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Never cease to be amazed by the playerbase here...

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Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#61 - 2013-02-02 18:10:29 UTC
Mag's wrote:
PvP is not solely related or limited to combat and this is why Eve, is PvP centric.

Play the game however you want, it's not anyone's right to dictate that. Just understand that as a sandbox, others can do as they wish in game. Sometimes this messes with your goals and must be accepted.

Take what most say, with a pinch of salt.


No it has to be combat PVP. It is the only thing that matters in EVE Online Isk is a means to an end. Indsutry is a means to an end. One player could in theory mine, produce, and research his own weapons. This would make him independent of the market.He then can go blow stuff up. Stop feeding into the BS. The game is about combat PVP! Go get some!!!
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#62 - 2013-02-02 18:22:10 UTC
Aza Ebanu wrote:
Mag's wrote:
PvP is not solely related or limited to combat and this is why Eve, is PvP centric.

Play the game however you want, it's not anyone's right to dictate that. Just understand that as a sandbox, others can do as they wish in game. Sometimes this messes with your goals and must be accepted.

Take what most say, with a pinch of salt.


No it has to be combat PVP. It is the only thing that matters in EVE Online Isk is a means to an end. Indsutry is a means to an end. One player could in theory mine, produce, and research his own weapons. This would make him independent of the market.He then can go blow stuff up. Stop feeding into the BS. The game is about combat PVP! Go get some!!!


Stations trading, missioning, manufacturing, scamming, mining, pos crap, and all that other crap is legitimate ways to play the game.

People make billions of isk sometimes never leaving the station and thats all they do.

They enjoy the game the way they play and pay their subscription just like any PvPer.

Yes PvP is a big part of the in game economy but a player is free to chose a path that doesn't really involve PvP if they so chose (station traders can not be involved in PvP even if you war dec them because they never leave the station for example).

If that makes you mad, then well I think you would be more mad if you had to pay double or even 5 times the current price of your pvp ships because no one is making ships anymore because they are being forced to PvP instead of doing what they enjoy.

Ergo people who don't pvp help people that do PVP to do so.

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Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#63 - 2013-02-02 18:38:50 UTC
Aza Ebanu wrote:
Mag's wrote:
PvP is not solely related or limited to combat and this is why Eve, is PvP centric.

Play the game however you want, it's not anyone's right to dictate that. Just understand that as a sandbox, others can do as they wish in game. Sometimes this messes with your goals and must be accepted.

Take what most say, with a pinch of salt.


No it has to be combat PVP. It is the only thing that matters in EVE Online Isk is a means to an end. Indsutry is a means to an end. One player could in theory mine, produce, and research his own weapons. This would make him independent of the market.He then can go blow stuff up. Stop feeding into the BS. The game is about combat PVP! Go get some!!!

You have a lot to learn.

Yes, even non-combatants engage in PVP activities.
No, not all of those activities do (or need to) directly involve blowing someone up.

Combat is the main driver of the EvE economy, since virtual characters do not actually consume goods to survive like they do in a real life economy... but that does not mean all players must purposefully engage in combat.

You can be a perfectly happy and competitive (and even renowned) EvE player without ever doing more regarding combat than simply developing skill at avoiding it. If you don't think that's true you need look no further than Chribba.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Vexen Lyre
Doomheim
#64 - 2013-02-02 19:20:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Vexen Lyre
it's probably just the forums. I've never had issues in game and only overwhelming encouragement for trying out PvP. lots of 'gf' and o7 and even mails sent.

If you want to play this game you have to accept that it's massively flawed and how you think it should be played or how it used to be played may not equate to success in the game today. And maybe that will change and the choices I make today will be punished by future updates but that to me is just part of the risk/reward of playing.

And if you can't adapt then you might find yourself mooing about the flaws a little too much.

Docked in Jita - Moon 4 - Caldari Navy Assembly Plant
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#65 - 2013-02-02 19:29:38 UTC
Vexen Lyre wrote:
it's probably just the forums.

