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Give Cloaking the ASB / AAR treatment
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Naomi Anthar
#61 - 2013-02-03 04:26:30 UTC
Tornadari Axonium wrote:
Naomi Anthar wrote:
Ok i know i did a bit of offtopic , but let's keep facts straight. ASB =/ AAR. The first one is absolutely superior. It really pains when people see any anything in common other than "ancilary".

About AFK cloaking i can just say. It's not problem so what about you live with it ? I kinda even find it funny that people are scared of someone else being in Local :D. Grow some balls and live with it. Being such coward that you need to be alone in local to feel safe is funny.


So,

You're trying to tell me that its not a problem that someone can sit in system cloaked up and at any moment uncloak and drop a cyno right on top of me for their fleet to come in and kill me?

Without me being capable of doing ANYTHING about it?

As i said before, something with no counter other than not playing is ****** game design.

If you read what most people are posting they're asking for a way to fight against it, not be 100% safe and not allow cloakers in system at all.


Ok maybe i'm wrong then. Oh well anyone can be wrong :D. At least i can admit. I leave topic as i feel clueless on this topic. I mean i understand it , but i lack exp about this stuff. So i will move to topics, where i have more to say xd.
Tornadari Axonium
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#62 - 2013-02-03 04:27:49 UTC
Naomi Anthar wrote:
Tornadari Axonium wrote:
Naomi Anthar wrote:
Ok i know i did a bit of offtopic , but let's keep facts straight. ASB =/ AAR. The first one is absolutely superior. It really pains when people see any anything in common other than "ancilary".

About AFK cloaking i can just say. It's not problem so what about you live with it ? I kinda even find it funny that people are scared of someone else being in Local :D. Grow some balls and live with it. Being such coward that you need to be alone in local to feel safe is funny.


So,

You're trying to tell me that its not a problem that someone can sit in system cloaked up and at any moment uncloak and drop a cyno right on top of me for their fleet to come in and kill me?

Without me being capable of doing ANYTHING about it?

As i said before, something with no counter other than not playing is ****** game design.

If you read what most people are posting they're asking for a way to fight against it, not be 100% safe and not allow cloakers in system at all.


Ok maybe i'm wrong then. Oh well anyone can be wrong :D. At least i can admit. I leave topic as i feel clueless on this topic. I mean i understand it , but i lack exp about this stuff. So i will move to topics, where i have more to say xd.


That would probably be good
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#63 - 2013-02-03 04:30:43 UTC
Tornadari Axonium wrote:
Naomi Anthar wrote:
Ok i know i did a bit of offtopic , but let's keep facts straight. ASB =/ AAR. The first one is absolutely superior. It really pains when people see any anything in common other than "ancilary".

About AFK cloaking i can just say. It's not problem so what about you live with it ? I kinda even find it funny that people are scared of someone else being in Local :D. Grow some balls and live with it. Being such coward that you need to be alone in local to feel safe is funny.


So,

You're trying to tell me that its not a problem that someone can sit in system cloaked up and at any moment uncloak and drop a cyno right on top of me for their fleet to come in and kill me?

Without me being capable of doing ANYTHING about it?

As i said before, something with no counter other than not playing is ****** game design.

If you read what most people are posting they're asking for a way to fight against it, not be 100% safe and not allow cloakers in system at all.

So instead, you prefer to be able to sit in null, and be perfectly capable of avoiding ALL FIGHTS unless you are able to drop 5 pilots for every one hostile?

nullsec and local is the bad design, not cloaking.




and besides, any cheesy-ass carebear solution null comes out with ALWAYS involves making wormholes impossible to operate in, as cloaks facilitate ALL of our activities.


