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I need a history lesson from the vets
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Karn Dulake
Doomheim
#21 - 2011-10-25 14:58:18 UTC
Mirime Nolwe wrote:
Well, there we go again with Level 4 nerf threads. In fact, this was a bit forgotten for quite some time now.

If i remember correctly, some time ago (before incarage) CCP said they intended to remove lvl 4 from High Sec, might be wrong..



This has got nothing to do with nerfing level 4 missions in highsec. I have grown insanely fat and rich from level 4 missions so i am not talking about nerfing them.

Im talking about the feel for the game and the differences in times gone by
I dont normally troll, but when i do i do it on General Discussion.
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#22 - 2011-10-25 15:06:15 UTC
Karn Dulake wrote:
(please refrain from "i remember when this goddam game was alive kid". Actually do if you want)
I heard that missions were introduced in an update and were not part of the original EVE game. Before this you had to belt rat or mine (in a goddam carpal tunnel battleship) or do other things i have not thought of if you wanted to make isk in highsec.

It was a time when Battleships could cost 180 million isk and buying a Battleship BPO required a consortium of people to do it instead of today where everyone and their mother has one.


True and people used to buy battleship bpos and recoup the investment selling copies. One of the first targets I made war on in Eve (taggart transdimensional) was effectively an apocalypse pyramid selling scheme.

Quote:
I heard a story about a 300 million isk scam that nearly wiped out a dozen people when today an elite missioner could make that in a day


Well one of my first directors in JF almost wiped out our trading budget by accidently sending 25m isk to an eve dominatrix from the "pain syndicate"...

Quote:
Next questions

1. In your opinion did level 4 missions remove the need for people do leave highsec to make isk

2. Due to the easy nature of level 4 missions are they just a more complicated form of mining (think about it people, eh eh)

3. CCP was there a rise in the playerbase when level 4 missions were introduced.



1. Yes I think so.
2. Pretty much mining with lasers
3. There was a steady rise throughout that period for a lot of reasons - just look at the patchnotes for something like Exodus and you will see huge improvements across the entire game. Hence its difficult to lay increases against specific features.

I was going to list the isk per hour ratio of elite pvper vs everthing else in the game but then there would be much faggotry in the angry replies in this thread

Quote:

Next section (needs vets opinions on this one)
Do you think that SOV and level 4s have combined to keep a lot of people in highsec.

Ie If there was no real earnings to be made in highsec and i heard of the mythical nullsec where you could find BS with over a million bounties on them then i would be planning to get out there for a long extended trip to up my wallet. But now that most of Nullsec is claimed and nothing is unknown its not worth going.


Sov has been pretty terrible and has been used and abused by 0.0 powers since introduction. I've long believed it makes the game too easy for large powers to act as absentee landlords.

Quote:
Also and this is huge, massive i mean really really big. Nullsec is unknown. there should be no data coming out of there that players are not providing for themselves. If i wanted to go to a region and carebear for a while then people should have to come in and find me doing it. not look ingame at the stats page and work it out from there or look at dotlan. This part of the game makes absolutely no sense, none.


Yep - the sensible proposal is no local chat in 0.0 and far more limited map statistics. There has always been a problem in 0.0 with perfect intel information that you don't have to work for.

The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom
Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
#23 - 2011-10-25 15:21:00 UTC
Karn Dulake wrote:
2. Due to the easy nature of level 4 missions are they just a more complicated form of mining (think about it people, eh eh)

Less complicated in principle.
If you simply warp in, kill rats then turn in the mission you get the ISK delivered straight to your wallet whereas even in the most basic form of mining you have to deal with the market to get paid.
Of course in missions you have Blitzing, the question of whether it's profitable to salvage...etc. but then in Mining it's which ores to mine, whether your skills make it better to refine or sell the raw ore and so forth.

Renan Ruivo wrote:
kratos candre wrote:
* For missions * I remember when Lvl 4's use to be hard to do. Like angel or gruista extav. where damn near impossible to do solo.


But then people managed to document every behaviour and make guides for every single missions.

Angel Extravaganza IS impossible to do solo if you don't know what the hell you are doing.

The difference is that Angel Extra is now a multi-spawn mission, it used to have the same rats (more or less) but all of them were spawned in immediately in groups... and in the first room all of those groups were (at one point) insta-agro.
The damage that room could cause was intense - more than the current bonus room if for no other reason than everything was close enough to do full (or nearly full) damage immediately.

