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New NPC AI, how about no?

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Author
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#481 - 2013-01-26 21:36:34 UTC
Vas Eldryn wrote:
so all droneboats should be treated like afk mission runners? let the one bad apple spoil the bunch?

edit: i thought eve was behind afk gaming... take afk stealth camping in null (not complaining about it i plan to use it)


no but I was primarily thinking of level 4s and higher end ships, scooping sentries only requires paying a little attention. also with a mjd and wardens you can semi afk pretty well, have to watch the frigs a bit though as they tend to get under the guns pretty easily. That said it probably sucks for people trying to run missions in vexors/arbitrators/myrmidons, but I cba to go and run some level 2/3 missions to see how bad.



Mund Richard wrote:
khamael III wrote:
At first I was concerned about this new AI, but now - after have it tested in some missions - It seems to me that the problem is being highly ovverrated, at least as far as missions are concerned.

Mediums and Heavies are kinda broken for PvE.

Lights work, but when just *one* 30k hostile webifier frig made me recall a 450k T2 drone because it was dying to it even in a 1v5, what if there would have been 5 of the enemy as well (or more...), my drone webbed+scrammed, and a bit further away?
Sniping frigs spawning 15km away with large railguns or cruise missiles (heck even bouncers) ain't really a viable option.

Only thing I can do, is wait until they orbit me, and play the release-recall game, as it breaks the AI sooner or later.
...
Until it gets fixed.

Then it's sacrificing Exotic Dancer, Female to the God of RNG, so that the AI doesn't decide to swap when my light drones are out, only when my sentries.


Mediums have been broken for ages, although they had to break them to get people to use light drones. Heavies are slow very slow, they have always been inefficient. I only use them on angel missions because bouncers don't hit ships orbiting under 10km very well, and so far I haven't had an issue.

at 30km sentries should be able to deal with it, and if it spawns 15km away it will be sub 10k rather shortly you should be able to safely use light drones then.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter

Mund Richard
#482 - 2013-01-26 22:12:04 UTC
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
Vas Eldryn wrote:
so all droneboats should be treated like afk mission runners? let the one bad apple spoil the bunch?
edit: i thought eve was behind afk gaming... take afk stealth camping in null (not complaining about it i plan to use it)
no but I was primarily thinking of level 4s and higher end ships, scooping sentries only requires paying a little attention. also with a mjd and wardens you can semi afk pretty well, have to watch the frigs a bit though as they tend to get under the guns pretty easily. That said it probably sucks for people trying to run missions in vexors/arbitrators/myrmidons, but I cba to go and run some level 2/3 missions to see how bad.

I did.
Had some standing I wanted to grind.
As long as you use small drones, and watch out for the occasional elite (many missions don't have any) then you can even AFK them in a passive Myrm with ease.

After getting this result, I tried using Medium drones while paying attention, target painting to increase hate, ect.

...5 mins later I had Hobgoblins out again, next mission I did in a Drake I think (because it's not AFK I want, just bearable PvE).

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.

Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#483 - 2013-01-27 11:38:51 UTC
>it only hurts afk drone boats
Untrue, the devs even said the worst case to afk domis was no change, probably even easier.

>just recall drones
Great, until they fix that acknowledged bug

>Use sentries
They're kind of an advanced platform - that's a bit like saying use a T3, not a viable answer imo.


This has eliminated drones as anything beyond a 5-10km platform (except sentries). Again, this hasn't caused me a problem as such but I can confirm it's added absolutely zero to my playing experience beyond making certain missions where drones were a specific counter (ewar heavy) a hassle.

I've just stopped using them, they don't bring enough to the party to merit the 500k gamble every time they stray beyond the shortest ditance possible. The slowdown in mission completion time isn't noticeable, but not replacing drones is.
Leetha Layne
#484 - 2013-01-27 17:32:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Leetha Layne
Sentries an "advanced platform?" WTF is that? You mean that you are not properly skilled to do L4s and are complaining they are too hard?


What this has eliminated is underskilled capsuleers who can sit in a BS jumping into L4s without consequence..


Wow. Just wow.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#485 - 2013-01-27 18:42:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Morrigan LeSante
For goodness sakes get a sense of perspective.

There is more to life than level 4s. Sentry drones have a pretty lengthy training time to get into the decent ones.
I don't fly drone boats but I'm kinda glad I didnt - perhaps I was more "skilled" in not picking a drone ship?

