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Clone prices
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Pesadel0
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2013-02-01 09:40:07 UTC
Could you reduce de costs , like you did 3 years ago, because i like to fly small ships.
ITTigerClawIK
Galactic Rangers
#2 - 2013-02-01 10:00:40 UTC
i would also like to fly small ships again without forking 30 mill out for a cheap rifter that happens to get caught in a bubble , i know there was some talk about the adjustment of clone costs at some point but never got an update.
Turelus
Utassi Security
#3 - 2013-02-01 10:35:37 UTC
Agreed, please don't punish older players who want to PVP in NullSec.

Maybe add a upgrade to the systems/outposts that lowers the price of clones? FW has that, can Sov have it as well?

Turelus CEO Utassi Security
Sphit Ker
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#4 - 2013-02-01 11:09:16 UTC
Clone grade upgrades needs to go out the door entirely. There's exactly zero gameplay benefits from having to remember to upgrade the silly little clone every time under penalty of risk losing skill points, which is nothing else but a cheap and underhanded mean to provide a way for things to go very wrong.

It knows what you think.
Pesadel0
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2013-02-03 01:41:46 UTC
Sphit Ker wrote:
Clone grade upgrades needs to go out the door entirely. There's exactly zero gameplay benefits from having to remember to upgrade the silly little clone every time under penalty of risk losing skill points, which is nothing else but a cheap and underhanded mean to provide a way for things to go very wrong.


Hum well never though of that but maybe that is a even better ideia.
Xqpvqsvs Qr'atyuqink
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2013-02-03 09:49:31 UTC
Sphit Ker wrote:
Clone grade upgrades needs to go out the door entirely. There's exactly zero gameplay benefits from having to remember to upgrade the silly little clone every time under penalty of risk losing skill points, which is nothing else but a cheap and underhanded mean to provide a way for things to go very wrong.


This
Mord Raven
Phrike Squadron
#7 - 2013-02-08 15:09:18 UTC
Sphit Ker wrote:
Clone grade upgrades needs to go out the door entirely. There's exactly zero gameplay benefits from having to remember to upgrade the silly little clone every time under penalty of risk losing skill points, which is nothing else but a cheap and underhanded mean to provide a way for things to go very wrong.


I completely agree. Either fix it so that the clone upgrades automatically (I understand that it is an isk sink), or completely remove the feature (because on the other hand, why punish veteran pilots?). Skill loss is extremely harsh for such a trivial thing as to remember to upgrade the clone or not, which is easily forgotten in the heat of a battle or for a pilot that doesn't get podded that much. The mechanic makes absolutely no sense to me other than the occasional punishment of absentminded pilots. Which just feels.. wrong.
Hakan MacTrew
Konrakas Forged
Solyaris Chtonium
#8 - 2013-02-08 15:37:19 UTC
Mord Raven wrote:
Sphit Ker wrote:
Clone grade upgrades needs to go out the door entirely. There's exactly zero gameplay benefits from having to remember to upgrade the silly little clone every time under penalty of risk losing skill points, which is nothing else but a cheap and underhanded mean to provide a way for things to go very wrong.


I completely agree. Either fix it so that the clone upgrades automatically (I understand that it is an isk sink), or completely remove the feature (because on the other hand, why punish veteran pilots?). Skill loss is extremely harsh for such a trivial thing as to remember to upgrade the clone or not, which is easily forgotten in the heat of a battle or for a pilot that doesn't get podded that much. The mechanic makes absolutely no sense to me other than the occasional punishment of absentminded pilots. Which just feels.. wrong.

Clone costs are an essential isk sink. Removing them would be a bad idea.

A fully automated upgrade process would also be bad, removing choice. An option to automatically upgrade after clone death would be good though. I have forgotten to upgrade a few times and I have lost a week's training for it before now.

Friends
Youkai Tengu
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#9 - 2013-02-09 14:03:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Youkai Tengu
Grabbing this from the summer skill change topic:
Marlona Sky wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Clone costs in their current form are not something we as a design department are happy with. Beyond that we can't make commitments on the issue at this time.


Please for the love of god just remove clone upgrade costs. I wrote an article about how bad they are. Ignore the insurance change part as I was just using it as an example of where to move the ISK sink to (bad example I know), but just focus on the rest.

CLONE UPGRADE BILLS: A PAINFUL THROWBACK

Did you read it?


And I completely agree. I also think there shouldn't be clone upgrades at all. Why? Because the prices can be relatively high. If you're an active PvP'er, you of course increase the chance of getting podded, thus having to spend more on clone upgrading. That takes focus away from PvP'ing. What if you even mess up a bit and forget upgrading clone before getting podded again, or forget upgrading to match your newly earned SPs? Sure it's your fault, but I bet some people would quit the game. Clone upgrade prices being as high as they are, just increases the chance of not having an up to date clone.
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2013-02-09 16:33:59 UTC
The isk sink has to come from somewhere. If they remove insurance isk faucet, removing clone cost may work. Otherwise, no.