Face it, the only people who think Cloaking is a problem are the kind of players who need to go abck high-sec low-sec anyways because they cant handle the "dangerous" bluefest of carebear heaven null is.
Tornadari Axonium
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#64 - 2013-02-03 04:34:38 UTC
Nariya Kentaya wrote:
Tornadari Axonium wrote:
Naomi Anthar wrote:
Ok i know i did a bit of offtopic , but let's keep facts straight. ASB =/ AAR. The first one is absolutely superior. It really pains when people see any anything in common other than "ancilary".

About AFK cloaking i can just say. It's not problem so what about you live with it ? I kinda even find it funny that people are scared of someone else being in Local :D. Grow some balls and live with it. Being such coward that you need to be alone in local to feel safe is funny.


So,

You're trying to tell me that its not a problem that someone can sit in system cloaked up and at any moment uncloak and drop a cyno right on top of me for their fleet to come in and kill me?

Without me being capable of doing ANYTHING about it?

As i said before, something with no counter other than not playing is ****** game design.

If you read what most people are posting they're asking for a way to fight against it, not be 100% safe and not allow cloakers in system at all.

So instead, you prefer to be able to sit in null, and be perfectly capable of avoiding ALL FIGHTS unless you are able to drop 5 pilots for every one hostile?

nullsec and local is the bad design, not cloaking.




and besides, any cheesy-ass carebear solution null comes out with ALWAYS involves making wormholes impossible to operate in, as cloaks facilitate ALL of our activities.


Face it, the only people who think Cloaking is a problem are the kind of players who need to go abck high-sec low-sec anyways because they cant handle the "dangerous" bluefest of carebear heaven null is.


>Want to be able to scan down cloakers so i can go fight
>Say that i want to avoid all fights

What?

You seem to be under the impression that hot drops are looking for fair fights.

Did you even read what i said? I'd be happy to gf any fleets that want to hot drop. The problem is they exclusively go for PvE fit ships for dem sweet elite pvp kms, which by the way have no hope against PvP fits.

What I'd prefer is me being able to proactively stop people shutting down any kind of economic activity in nullsec just by logging in and cloaking up. I'd prefer them to like, have to do SOME kind of work.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#65 - 2013-02-03 04:40:30 UTC
Tornadari Axonium wrote:
Nariya Kentaya wrote:
Tornadari Axonium wrote:
Naomi Anthar wrote:
Ok i know i did a bit of offtopic , but let's keep facts straight. ASB =/ AAR. The first one is absolutely superior. It really pains when people see any anything in common other than "ancilary".

About AFK cloaking i can just say. It's not problem so what about you live with it ? I kinda even find it funny that people are scared of someone else being in Local :D. Grow some balls and live with it. Being such coward that you need to be alone in local to feel safe is funny.


So,

You're trying to tell me that its not a problem that someone can sit in system cloaked up and at any moment uncloak and drop a cyno right on top of me for their fleet to come in and kill me?

Without me being capable of doing ANYTHING about it?

As i said before, something with no counter other than not playing is ****** game design.

If you read what most people are posting they're asking for a way to fight against it, not be 100% safe and not allow cloakers in system at all.

So instead, you prefer to be able to sit in null, and be perfectly capable of avoiding ALL FIGHTS unless you are able to drop 5 pilots for every one hostile?

nullsec and local is the bad design, not cloaking.




and besides, any cheesy-ass carebear solution null comes out with ALWAYS involves making wormholes impossible to operate in, as cloaks facilitate ALL of our activities.


Face it, the only people who think Cloaking is a problem are the kind of players who need to go abck high-sec low-sec anyways because they cant handle the "dangerous" bluefest of carebear heaven null is.


>Want to be able to scan down cloakers so i can go fight
>Say that i want to avoid all fights

What?

You seem to be under the impression that hot drops are looking for fair fights.

Did you even read what i said? I'd be happy to gf any fleets that want to hot drop. The problem is they exclusively go for PvE fit ships for dem sweet elite pvp kms, which by the way have no hope against PvP fits.

What I'd prefer is me being able to proactively stop people shutting down any kind of economic activity in nullsec just by logging in and cloaking up. I'd prefer them to like, have to do SOME kind of work.

