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One of Eve's real problems-- Devaluation of the isk

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Killgor
Rocks and Roll Inc
#1 - 2011-10-25 14:46:04 UTC
The devaluation of the isk IMO is what is hurting the game currently, mainly/solely driven by the introduction of Plex. The ability to spend cold hard cash and receive plex, which in turn can be sold in game for isk has really really devalued its worth. So, instead of having to work together towards a common goal you can go out and buy 10-20 Plexes and just buy what you need. Items that used to take weeks or months to save up for and work hard for now can simply be purchased. It takes the need away from teamwork and allows people to be more solo or less involved with the game itself. And over time, this can cause a certain amount of isolationism and then boredom sets in. Acquiring wealth in Eve used to take a long time but now it can simply be purchased with out of game money and converted.
I think that is what is driving the older players away from the game. The game has lost some of its "pure" allure. You used to have to work very hard to get what you need but now if you have a good bankroll you can simply just buy your way to wealth or fame.
I still love the game but just a bit less and have a different view. I think if you could go back in time to say 2004-2005 and take a look at now most people would be disappointed in how the economy works.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#2 - 2011-10-25 14:48:39 UTC
Killgor wrote:
The ability to spend cold hard cash and receive plex, which in turn can be sold in game for isk has really really devalued its worth.
Now, you do understand that it's the amount of ISK that devalues the ISK in that case, not the PLEX?
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#3 - 2011-10-25 14:50:35 UTC
PLEX don't add any ISK to the game. They don't cause any "devaluation". The PLEX transaction is economically identical to having a second account you use for making ISK.

The devaluation of ISK was caused largely by the addition of several vast ISK fountains - over a year of unrestricted Sanctums, ratting, level 4 missions, pre-nerf insurance - which were left to gush for years on end.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Killgor
Rocks and Roll Inc
#4 - 2011-10-25 14:52:04 UTC
Well, nothing done in game creates plex. It's not built or found. It's only here because someone paid cash for it on the Eve website and then added to someone's account. This creates more isk hence the issue. If you didn't have the ability to buy plex then less isk in game.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#5 - 2011-10-25 14:53:25 UTC
Killgor wrote:
Well, nothing done in game creates plex. It's not built or found. It's only here because someone paid cash for it on the Eve website and then added to someone's account. This creates more isk hence the issue. If you didn't have the ability to buy plex then less isk in game.
No, PLEX do not create ISK.
CCP Phantom
C C P
C C P Alliance
#6 - 2011-10-25 14:54:39 UTC
Moved from General Discussions.

CCP Phantom - Senior Community Developer
Adunh Slavy
#7 - 2011-10-25 14:56:31 UTC
You have a point, though in my opinion it is a bit mis-worded. Certainly the ease of buying ISK with PLEX can cheapen the experience. It allows someone to by-pass the hard work they would other wise have to do. Doing this is of course optional and no one has to do it. In my view if they do they are only cheating them selves.

Use of PLEX however does not devalue ISK quite so directly as you've presented it. One could argue that the velocity of ISK is increased, and that may have some inflationary impacts, though that is rather different from your main point I suspect.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
Killgor
Rocks and Roll Inc
#8 - 2011-10-25 14:56:41 UTC
Well, I guess its more of a redistribution of wealth actually. I still think it has a huge negative aspect on the game.
MeestaPenni
Mercantile and Stuff
#9 - 2011-10-25 14:56:44 UTC  |  Edited by: MeestaPenni
Tippia wrote:
Killgor wrote:
The ability to spend cold hard cash and receive plex, which in turn can be sold in game for isk has really really devalued its worth.
Now, you do understand that it's the amount of ISK that devalues the ISK in that case, not the PLEX?


No. The PLEX does in fact devalue ISK. Where it used to take several weeks, months, or a lucky officer spawn to accumulate a cool billion in ISK...now it can be done in as little time as it takes me to buy a couple of GTCs and convert.

The time value this game used to have doesn't mean jackshit anymore.

I am not Prencleeve Grothsmore.
Shirah Yuri
Tonic Empire
#10 - 2011-10-25 14:57:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Shirah Yuri
The value of ISK is basically determined by the amount of wares available on the market and the amount of isk available for market transactions. PLEX themselves don't really add anything to the market or take anything form it per se. One player gets ISK for it, another player pays with the ISK he made somehow... a zero sum game.

However, there might be a SMALL effect since PLEX is sold by players who want ISK to use on the market. The buyers usually have plenty of ISK and would likely not use them to buy anything on the market anytime soon. So, it might be argued that PLEX in fact makes ISK available on the market that would be rotting on some over-filled account otherwise.

However, I think that other things contribute a good bit more to devaluation like the good payouts found in incursions which are ISK fountains, but without (usually) supplying a similar level of wares in loot (or is anybody looting incursions, really?). Hence, it's a sizeable increase in ISK without the proper representation in available wares. The ISK / wares coefficient rises and so do prices...

Solution: introduce more isk sinks or cut down on the existing faucets (maybe balancing npc bounties ever so slightly every now and then to keep prices constant).
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#11 - 2011-10-25 14:57:50 UTC
MeestaPenni wrote:
No. The PLEX does in fact devalue ISK. Where it used to take several weeks, months, or a lucky officer spawn to accumulate a cool billion in ISK...now it can be done in as little time as it takes me to buy a couple of GTCs and convert.

The time value this game used to have doesn't mean jackshit anymore.
That means it devalues time, not ISK.
Mirime Nolwe
Mantra of Pain
#12 - 2011-10-25 14:59:35 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Killgor wrote:
The ability to spend cold hard cash and receive plex, which in turn can be sold in game for isk has really really devalued its worth.
Now, you do understand that it's the amount of ISK that devalues the ISK in that case, not the PLEX?