The forums are pretty bad.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#66 - 2013-02-02 20:04:20 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Vexen Lyre wrote:
it's probably just the forums.

The forums are pretty bad.


The EVE forums are the worst forums on the internet... Well, except for the reddit forums.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#67 - 2013-02-02 20:05:32 UTC
Michael Nezerol wrote:
I've played plenty of MMOs. But IMHO, the relative disrespectfull attitude towards people who want to take it more 'casual' (relative speaking, since there's no true 'casual' in this game) is amazing and annoying and one of the worst examples that I've met to date.


You clearly haven't played many other games then. This happens everywhere.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#68 - 2013-02-02 23:15:33 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Michael Nezerol wrote:
I've played plenty of MMOs. But IMHO, the relative disrespectfull attitude towards people who want to take it more 'casual' (relative speaking, since there's no true 'casual' in this game) is amazing and annoying and one of the worst examples that I've met to date.


You clearly haven't played many other games then. This happens everywhere.


I think the adversarial mechanics of Eve bring out the worst on the forums and on local. Such behavior in WoW or League of Legends gets reported and moderation punishments get delivered.

Despite what people say about ISD, they are really lenient when it comes to moderation.

You may take that as a postive or negative feature of EvE.

That said, in corporation chats and even in EvE public team speak server bad behavior and bad attitudes result in moderation.

As in kick/bans.

The forums are really not a litmus test of what normal people should tolerate.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

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Max Doobie
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#69 - 2013-02-02 23:21:50 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
Michael Nezerol wrote:
Oh, I do respect 0-sec players for the risk they take (and the rare minerals, BPO's/BPCs and other tech they bring in :P). ...

I don't think you do. You are only showing that you are jealous over their resources. They have to fight hard to gain these resources and to keep them. It is then easy to say they have blobs. You first need to get enough players to work with you and for the same goals before you can actually have a blob. This requires making sacrifices and I am not sure if you yet understand this. Many have failed in 0.0 and success in 0.0 is hard to earn. Try to respect it.



EL-O-EL....
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#70 - 2013-02-02 23:58:39 UTC
Captain Tardbar wrote:

Yes PvP is a big part of the in game economy but a player is free to chose a path that doesn't really involve PvP if they so chose (station traders can not be involved in PvP even if you war dec them because they never leave the station for example).

Wrong.

Station trading is a very specialized form of PVP, as are miners who run operations designed to mine belts out from other miners(this really happens).

You don't even have to log in to the game to take part in PVP, as these forums have more than their fair share of forum pvp.

The only things you can do in EVE that are not a form of PVP is corp chat and ship spinning. EVERYTHING else is designed to force you, as a player, to compete vs other players, which is the definition of PVP.

EVE is about PVP in every aspect, and this is intentional.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Destru Kaneda
Arzad Police Department
#71 - 2013-02-03 00:07:37 UTC
STEP OUT, STEP OUT OF YOUR ECHO CHAMBER

I like it best when the beats are naked.
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#72 - 2013-02-03 00:09:24 UTC
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Captain Tardbar wrote:

Yes PvP is a big part of the in game economy but a player is free to chose a path that doesn't really involve PvP if they so chose (station traders can not be involved in PvP even if you war dec them because they never leave the station for example).

Wrong.

Station trading is a very specialized form of PVP, as are miners who run operations designed to mine belts out from other miners(this really happens).

You don't even have to log in to the game to take part in PVP, as these forums have more than their fair share of forum pvp.

The only things you can do in EVE that are not a form of PVP is corp chat and ship spinning. EVERYTHING else is designed to force you, as a player, to compete vs other players, which is the definition of PVP.

EVE is about PVP in every aspect, and this is intentional.


Semantics. When many people talk about PvP we usually mean two or more ships actively shooting at each other entailing in the loss of one or more ships by said parties.

Trade and mining is competative, but it doesn't usually involve the destruction of ships.