Null sec PvE is a lie, there is no such thing. There is only shooting NPCs while you wait for PvP.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#66 - 2013-02-03 04:43:55 UTC
Tornadari Axonium wrote:
You seem to be under the impression that hot drops are looking for fair fights.

Did you even read what i said? I'd be happy to gf any fleets that want to hot drop. The problem is they exclusively go for PvE fit ships for dem sweet elite pvp kms, which by the way have no hope against PvP fits.

What I'd prefer is me being able to proactively stop people shutting down any kind of economic activity in nullsec just by logging in and cloaking up. I'd prefer them to like, have to do SOME kind of work.



Hot Dropping: Bridging is intended to bypass reinforced blockades and travel time. Here, it has been fine tuned to avoid advertising the presence of a fleet to the free intel tool as well by delaying the easily recognizable population spike till the last possible moment. The intention is to deny the warning local provides, although it still reports the presence of the cyno boat enough to be associated with AFK Cloaking instead.
Quite simply, while PvE pilots would never resume regular activities with a hostile fleet present, they are sometimes willing to gamble over whether a cloaked vessel represents that level of threat at a given time.


Your hot dropper is using the only method available to hunt their chosen targets.

With the powerful tool that is Local, and never forgetting that it is a double edged advantage that works for both sides, you get a stalemate effect.

Broken? Undeniably. But it is broken on BOTH sides. And that is perversely balanced.

It is BROKEN that local reports presence of cloaked vessels with zero effort. It would destroy balance to keep this intact and also allow for them to be hunted by additional means.
You already know it is BROKEN that the cloaked vessel cannot be found.

You can't keep balance, unless BOTH broken sides are addressed.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Hun Jakuza
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#67 - 2013-02-03 04:47:12 UTC
Naomi Anthar wrote:
I leave topic as i feel clueless on this topic.


Good bye. At least less person here, who lurks behind his alt. :D
Tornadari Axonium
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#68 - 2013-02-03 04:48:40 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Tornadari Axonium wrote:
You seem to be under the impression that hot drops are looking for fair fights.

Did you even read what i said? I'd be happy to gf any fleets that want to hot drop. The problem is they exclusively go for PvE fit ships for dem sweet elite pvp kms, which by the way have no hope against PvP fits.

What I'd prefer is me being able to proactively stop people shutting down any kind of economic activity in nullsec just by logging in and cloaking up. I'd prefer them to like, have to do SOME kind of work.



Hot Dropping: Bridging is intended to bypass reinforced blockades and travel time. Here, it has been fine tuned to avoid advertising the presence of a fleet to the free intel tool as well by delaying the easily recognizable population spike till the last possible moment. The intention is to deny the warning local provides, although it still reports the presence of the cyno boat enough to be associated with AFK Cloaking instead.
Quite simply, while PvE pilots would never resume regular activities with a hostile fleet present, they are sometimes willing to gamble over whether a cloaked vessel represents that level of threat at a given time.


Your hot dropper is using the only method available to hunt their chosen targets.

With the powerful tool that is Local, and never forgetting that it is a double edged advantage that works for both sides, you get a stalemate effect.

Broken? Undeniably. But it is broken on BOTH sides. And that is perversely balanced.

It is BROKEN that local reports presence of cloaked vessels with zero effort. It would destroy balance to keep this intact and also allow for them to be hunted by additional means.
You already know it is BROKEN that the cloaked vessel cannot be found.

You can't keep balance, unless BOTH broken sides are addressed.


They are polar opposites, you cannot address both without either

A. Giving one side a massive advantage
B. ******* the whole thing completely up

If you remove the ability to see activity in local you will provide people with litterally no capability of knowing there is a cloaker in system. You would have to constantly check EVERY ship on your DScan or have a pilot on every gate and wormhole in EVERY system.

