of a bottom-up model where alliances can reliably be funded through activity in their space.
Oh, the irony. I am 100% behind the notion of the bottom-up income model, but who will it benefit the most upon release? The largest alliances currently in-game: Goons and TEST.

If it benefits us the most, it's because we've got the most pilots. But really, the income an alliance derives from bottom up income would basically be proportional to their size (or the size of the renters they install and tax, as the case may be). So what's the problem?

Personally I see no problem with bottom up income.

Yes the horror TEST and Goonswarm with their greater number of pilots will possibly get the most as they have the most pilots but even that is not a certainty as it will be he who has the most active characters wins. Which is what it should be.

Same way Sov should be done, by activity. To conquer a systems it should very much be you force the other guy out and then start using the system to remove his hold over it and then increase your own. Not shooting some structures, while your pilots try to remain awake, leaving half the planet out of it due to their TZ and making it hard for casual players to become involved.


Well Frying Doom you should read this blog post by Jester. Jester's Trek

If they did do the bottom up approach or by activity, they wouldn't be taking goonswarm's space. Most likely they would try to take Shadow of xXDEATHXx's space or other space owned by alliances like theirs.

So if your main objective is to overthrow the goons and stuff, the bottom approach won't work. If you just want space in null sec, and aren't too picky, there is space they could pick up or become a threat to.

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne

Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#113 - 2013-02-08 04:39:54 UTC
look out xdeath goons are after your space
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#114 - 2013-02-08 06:54:13 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
look out xdeath goons are after your space


Why would goons attack them?

I was mostly talking about the smaller alliances or newer ones, that support activity being the way to control gaining sov in null sec and that is only if they did to the activity approach. And that only implies they are smart. Even then if they did change sov to activity I do imagine some space loons would go after the goons, then complain they can't beat the goons, since they bot so much, and the botting increases their activity making it impossible to win. Also I am not saying goons bot, I don't really have an opinion, but it would be said most likely.

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne

Frying Doom
#115 - 2013-02-08 07:11:09 UTC
rodyas wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
mynnna wrote:
Hakaru Ishiwara wrote:
Andski wrote:

How so? Most nullsec players have been clamoring for a revamp to nullsec that would ultimately do away with the top-down model, where alliances make money from static wealth sources, in favor of a bottom-up model where alliances can reliably be funded through activity in their space.
Oh, the irony. I am 100% behind the notion of the bottom-up income model, but who will it benefit the most upon release? The largest alliances currently in-game: Goons and TEST.

If it benefits us the most, it's because we've got the most pilots. But really, the income an alliance derives from bottom up income would basically be proportional to their size (or the size of the renters they install and tax, as the case may be). So what's the problem?

Personally I see no problem with bottom up income.

Yes the horror TEST and Goonswarm with their greater number of pilots will possibly get the most as they have the most pilots but even that is not a certainty as it will be he who has the most active characters wins. Which is what it should be.

Same way Sov should be done, by activity. To conquer a systems it should very much be you force the other guy out and then start using the system to remove his hold over it and then increase your own. Not shooting some structures, while your pilots try to remain awake, leaving half the planet out of it due to their TZ and making it hard for casual players to become involved.


Well Frying Doom you should read this blog post by Jester. Jester's Trek

If they did do the bottom up approach or by activity, they wouldn't be taking goonswarm's space. Most likely they would try to take Shadow of xXDEATHXx's space or other space owned by alliances like theirs.

So if your main objective is to overthrow the goons and stuff, the bottom approach won't work. If you just want space in null sec, and aren't too picky, there is space they could pick up or become a threat to.

No actually my main objective for Null is that it should be used by players, fun and relatively profitable for them. I say relatively as I believe that dangerous space should be more profitable, my main dislike is that those who risk with POS/Outposts are not as advantage as those that just use NPC facilities.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#116 - 2013-02-08 07:16:13 UTC  |  Edited by: rodyas
^ Ah I see, I got caught up with all the discussion with goons and test pwning too hard, and wanted to state, that they also have activity as well as numbers, so not only do their numbers mean they will win.

Yeah I kind of agree with ya on that too frying. (Tech moons aside) I always just wanted to go to NPC null space since, it seemed to offer all null had but stations and not as antagonistic. (Also the tru sec anoms as well, suppose NPC isn't as good as that)

Yeah it would be cool to improve null sec that way. But towards the war side, I think it would be more surprising then anything about who gets attacked and stuff. Activity alone might not dethrone the goons, but other alliances would have to compete.

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#117 - 2013-02-09 11:09:54 UTC
rodyas wrote:
I always just wanted to go to NPC null space since, it seemed to offer all null had but stations and not as antagonistic. (Also the tru sec anoms as well, suppose NPC isn't as good as that)



Why haven't you?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#118 - 2013-02-09 11:23:14 UTC
After hearing stories about different ships and stuff ya can do down there. Makes me feel a bit silly heading down prematurely. Sadly I took the longer route in this game.

I don't mean risk adverse, I just took a really long skill plan, and will just make me feel like I am bringing a walkie talkie to a smartphone convention.

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#119 - 2013-02-10 10:28:31 UTC
Well if you can fly a T2 Frigate and a T1 Cruiser properly fitted, then that's the bare essentials covered IMO. I note that you've been pretty forthcoming with opinions about nullsec; wouldn't some personal observation be a stronger foundation to base them on than forum noise?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Uncle Gagarin
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#120 - 2013-02-10 11:22:05 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Hakaru Ishiwara wrote:
Andski wrote:
Uncle Gagarin wrote:
What I also noticed most ideas will make actual aliances richer instead of bringing more ppl to NULL.


How so? Most nullsec players have been clamoring for a revamp to nullsec that would ultimately do away with the top-down model, where alliances make money from static wealth sources, in favor of a bottom-up model where alliances can reliably be funded through activity in their space.
Oh, the irony. I am 100% behind the notion of the bottom-up income model, but who will it benefit the most upon release? The largest alliances currently in-game: Goons and TEST.

EDIT: It should be noted that there is little that CCP can do in terms of adjusting null-sec income potential w/o existing Sov holders reaping the benefit. Back when Tech was buffed 3+ years ago, the Northern Coalition (minus the dawt) reaped [squandered] enormous rewards while the rest of null-sec was left with devalued space and moons.

The best thing that CCP can do is to apply buffs and tweaks across all of null-sec, including -- to some extent -- in the NPC Sov regions.


Why shouldn't existing sov holders benefit from owning their space?


Why ? Because sov system is bad.
It's based on puting some structures or destroying other structures.
It should be more based on real activity. Some sov points per system, some gain/lose on pvp, on pve on mininng and exploration and finaly on industry. How calculate points it's absolute different subject.
Maybe areas hold by single aliance or other group would be smaller.
Maybe there would be more "kingdoms" instead of "empires".
But there would be more life, more activity, more pvp to keep or loose sov.
Finaly as pve and mining activities would be helping to gain or hold sov there would be a reason for sov holdedrs or pretenders to recruit not only pvp focused players but also pve, miners and industrialists.
That way finaly players would be lured to NULL as to new eldorado. High risk, high activity and high income.
That way higher income resulting from sov would be reasonable.

As I wrote you in other thread hisec is ok, problem is with null and LS.
You can't force people to leave Europe and go to Sahara by turning Europe to a desert.
Just give people reason to go to Sahara. Diamonds maybe, adventures maybe ...
But again, this is subject for another thread.

Cheers,