As an economics professor said, trade is not a zero sum gain or loss. There is neither winners nor losers as a result of trade. Just varying shades of success.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

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Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#73 - 2013-02-03 00:28:27 UTC
Captain Tardbar wrote:
As an economics professor said, trade is not a zero sum gain or loss. There is neither winners nor losers as a result of trade. Just varying shades of success.


Most people think 'irregardless' is a word, but that doesn't make it true.

This Econ prof had obviously never seen market manipulation on the scale we have in EVE, such as the ice interdictions. I would say that some people lost in that trade scenario, including people who never undock.

Also going to point out that if I bought from you, I didn't buy from your competitor who was selling, and so he lost out, while if I had bought from him, you would have lost out.

Additionally, as EVE is not a zero sum economy(new money flows into the game at fairly high rate, which exceeds the amount flowing out of the game) real world economics don't properly apply on the macro scale.

EVERYTHING in EVE is, by design, a form a PVP. Just accept this, and be happy that you understand EVE better than you did before.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#74 - 2013-02-03 01:28:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Tardbar
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Captain Tardbar wrote:
As an economics professor said, trade is not a zero sum gain or loss. There is neither winners nor losers as a result of trade. Just varying shades of success.


Most people think 'irregardless' is a word, but that doesn't make it true.

This Econ prof had obviously never seen market manipulation on the scale we have in EVE, such as the ice interdictions. I would say that some people lost in that trade scenario, including people who never undock.

Also going to point out that if I bought from you, I didn't buy from your competitor who was selling, and so he lost out, while if I had bought from him, you would have lost out.

Additionally, as EVE is not a zero sum economy(new money flows into the game at fairly high rate, which exceeds the amount flowing out of the game) real world economics don't properly apply on the macro scale.

EVERYTHING in EVE is, by design, a form a PVP. Just accept this, and be happy that you understand EVE better than you did before.


No one is forcing you with a gun to your head to buy or sell at certain prices. If somone didn't buy a product from you because the price wasn't low enough and bought from someone else it doesn't mean you lost all your stuff. You still have the product and are rightfully allowed to chose a price that you feel that is worth your time. When you sell at a lower price but at a price still worth your time the trade was worth it and a net gain was satisfied.

No one blows up your products because you failed to sell it. If you PVP in ship to ship combat, you can lose plenty of vaule.

Also in EvE it is quite possible to find mining belts that aren't mined out, BPOs that are sold by NPCs, missions that don't compete with other players.

In fact, once a player has enough resources they don't need to compete with the market anymore and be self sustainable. The can just run missions and recycle all the scrap and ammo the rats dropped and manufacture their own goods.

Some WH corps are pretty much islands to themselves. With the only PvP needed is to kill any intruders that show up in their hole.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

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Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#75 - 2013-02-03 01:37:28 UTC
Captain Tardbar wrote:

No one is forcing you with a gun to your head to buy or sell at certain prices. If somone didn't buy a product from you because the price wasn't low enough and bought from someone else it doesn't mean you lost all your stuff. You still have the product and are rightfully allowed to chose a price that you feel that is worth your time. When you sell at a lower price but at a price still worth your time the trade was worth it and a net gain was statisfied.

No one blows up your products because you failed to sell it. If you PVP in ship to ship combat, you can lose plenty of vaule.


You don't lose your stuff, but you lose value if I drive down the prices. Is this so very hard to understand? I can FORCE you to lose money by controlling the prices of products. If I sell for 0 isk profit, you have x units of worthless items because you literally can't sell them without losing money.

Captain Tardbar wrote:

Also in EvE it is quite possible to find mining belts that aren't mined out, BPOs that are sold by NPCs, missions that don't compete with other players.


Ice interdiction declared a bounty on any mining ship in a gallente ice belt. This prevented any ice from being mined without paying protection money to goons.

Captain Tardbar wrote:

In fact, once a player has enough resources they don't need to compete with the market anymore and be self sustainable. The can just run missions and recycle all the scrap and ammo the rats dropped and manufacture their own goods.