Right now, cloakers can shut down an entire region with 30 pilots and there is no way to counter them other than to take the chance and probably get hot dropped or just leave the region. You should not be rewarded for not playing the god damn game.
Hun Jakuza
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#69 - 2013-02-03 04:49:18 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Null sec PvE is a lie, there is no such thing. There is only shooting NPCs while you wait for PvP.


Oh my godness. Another dual facepalm.
Iagus Damaclese
Doomheim
#70 - 2013-02-03 04:51:53 UTC
my suggestion
Tornadari Axonium wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Tornadari Axonium wrote:
You seem to be under the impression that hot drops are looking for fair fights.

Did you even read what i said? I'd be happy to gf any fleets that want to hot drop. The problem is they exclusively go for PvE fit ships for dem sweet elite pvp kms, which by the way have no hope against PvP fits.

What I'd prefer is me being able to proactively stop people shutting down any kind of economic activity in nullsec just by logging in and cloaking up. I'd prefer them to like, have to do SOME kind of work.



Hot Dropping: Bridging is intended to bypass reinforced blockades and travel time. Here, it has been fine tuned to avoid advertising the presence of a fleet to the free intel tool as well by delaying the easily recognizable population spike till the last possible moment. The intention is to deny the warning local provides, although it still reports the presence of the cyno boat enough to be associated with AFK Cloaking instead.
Quite simply, while PvE pilots would never resume regular activities with a hostile fleet present, they are sometimes willing to gamble over whether a cloaked vessel represents that level of threat at a given time.


Your hot dropper is using the only method available to hunt their chosen targets.

With the powerful tool that is Local, and never forgetting that it is a double edged advantage that works for both sides, you get a stalemate effect.

Broken? Undeniably. But it is broken on BOTH sides. And that is perversely balanced.

It is BROKEN that local reports presence of cloaked vessels with zero effort. It would destroy balance to keep this intact and also allow for them to be hunted by additional means.
You already know it is BROKEN that the cloaked vessel cannot be found.

You can't keep balance, unless BOTH broken sides are addressed.


They are polar opposites, you cannot address both without either

A. Giving one side a massive advantage
B. ******* the whole thing completely up

If you remove the ability to see activity in local you will provide people with litterally no capability of knowing there is a cloaker in system. You would have to constantly check EVERY ship on your DScan or have a pilot on every gate and wormhole in EVERY system.

Right now, cloakers can shut down an entire region with 30 pilots and there is no way to counter them other than to take the chance and probably get hot dropped or just leave the region. You should not be rewarded for not playing the god damn game.


my suggestion
Hun Jakuza
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#71 - 2013-02-03 04:55:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Hun Jakuza
Tornadari Axonium wrote:
They are polar opposites, you cannot address both without either

A. Giving one side a massive advantage
B. ******* the whole thing completely up

If you remove the ability to see activity in local you will provide people with litterally no capability of knowing there is a cloaker in system. You would have to constantly check EVERY ship on your DScan or have a pilot on every gate and wormhole in EVERY system.

Right now, cloakers can shut down an entire region with 30 pilots and there is no way to counter them other than to take the chance and probably get hot dropped or just leave the region. You should not be rewarded for not playing the god damn game.



If the local would be removed, the that's give for cloakers more power boost without counter.
Make intel from every 0.0 system, moving to eyes to every gate is impossible.
And would be generate the Dscan requestes massive lag to Eve when 30k pilot spamming dscan in 2 seconds.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#72 - 2013-02-03 04:57:29 UTC
Tornadari Axonium wrote:
They are polar opposites, you cannot address both without either

A. Giving one side a massive advantage
B. ******* the whole thing completely up

If you remove the ability to see activity in local you will provide people with litterally no capability of knowing there is a cloaker in system. You would have to constantly check EVERY ship on your DScan or have a pilot on every gate and wormhole in EVERY system.

Right now, cloakers can shut down an entire region with 30 pilots and there is no way to counter them other than to take the chance and probably get hot dropped or just leave the region. You should not be rewarded for not playing the god damn game.