A corp I used to work quite closely with used to warp a T2, full tank Domi in to get agro and his job was to kill the Vipers and Webifiers (all of them scramed then). As soon as he had agro from everything he needed to call in support (which was originally a 6 shield transfer Scorp) because otherwise he'd pop before he could kill all the tacklers...
Angel Extra used to be a lot harder than it is now.
yumike
Doomheim
#24 - 2011-10-25 15:24:47 UTC
Karn Dulake wrote:


1. In your opinion did level 4 missions remove the need for people do leave highsec to make isk

2. Due to the easy nature of level 4 missions are they just a more complicated form of mining (think about it people, eh eh)

3. CCP was there a rise in the playerbase when level 4 missions were introduced.


1.) There was no missions, Then there was level 1-3, then 4's were added, then fives were added.
I recall when 3's were the king of the crop, and they added fours while I was away (Fried my computer{Was my first time overclocking}) and I was out for several months before returning.

2.) The ease of fours to this day are still differing. There's many people who still need help to complete them, yes to me they are little more then different substances to mine and I use varying ammo types but for what I imagine to be the vast majority of the playerbase there is a great difference - so no.

3.) Because of level 4 missions? I doubt it. But EVE has been steadily growing since it's incarnation, I still recall 4k people being online and going "damn, whys everyone on for. Oh its the weekend dur" So of course EVE has grown, And maybe not necessarily because of level 4's specifically but possibly for the doors that level 4s have opened (A larger variety of ships, choices, challenge & reason to fleet up at times.)
Zixie Draco
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#25 - 2011-10-25 15:40:52 UTC
Karn Dulake wrote:


Also and this is huge, massive i mean really really big. Nullsec is unknown. there should be no data coming out of there that players are not providing for themselves. If i wanted to go to a region and carebear for a while then people should have to come in and find me doing it. not look ingame at the stats page and work it out from there or look at dotlan. This part of the game makes absolutely no sense, none.

If i went to Alpha Centuri to play god the only time Earthlings should know about it is four years later when the star went Nova or when i return to Earth with my army of robot monkeys. NASA should not be able to look on dotlan to see exactly what i am doing. The only way they should know is when they send a ragtag group of 80s action heroes up there to find out what i am doing.


They have long chains of ponies that fly the information back and forth...duh.

Would you like a kitten?

David Grogan
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2011-10-25 16:19:05 UTC
Xoria Krint wrote:


Give us some new ships, new pirate methods..... Give us a damn PvP expansion and force the carebears out of high-sec.


all that would do is force carebears out of eve online completely.... less subs = less staff = less eve online development.

pirates have more than enough ways to kill other player.... that fact you are whining about not getting easier kills suggest piracy may not be the career for you.

Everytime you buy something that says "made in china" you are helping the rising unemployment in your own country unless you are from china, Buy locally produced goods and help create more jobs.
Igualmentedos
Perkone
Caldari State
#27 - 2011-10-25 16:21:45 UTC
Xoria Krint wrote:
Karn Dulake wrote:

1. In your opinion did level 4 missions remove the need for people do leave highsec to make isk

Yes. Eve should be Risk vs Reward. Level IV missions in high-sec does not have enough risk but a nice reward. It makes no sense and all level IV agents should be moved to lowsec/0.0.

Karn Dulake wrote:

2. Due to the easy nature of level 4 missions are they just a more complicated form of mining (think about it people, eh eh)

Except that you can't mine Bistot in high-sec.

Oh.. While i'm at it: Remove local as well, at least in low-sec/0.0.

The carebears have reformed Eve-Online to the worse in many years now. Slowly but steady it is being dumbed down by all the whining and crying. You can quote me on that. All the damn popups and warnings? Why? Let people learn by mistakes. Tutorial? Not needed. Local? Not needed.

Give us some new ships, new pirate methods..... Give us a damn PvP expansion and force the carebears out of high-sec.


They will just quit. I don't get the mentality behind, "play like I do!"
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#28 - 2011-10-25 16:30:06 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Killgor wrote:
Yea, back in the day, corps collectively had to buy BPO's and for awhile it was rare to have more than one. I love this game with all the ups and downs but one of the biggest downfalls has been the devaluation of the isk. The ability to buy plex with cash and sell it in game for isk has really threw off the economics of the game. You can't call yourself a player driven economy when non ingame money can be used to get ingame money.


You can when the money comes from another player.


Player?

Is that what we call someone who's entire participation in the game is logging in 30 bots once a day?

Mr Epeen Cool
Karn Dulake
Doomheim
#29 - 2011-10-25 16:37:40 UTC
Please keep on track people this has been a great thread so far.

its not a bashing thread 
I dont normally troll, but when i do i do it on General Discussion.
Dinatra
Offshore Holdings
#30 - 2011-10-25 16:44:09 UTC
You can pretty much look at the oldest records on the old forums to get a picture of what was going on:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=channel&channelID=3519&page=5188

There are some posts there where people are looking for investors in Battleship BPOs :)
nahtoh
Vega Farscape
#31 - 2011-10-25 17:04:45 UTC
I thought it was none at start, then 1-2s then lvl 3s, 4s and finaly 5s.