Alternately, give an option for corps to automatically pay member cloning cost.
Yolo
Unknown Nation
#11 - 2013-02-09 20:43:18 UTC
I would be willing to pay much more for the upgrade of clones, if the upgrade was permanent.
eg; you get more skills, then you pay to upgrade your cloning but its permanent and you can die several times without losing skillpoints.

then we are free to pvp as we wish, and CCP still gets to drain atleast some Isk from the system.

- since 2003, bitches
Sol Weinstein
Lunatic Warfare Federation
#12 - 2013-02-09 21:18:55 UTC
Risk vs. Reward

Use high SP character with high(er) clone cost = Risk.
Performing better in combat due to high(er) SP character = Reward.

Perfectly balanced.

Thank you.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#13 - 2013-02-09 21:48:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Sol Weinstein wrote:
Risk vs. Reward

Use high SP character with high(er) clone cost = Risk.
Performing better in combat due to high(er) SP character = Reward.

Perfectly balanced.

Thank you.
Well as much as I'd like to agree, no actually.

Interceptor Pilot with a total of 20 million SP, with great skills for flying a Crusader. Using around 13 million SP, for that ship. Clone grade Nu which keeps 25,600,000 SP. Cost 1,980,000.

Older interceptor pilot, with the exact same skill set to fly the Crusader, but with 156 million SP.
Clone Grade Phi which keeps 203,000,000 SP. Cost 65 million.

Now I personally am not bothered by this cost. But higher SP, does not mean better performance. So no, not perfectly balanced.
I can see why this would preclude the use of smaller ships with higher SP.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Sol Weinstein
Lunatic Warfare Federation
#14 - 2013-02-09 22:00:44 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Sol Weinstein wrote:
Risk vs. Reward

Use high SP character with high(er) clone cost = Risk.
Performing better in combat due to high(er) SP character = Reward.

Perfectly balanced.

Thank you.
Well as much as I'd like to agree, no actually.

Interceptor Pilot with a total of 20 million SP, with great skills for flying a Crusader. Using around 13 million SP, for that ship. Clone grade Nu which keeps 25,600,000 SP. Cost 1,980,000.

Older interceptor pilot, with the exact same skill set to fly the Crusader, but with 156 million SP.
Clone Grade Phi which keeps 203,000,000 SP. Cost 65 million.

Now I personally am not bothered by this cost. But higher SP, does not mean better performance. So no, not perfectly balanced.
I can see why this would preclude the use of smaller ships with higher SP.


You are comparing specific skills trained to one another. Yes, that means the same performance in the same exact ship setup and fitting.

However, the player with a higher skill point value has skills in other things. Perhaps they have Cybernetics lvl 5 and are using some very pricey implants to outpace you just enough. Did you calculate the extra SP for that? And, I will admit that having one extra skill trained to lvl 5 isn't really impacting clone costs.

But, the person who fast-tracked the skills to your specs and then stopped training that character to swap skill training for another character made a Choice™. Just like the player who made a different Choice™ and decided he would also want to run a PRC and an Alliance on the same character. And also made a Choice™ that they would want to erect and fully manage a POS on the same character. And also made the Choice™ they would want to add to their combat skills through the Leadership aspect of the skill tree. Should I keep giving examples of Choices™ ?

One player Chose™ to make a perfectly skilled interceptor pilot based on one race's ship and weapon sets and then move along to perform other tasks on different characters.
Another player Chose™ to skill their one character up for different aspects of the game.

So, you are telling me that these two players should not have different results from different Choices™?

Thank you.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#15 - 2013-02-09 22:07:42 UTC
Sol Weinstein wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Sol Weinstein wrote:
Risk vs. Reward

Use high SP character with high(er) clone cost = Risk.
Performing better in combat due to high(er) SP character = Reward.

Perfectly balanced.

Thank you.
Well as much as I'd like to agree, no actually.

Interceptor Pilot with a total of 20 million SP, with great skills for flying a Crusader. Using around 13 million SP, for that ship. Clone grade Nu which keeps 25,600,000 SP. Cost 1,980,000.

Older interceptor pilot, with the exact same skill set to fly the Crusader, but with 156 million SP.
Clone Grade Phi which keeps 203,000,000 SP. Cost 65 million.

Now I personally am not bothered by this cost. But higher SP, does not mean better performance. So no, not perfectly balanced.
I can see why this would preclude the use of smaller ships with higher SP.


You are comparing specific skills trained to one another. Yes, that means the same performance in the same exact ship setup and fitting.

However, the player with a higher skill point value has skills in other things. Perhaps they have Cybernetics lvl 5 and are using some very pricey implants to outpace you just enough. Did you calculate the extra SP for that? And, I will admit that having one extra skill trained to lvl 5 isn't really impacting clone costs.