So, you would maintain that the group effort needed to secure systems, even with the means to hunt cloaked vessels despite local chat not helping find them, is not balanced?

How exactly would someone hunting for you find you, if Local did not hand them your presence on a silver platter?

Perhaps you have not considered what a powerful tool local is for offensive use. It's loss in this manner would certainly open up new options for strategy, especially for PvE interested pilots.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Valleria Darkmoon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#73 - 2013-02-03 04:57:59 UTC
It's called making a call.

You see a non-blue in local you have three options:

1) Dock back up and wait for him to leave (true afk cloaker this won't happen) then whine on the forums
2) Ignore him and do what you're doing right under his nose (if he's afk nothing will happen anyway)
3) Move past him and do your PvE work in another system beyond his potential sight.

As someone else pointed out putting charges into a cloak will ruin so many ship types and won't even help you at all as it's very easy to just swap to an unprobable ship and sit there anyway (unprobable cyno ship is easily imaginable as a thing). So we're back to your options listed above as no solution ever proposed to "solve" AFK cloaking has ever not had much wider and more importantly unacceptable implications for the rest of the player base, so make your choice. Option #1 being by far the safest is the one most often picked, but asking the rest of us to change (ruin aspects of) the game for your feeling of safety is asinine.

As always leave it to the devs (which is a nice way of saying getting rid of AFK cloaks is not going to happen no matter what is suggested). Devs can reasonably be relied upon to make decisions that will ensure the health of their game over the long term. Players are very often ready to trade-off the entire future of a franchise for the sake of winning a fight tomorrow or making a few extra ISK today.

Can we let these threads die yet?

Reality has an almost infinite capacity to resist oversimplification.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#74 - 2013-02-03 04:59:11 UTC
Hun Jakuza wrote:
Tornadari Axonium wrote:
They are polar opposites, you cannot address both without either

A. Giving one side a massive advantage
B. ******* the whole thing completely up

If you remove the ability to see activity in local you will provide people with litterally no capability of knowing there is a cloaker in system. You would have to constantly check EVERY ship on your DScan or have a pilot on every gate and wormhole in EVERY system.

Right now, cloakers can shut down an entire region with 30 pilots and there is no way to counter them other than to take the chance and probably get hot dropped or just leave the region. You should not be rewarded for not playing the god damn game.



If the local would be removed, the that's give for cloakers more power boost without counter.
Make intel from every 0.0 system, moving to eyes to every gate is impossible.

That would almost lead to only capturing space that you have the manpower to defend. Oh no how terrybu

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Tornadari Axonium
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#75 - 2013-02-03 05:00:25 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Tornadari Axonium wrote:
They are polar opposites, you cannot address both without either

A. Giving one side a massive advantage
B. ******* the whole thing completely up

If you remove the ability to see activity in local you will provide people with litterally no capability of knowing there is a cloaker in system. You would have to constantly check EVERY ship on your DScan or have a pilot on every gate and wormhole in EVERY system.

Right now, cloakers can shut down an entire region with 30 pilots and there is no way to counter them other than to take the chance and probably get hot dropped or just leave the region. You should not be rewarded for not playing the god damn game.


So, you would maintain that the group effort needed to secure systems, even with the means to hunt cloaked vessels despite local chat not helping find them, is not balanced?

How exactly would someone hunting for you find you, if Local did not hand them your presence on a silver platter?

Perhaps you have not considered what a powerful tool local is for offensive use. It's loss in this manner would certainly open up new options for strategy, especially for PvE interested pilots.


If you jump into an enemy system, EVERYTHING you see on scan is going to be hostile so you do not need local for the most part. Local has 0 advantage to them but it is basically a requirement for the people on the other side.

If local does not announce your presence then how can people know to even look for you to begin with?
Hun Jakuza
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#76 - 2013-02-03 05:02:52 UTC
Valleria Darkmoon wrote:
It's called making a call.