Why would you DO that? That is doing everything in your power to play a MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER game in a single player format. Just get an IRC channel and play some Freelancer.

Captain Tardbar wrote:

Some WH corps are pretty much islands to themselves. With the only PvP needed is to kill any intruders that show up in their hole.


Til someone drops a fleet in their WH, and because they never leave they have no stocks and no defensive measures. Can't run a POS without leaving your WH for fuel, after all. Those are also the favorite WHs of other people to raid and grief, because its full of people who will cry about how they just want to be left alone.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#76 - 2013-02-03 01:54:46 UTC
Michael Nezerol wrote:
I've played plenty of MMOs. But IMHO, the relative disrespectfull attitude towards people who want to take it more 'casual' (relative speaking, since there's no true 'casual' in this game) is amazing and annoying and one of the worst examples that I've met to date.

Yes, I know that PvP is a major theme in this game. But it isn't the only theme. Sure, you can get suicide ganked, even in high sec. You can get robbed, tricked, etc. All part of the gameplay (those who don't accept this, have failed to read the description, guidelines and reviews). No harm done there.


They don't have it at casuals, they have it at bads and 'bears.

Casual <> bad.
Casual <> bear.

Even if sometimes the 3 things overlap into an explosive mix of smelly goo. Cool

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Orlacc
#77 - 2013-02-03 02:09:54 UTC
Statistically, about one-percent of any MMO playerbase post on the forums. So don't diss everyone if a few folks hurt your feewings...

"Measure Twice, Cut Once."
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#78 - 2013-02-03 02:20:03 UTC
Orlacc wrote:
Statistically, about one-percent of any MMO playerbase post on the forums. So don't diss everyone if a few folks hurt your feewings...

But, everyone knows the 1% control everything!

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#79 - 2013-02-03 02:25:02 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:

I don't know, but I've been told, that null sec ratters in carriers can put in the neighborhood of 50 million a tick, or close to 150 million ISK an hour.. in complexes that auto re-spawn as soon as they complete. Deposited directly into their wallets without having to haul, market, blah, blah. With 1 account... so, PLEX in 4 hours compared to 40-50+ hours of high sec mining.

Now, this isn't a call to nerf carrier ratting in null.

I'm simply saying that if he is PLEXing all his accounts high sec mining in 4 days, those are 4 LONG, HARD days of high attentive mining, and then adding that high sec mining is far from the most profitable activity in the game.



First off, that would have to be one badass carrier to get 50mil ticks. Better yet, never believe nullsec ratters about how big there ticks are. It is like asking guys how big their **** are. They always exaggerate.

Secondly, that ratting carrier would count as Plex for 2 accounts. Carriers can't travel through gates, so you need a second account to provide a cyno to move systems, or at the very least act as a scout when jumping to a POS mounted cyno gen.
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#80 - 2013-02-03 02:47:06 UTC
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:
LHA Tarawa wrote:

I don't know, but I've been told, that null sec ratters in carriers can put in the neighborhood of 50 million a tick, or close to 150 million ISK an hour.. in complexes that auto re-spawn as soon as they complete. Deposited directly into their wallets without having to haul, market, blah, blah. With 1 account... so, PLEX in 4 hours compared to 40-50+ hours of high sec mining.

Now, this isn't a call to nerf carrier ratting in null.

I'm simply saying that if he is PLEXing all his accounts high sec mining in 4 days, those are 4 LONG, HARD days of high attentive mining, and then adding that high sec mining is far from the most profitable activity in the game.



First off, that would have to be one badass carrier to get 50mil ticks. Better yet, never believe nullsec ratters about how big there ticks are. It is like asking guys how big their **** are. They always exaggerate.

Secondly, that ratting carrier would count as Plex for 2 accounts. Carriers can't travel through gates, so you need a second account to provide a cyno to move systems, or at the very least act as a scout when jumping to a POS mounted cyno gen.

Or a friend you can trust....

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.