But, the person who fast-tracked the skills to your specs and then stopped training that character to swap skill training for another character made a Choice™. Just like the player who made a different Choice™ and decided he would also want to run a PRC and an Alliance on the same character. And also made a Choice™ that they would want to erect and fully manage a POS on the same character. And also made the Choice™ they would want to add to their combat skills through the Leadership aspect of the skill tree. Should I keep giving examples of Choices™ ?

One player Chose™ to make a perfectly skilled interceptor pilot based on one race's ship and weapon sets and then move along to perform other tasks on different characters.
Another player Chose™ to skill their one character up for different aspects of the game.

So, you are telling me that these two players should not have different results from different Choices™?

Thank you.
No I'm telling you that higher SP, doesn't equate to higher performance. Hence why the skill system in Eve is so new player friendly.

The point people have with clone costs is that the higher your SP goes, the less attractive small ships become. I'm now at the point where my clone is more expensive than that small ship plus fittings.

Like I said, cost doesn't bother me personally. But a mechanic that punishes one aspect of PvP, simply because of your longevity in the game, cannot be viewed as a good one.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Sol Weinstein
Lunatic Warfare Federation
#16 - 2013-02-09 22:22:02 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Sol Weinstein wrote:


So, you are telling me that these two players should not have different results from different Choices™?



No.


Okay. then we agree.

Mag's wrote:

The point people have with clone costs is that the higher your SP goes, the less attractive small ships become. I'm now at the point where my clone is more expensive than that small ship plus fittings.

Like I said, cost doesn't bother me personally. But a mechanic that punishes one aspect of PvP, simply because of your longevity in the game, cannot be viewed as a good one.


I have many skillpoints. Yes, I find frigates to be awesome fun.

I also realize this before I choose my ship and undock to be engaged in ship-to-ship PVP.

Thank you.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#17 - 2013-02-09 22:35:43 UTC
Sol Weinstein wrote:
Okay. then we agree.
No.

Sol Weinstein wrote:
I have many skillpoints. Yes, I find frigates to be awesome fun.

I also realize this before I choose my ship and undock to be engaged in ship-to-ship PVP.

Thank you.

Whether you realise this or not, is not the point and irrelevant to the discussion. The point is higher SP does not equate to better performance and longevity shouldn't have the side effect, of making small ship PvP unattractive due to cost.

When the price of your clone, is more than buying and setting up four Interceptors there is something wrong with the balance in that mechanic. It's not helping drive PvP, but rather having the opposite affect.

CCP are aware of this and already agree. It's now simply a matter of time, when we'll see a change.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Sol Weinstein
Lunatic Warfare Federation
#18 - 2013-02-09 22:41:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Sol Weinstein
Mag's wrote:
Sol Weinstein wrote:
Okay. then we agree.
No.

Sol Weinstein wrote:
I have many skillpoints. Yes, I find frigates to be awesome fun.

I also realize this before I choose my ship and undock to be engaged in ship-to-ship PVP.

Thank you.

Whether you realise this or not, is not the point and irrelevant to the discussion. The point is higher SP does not equate to better performance and longevity shouldn't have the side effect, of making small ship PvP unattractive due to cost.

When the price of your clone, is more than buying and setting up four Interceptors there is something wrong with the balance in that mechanic. It's not helping drive PvP, but rather having the opposite affect.

CCP are aware of this and already agree. It's now simply a matter of time, when we'll see a change.



What is the point? You don't want to risk your high SP character in a ship made of paper and sticks? Yeah. We get it.

Also, I would suggest not speaking for other people or entities. Your speculation of what CCP agrees with is unimportant. Or, if they do agree, then why this thread?

Or maybe you want interceptors to cost more? I'm completely lost in what you really want. Maybe think about it a bit more and get back to us.

Thank you.

========

Another Choice™ you have is to train that streamlined alt to better fit in with YOUR needs of cheaper cost of death.

I will also point out that if you Chose™ to use your alts for different purposes and have no more slots available, then that is the Consequence™ for Choosing™ to perform different tasks with different characters.

Thank you.
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#19 - 2013-02-09 22:57:01 UTC
The gameplay added by clones upgrade is to add "cost" to the death penalities. What makes EVE harsh as we like is not simply the open PVP but the risks involving and the costs.

Reducing clones upgrades reduce the harshness.

If lowered for medical clones then should be balaanced properly by increased implants costs and jump clones costs.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#20 - 2013-02-09 23:00:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Sol Weinstein wrote:
What is the point? You don't want to risk your high SP character in a ship made of paper and sticks? Yeah. We get it.
Strawman.

Sol Weinstein wrote:
Also, I would suggest not speaking for other people or entities. Your speculation of what CCP agrees with is unimportant. Or, if they do agree, then why this thread?
I don't speculate, I say what I read in regards to CCP. They are not happy with clone costs in their current form.

As far as why this thread exists or not, maybe you should ask the OP. Maybe they, like you, didn't know what CCP had said on the subject. Blink

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
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