You see a non-blue in local you have three options:

1) Dock back up and wait for him to leave (true afk cloaker this won't happen) then whine on the forums
2) Ignore him and do what you're doing right under his nose (if he's afk nothing will happen anyway)
3) Move past him and do your PvE work in another system beyond his potential sight.



1. Economical damage.
2. You will die very soon. (personal budget damage.)
3. What happen when all system spammed with cloaker ? (economical damage or you can choose the first two options)
Hun Jakuza
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#77 - 2013-02-03 05:03:53 UTC
Tornadari Axonium wrote:

If you jump into an enemy system, EVERYTHING you see on scan is going to be hostile so you do not need local for the most part. Local has 0 advantage to them but it is basically a requirement for the people on the other side.

If local does not announce your presence then how can people know to even look for you to begin with?



+1
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#78 - 2013-02-03 05:03:54 UTC
Tornadari Axonium wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Tornadari Axonium wrote:
They are polar opposites, you cannot address both without either

A. Giving one side a massive advantage
B. ******* the whole thing completely up

If you remove the ability to see activity in local you will provide people with litterally no capability of knowing there is a cloaker in system. You would have to constantly check EVERY ship on your DScan or have a pilot on every gate and wormhole in EVERY system.

Right now, cloakers can shut down an entire region with 30 pilots and there is no way to counter them other than to take the chance and probably get hot dropped or just leave the region. You should not be rewarded for not playing the god damn game.


So, you would maintain that the group effort needed to secure systems, even with the means to hunt cloaked vessels despite local chat not helping find them, is not balanced?

How exactly would someone hunting for you find you, if Local did not hand them your presence on a silver platter?

Perhaps you have not considered what a powerful tool local is for offensive use. It's loss in this manner would certainly open up new options for strategy, especially for PvE interested pilots.


If you jump into an enemy system, EVERYTHING you see on scan is going to be hostile so you do not need local for the most part. Local has 0 advantage to them but it is basically a requirement for the people on the other side.

If local does not announce your presence then how can people know to even look for you to begin with?

Wormholers seem to find hostiles with no local just fine.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Tornadari Axonium
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#79 - 2013-02-03 05:05:07 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Tornadari Axonium wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Tornadari Axonium wrote:
They are polar opposites, you cannot address both without either

A. Giving one side a massive advantage
B. ******* the whole thing completely up

If you remove the ability to see activity in local you will provide people with litterally no capability of knowing there is a cloaker in system. You would have to constantly check EVERY ship on your DScan or have a pilot on every gate and wormhole in EVERY system.

Right now, cloakers can shut down an entire region with 30 pilots and there is no way to counter them other than to take the chance and probably get hot dropped or just leave the region. You should not be rewarded for not playing the god damn game.


So, you would maintain that the group effort needed to secure systems, even with the means to hunt cloaked vessels despite local chat not helping find them, is not balanced?

How exactly would someone hunting for you find you, if Local did not hand them your presence on a silver platter?

Perhaps you have not considered what a powerful tool local is for offensive use. It's loss in this manner would certainly open up new options for strategy, especially for PvE interested pilots.


If you jump into an enemy system, EVERYTHING you see on scan is going to be hostile so you do not need local for the most part. Local has 0 advantage to them but it is basically a requirement for the people on the other side.

If local does not announce your presence then how can people know to even look for you to begin with?

Wormholers seem to find hostiles with no local just fine.


Difference is when you're in a WH both sides know exactly who is with them and who isn't and the space is hostile territory for everyone. In null sec that is beyond impossible to do with the amount of people in alliances.
Hun Jakuza
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#80 - 2013-02-03 05:06:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Hun Jakuza
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Wormholers seem to find hostiles with no local just fine.


Oh man, you realy can find hostiles if they dont want and cloaking there ?
And how many system you need to check, many fully regions where 10000 ally members live in ?