But it's the introduction of real money to buy directly PLEX (that its directly ISK) that takes the concept of player driven economy away. I know that we have Bots, Moons, etc etc that make a lot of passive ISK but now those players have a way of cleaning that ISK away and pass it to someone that in some terms don't deserve it (both don't deserve it anyway..)

It's a lot more complex then this and tbh i´m not an expert in economy to say that without a doubt PLEX have impact on the market and inflation of ISK. It's just what i think.

People complained about the NeX crap but we already have one option to P2W in EVE, and that it's the PLEX market. CCP in order to fight the illegal RMT created a little monster that it's slowly eating the game away.
Shirah Yuri
Tonic Empire
#13 - 2011-10-25 15:00:40 UTC
Tippia wrote:
That means it devalues time, not ISK.

Hm.... with the PLEX price development, it would appear it's currently INCREASING the isk value of time, wouldn't it?
flakeys
Doomheim
#14 - 2011-10-25 15:00:57 UTC  |  Edited by: flakeys
Killgor wrote:
Well, nothing done in game creates plex. It's not built or found. It's only here because someone paid cash for it on the Eve website and then added to someone's account. This creates more isk hence the issue. If you didn't have the ability to buy plex then less isk in game.


You are not really listening to what others say are you.

You pay money for a plex , HOWEVER that plex is exchanged with someone who ALLREADY HAS the isk wich that person then uses to pay his account with.

There is no isk created or added in this process , it exchanged hands.

The reason for the devaluation is described by someone else allready , that being the amount of isk you can farm in the game with great ease.Even in the old days there never was a need to work together to create isk , it just was done more but not out of a need but a will to.I have allmost never teamed up with someone in my eve time purely for making isk for myself.The only reason i teamed up in the past for npcíng/iskmaking was for corp operations not private ones.

We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
Shirah Yuri
Tonic Empire
#15 - 2011-10-25 15:01:44 UTC
Mirime Nolwe wrote:

But it's the introduction of real money to buy directly PLEX (that its directly ISK) that takes the concept of player driven economy away. I know that we have Bots, Moons, etc etc that make a lot of passive ISK but now those players have a way of cleaning that ISK away and pass it to someone that in some terms don't deserve it (both don't deserve it anyway..)


You always buy PLEX from another player. So how is that not player driven economy?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#16 - 2011-10-25 15:02:32 UTC
Mirime Nolwe wrote:
But it's the introduction of real money to buy directly PLEX (that its directly ISK) that takes the concept of player driven economy away.
PLEX is not ISK. You cannot turn one into the other. It doesn't take away the concept of a player-driven economy since, without that economy, you wouldn't get any ISK for your PLEX.
Quote:
People complained about the NeX crap but we already have one option to P2W in EVE, and that it's the PLEX market.
…and they were quite wrong about that simile back then too.
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#17 - 2011-10-25 15:03:39 UTC
Plex is CCPs answer to third party RMT. They couldn't be bothered to beat them, so they joined them. And while I completely disagree with that decision, it has nothing to do with ISK devaluation on it's own.

The problem is more ISK coming into the game than is leaving.

One of the main reasons for this situation is CCP turning a blind eye to large botting alliances. Ratters in null and mining bots everywhere. All this excess ISK is then RMTed by CCP as GTC/Plex and becomes essentially worthless. You can bust your balls mining for a T1 cruiser or buy a character and a super carrier to go with it via CCP approved RMT. I can't blame people for doing this, but I can blame CCP for making it easy.

Will this ever be remedied? I doubt it, based on what I've seen over the years.

Mr Epeen Cool
gfldex
#18 - 2011-10-25 15:06:23 UTC
Killgor wrote:
It takes the need away from teamwork and allows people to be more solo or less involved with the game itself. And over time, this can cause a certain amount of isolationism and then boredom sets in.


Sadly I had to watch this process myself. Corps used to do corp mining to get players into BS.

Killgor wrote:

Acquiring wealth in Eve used to take a long time but now it can simply be purchased with out of game money and converted.


I do not agree here. What has changed is what is considered wealth. A billion ISK used to be a hell of a lot of money. That has changed. Since the base price of BPOs didn't change at the same rate, the game is losing proportion.

About inflation driven by money supply, well folks you are all wrong. Look at the numbers, consumer prices are pretty much the same since we got incursions. Inflation is driven by prices of goods that can't or are hard to make or require a loan (and therefore interest), like land or buildings. Since we don't have that in EVE we wont see much inflation. In fact most of the time we have deflation in EVE.

If you take all the sand out of the box, only the cat poo will remain.
Shirah Yuri
Tonic Empire
#19 - 2011-10-25 15:06:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Shirah Yuri
Mr Epeen wrote:
One of the main reasons for this situation is CCP turning a blind eye to large botting alliances. Ratters in null and mining bots everywhere. All this excess ISK is then RMTed by CCP as GTC/Plex and becomes essentially worthless. You can bust your balls mining for a T1 cruiser or buy a character and a super carrier to go with it via CCP approved RMT. I can't blame people for doing this, but I can blame CCP for making it easy.


Have to differentiate:

- Ratting CREATES isk, hence serves to devaluate ISK
- Bot Mining CREATES wares, hence increases the value of ISK again
flakeys
Doomheim
#20 - 2011-10-25 15:09:30 UTC
Shirah Yuri wrote:
Bot Mining CREATES wares, hence increases the value of ISK again



More like decreases the value of ore/minerals .

We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
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