I still remeber completing the Mordus headhunters mission in a moa then finding out that it had just changed and people were losing ravens doing it Big smile
Skunk Gracklaw
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#32 - 2011-10-25 17:07:57 UTC
Igualmentedos wrote:
They will just quit.

Ok.
Avon
#33 - 2011-10-25 17:13:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Avon
Level 4 missions, whilst originally intended for groups of players, were not a bad concept; however, in practice they caused profound issues with the relationship between risk and reward.

Let me explain my reasoning.

Null-sec space used to be a goldmine for people willing to accept the increased danger because it was effectively the only source of rare minerals. The potential profit resulted in open conflict over those scare resources.

The profit from those resources came from selling the minerals to empire space based industrialists who required them for production but were not interested in fighting to get them.

In order for this relationship to work it had to be possible to "print" ISK in the realtive safety of Empire space and the minerals people fought over had to remain rare.

Whilst level 4 missions were great at printing ISK, unfortunately they were equally great at producing the rare minerals that the ISK should have been purchasing from null-sec.

The flow of ISK choked and ever since CCP have been trying to band-aid this fundamental flaw. The direct ISK rewards of 0.0 have increase to compensate, further negating the need for the ISK to flow from empire to 0.0.

Moon-goo is the current "rare mineral" and thus conflict generator, but it lacks the ease of access that mining used to have. This has increased the entry level requirements for making ISK from null-sec whilst at the same time moving the reward to something hard to quantify by the "grunts" involved.
Null-sec has lost the "wild west" feeling it used to have, replaced by a more organised but less personal "war machine".

The bottom line is that the symbiotic relationship between High-sec and Null-sec was lost and level 4 missions had no small part to play in it.
Karn Dulake
Doomheim
#34 - 2011-10-25 17:25:16 UTC
Avon wrote:
Level 4 missions, whilst originally intended for groups of players, were not a bad concept; however, in practice they caused profound issues with the relationship between risk and reward.

Let me explain my reasoning.

Null-sec space used to be a goldmine for people willing to accept the increased danger because it was effectively the only source of rare minerals. The potential profit resulted in open conflict over those scare resources.

The profit from those resources came from selling the minerals to empire space based industrialists who required them for production but were not interested in fighting to get them.

In order for this relationship to work it had to be possible to "print" ISK in the realtive safety of Empire space and the minerals people fought over had to remain rare.

Whilst level 4 missions were great at printing ISK, unfortunately they were equally great at producing the rare minerals that the ISK should have been purchasing from null-sec.

The flow of ISK choked and ever since CCP have been trying to band-aid this fundamental flaw. The direct ISK rewards of 0.0 have increase to compensate, further negating the need for the ISK to flow from empire to 0.0.

Moon-goo is the current "rare mineral" and thus conflict generator, but it lacks the ease of access that mining used to have. This has increased the entry level requirements for making ISK from null-sec whilst at the same time moving the reward to something hard to quantify by the "grunts" involved.
Null-sec has lost the "wild west" feeling it used to have, replaced by a more organised but less personal "war machine".

The bottom line is that the symbiotic relationship between High-sec and Null-sec was lost and level 4 missions had no small part to play in it.



If i could like this post twice i would. really good well constructed argument 
I dont normally troll, but when i do i do it on General Discussion.
Skunk Gracklaw
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#35 - 2011-10-25 17:27:47 UTC
Avon wrote:
Level 4 missions, whilst originally intended for groups of players, were not a bad concept; however, in practice they caused profound issues with the relationship between risk and reward.

Let me explain my reasoning.

Null-sec space used to be a goldmine for people willing to accept the increased danger because it was effectively the only source of rare minerals. The potential profit resulted in open conflict over those scare resources.

The profit from those resources came from selling the minerals to empire space based industrialists who required them for production but were not interested in fighting to get them.

In order for this relationship to work it had to be possible to "print" ISK in the realtive safety of Empire space and the minerals people fought over had to remain rare.

Whilst level 4 missions were great at printing ISK, unfortunately they were equally great at producing the rare minerals that the ISK should have been purchasing from null-sec.

The flow of ISK choked and ever since CCP have been trying to band-aid this fundamental flaw. The direct ISK rewards of 0.0 have increase to compensate, further negating the need for the ISK to flow from empire to 0.0.

Moon-goo is the current "rare mineral" and thus conflict generator, but it lacks the ease of access that mining used to have. This has increased the entry level requirements for making ISK from null-sec whilst at the same time moving the reward to something hard to quantify by the "grunts" involved.
Null-sec has lost the "wild west" feeling it used to have, replaced by a more organised but less personal "war machine".

The bottom line is that the symbiotic relationship between High-sec and Null-sec was lost and level 4 missions had no small part to play in it.

Mark this day on the calender...Avon actually made a good post
Lord Ryan
True Xero
#36 - 2011-10-25 17:40:23 UTC
Renan Ruivo wrote:
kratos candre wrote:
* For missions * I remember when Lvl 4's use to be hard to do. Like angel or gruista extav. where damn near impossible to do solo.


But then people managed to document every behaviour and make guides for every single missions.

Angel Extravaganza IS impossible to do solo if you don't know what the hell you are doing.



My first year, I found buzz kill impossible. AE just takes forever. I haven't seen Buzzkill or Buzz kill in years was it removed?

Do not assume anything above this line was typed by me. Nerf the Truth, it's inconvenient.
Karn Dulake
Doomheim
#37 - 2011-10-25 17:43:27 UTC
Lord Ryan wrote:
Renan Ruivo wrote:
kratos candre wrote:
* For missions * I remember when Lvl 4's use to be hard to do. Like angel or gruista extav. where damn near impossible to do solo.


But then people managed to document every behaviour and make guides for every single missions.

Angel Extravaganza IS impossible to do solo if you don't know what the hell you are doing.



My first year, I found buzz kill impossible. AE just takes forever. I haven't seen Buzzkill or Buzz kill in years was it removed?



No it still exists i did it a few days ago
I dont normally troll, but when i do i do it on General Discussion.
Lord Ryan
True Xero
#38 - 2011-10-25 18:08:19 UTC
Karn Dulake wrote:
Lord Ryan wrote:
Renan Ruivo wrote:
kratos candre wrote:
* For missions * I remember when Lvl 4's use to be hard to do. Like angel or gruista extav. where damn near impossible to do solo.


But then people managed to document every behaviour and make guides for every single missions.

Angel Extravaganza IS impossible to do solo if you don't know what the hell you are doing.



My first year, I found buzz kill impossible. AE just takes forever. I haven't seen Buzzkill or Buzz kill in years was it removed?



No it still exists i did it a few days ago



Try it in a low skill hyperion with rails! 200 frickin frigs! Did you do it Gallente space? Pretty sure I haven't seen it since I left gall space.

Do not assume anything above this line was typed by me. Nerf the Truth, it's inconvenient.
Shadow Lord77
Shadow Industries I
#39 - 2011-10-25 18:29:08 UTC
Avon wrote:
Level 4 missions, whilst originally intended for groups of players, were not a bad concept; however, in practice they caused profound issues with the relationship between risk and reward.

Let me explain my reasoning.

Null-sec space used to be a goldmine for people willing to accept the increased danger because it was effectively the only source of rare minerals. The potential profit resulted in open conflict over those scare resources.

The profit from those resources came from selling the minerals to empire space based industrialists who required them for production but were not interested in fighting to get them.

In order for this relationship to work it had to be possible to "print" ISK in the realtive safety of Empire space and the minerals people fought over had to remain rare.

Whilst level 4 missions were great at printing ISK, unfortunately they were equally great at producing the rare minerals that the ISK should have been purchasing from null-sec.

The flow of ISK choked and ever since CCP have been trying to band-aid this fundamental flaw. The direct ISK rewards of 0.0 have increase to compensate, further negating the need for the ISK to flow from empire to 0.0.

Moon-goo is the current "rare mineral" and thus conflict generator, but it lacks the ease of access that mining used to have. This has increased the entry level requirements for making ISK from null-sec whilst at the same time moving the reward to something hard to quantify by the "grunts" involved.
Null-sec has lost the "wild west" feeling it used to have, replaced by a more organised but less personal "war machine".

The bottom line is that the symbiotic relationship between High-sec and Null-sec was lost and level 4 missions had no small part to play in it.


I really like this post.
Barbara Nichole
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#40 - 2011-10-25 19:19:20 UTC
Quote:
1. In your opinion did level 4 missions remove the need for people do leave highsec to make isk

2. Due to the easy nature of level 4 missions are they just a more complicated form of mining (think about it people, eh eh)


no people don't leave high sec for many and various reasons. back in the dark ages gate camps were even more brutal than today.. warping into a gate camp many times you didn't last long enough to type "hi guys" before you disapeared in a puff of dust. There was no warp to zero either. so a gate camp locked a gate tight.

Money making by it's nature is repetitive .. or it wouldn't be popular. really the thing any mission has in common with mining is there are a limited number of encounters.. your going to see them over and over.

  - remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not  "afk" cloaking -

[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]
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