It's eliminated a decent counter to massive EWAR, beyond that it's eliminated some fun, added a bunch of hassle which I personally have simply replaced with prescision weapons/T3 comedy train.

"Skill" (trained or otherwise) has absolutely nothing to do with it, if your drones are more than about 10km out, they're dead already on a target switch. That's not "skill", that's an arbitrary distance beyond which anything not a sentry is useless. Sure, I can use "skill" and just not bother, but again. what did that add to the game?

It doesnt affect me at all, a 30 second per pocket speed bump if that, but I can understand dedicated drone boats problems and the people not rolling over level 4s at high skilll levels. That it doesnt affect me significantly does not mean that I can't understand and empathise with other peoples issues.

I just don't see what benefit this added, except to expose to horror of current drone UI/mechanics/interface.


Edit: As I sit, with my feet up and a cat on my lap draining a beer whilst I watch my ship obliterate the mission contents, all but immortal, I find the concept of "skill" all the more hilarious. I press more keys mining.
Rita Jita
Caldari Provisions
#486 - 2013-01-28 00:12:31 UTC
.

Founder of the "Haulers Channel"

Come Check It Out

Bedlin
Caldari Organizational Logistics Department
#487 - 2013-01-28 20:25:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Bedlin
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
if your drones are more than about 10km out, they're dead already on a target switch.


If they are light and you are really paying attention... they got a chance. So to reiterate, again, this change very clearly illustrates that medium and heavy drones are completely obsolesced (its a word, but I cant spell it) by the changes. Sentry drones are just fine, and light drones have a margin of usefulness.


So lets take a look just to Illustrate back one of our cases, not for drone ships but for missions (all types, so counting explorations etc...even though you wouldnt do them with this example ship just stay with me fellas, dont flame) and for this example I am going to use a Raven.

The raven's main weapon compliment is cruise missiles, "good" for battleships, "fair" for battlecruisers, middling to poor on cruisers sans target painter. Borderline worthless on frigates.

Raven's drone compliment: 75 m3/ 75m3
Everyone has always used light drones to take out frigates.... so we can say you keep one flight of light drones.
75-25= 50 remaining bandwidth.
Since the anti-cruiser assistance you desperately need should be facilitated by medium drones it would be logical to carry 5 of them to fill that remaining bandwidth AND what I believe it was initially designed to fit in that area.

T2 mediums would just be fodder for cruisers to blow up so your light drones now have to do double duty.

so do you just get 2 more flights of light drones to replace ones lost in the course of the mission? Counterproductive, you start losing drones and you are cutting into your income. Secondarily if you load 2 sentries it will give you a bit more umph but that just goes in to point out the idocracy we find ourselves in. This is not a drone boat but it has little options.

Effectively as it stands now you could make it just have 25 m3 bandwidth and give it 75m3 storage if you want it to only launch lights now and for that matter the person will probably be better off in a heavy missile drake. Way to force people back toward a drake, since at least it will be able to bring more firepower to bear on cruisers, frigates, and battlecruisers.

Thanks to Morrigan LeSante for helping me make this point.


Found this in "A drone pilot wishlist" thread in suggestions thought it was hilarious:
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
As a drone user, I only have 1 wish:

Everyone at CCP gets barred from using any ship EXCEPT drone boats for 30 days. That's all I ask.

Do that, and I guarantee you drone fixes will come piling up in no time flat. Blink

Where's the promised loot drops for Rogue Drones?    --DeMichael Crimson

Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#488 - 2013-01-28 21:29:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Morrigan LeSante
Missile boats are actually ok, if you can use T2 - precision/rigors/painters will tear even elite frigs to ribbons. But as you say, *everyone* rolled with hob for frigs, hammers for additional DPS, now though I'd rather have extra cargo space for ammo than a drone bay. They are not worth the trouble - not when a >reload with different missile>commence omgwtfbbq frig is more effective and liable to be cheaper in the long run - and effective 50-80km out, not 5km (assuming they even survive the launch properly) What?.


I'll re-post here the feedback I dropped in another thread:

Me wrote:
After some monkeying around in a myrm (@BC V) in level 3s, I can confirm my initial thoughts/assessment that light/medium/heavy drones are absolutely dead as a long range weapons platform. Drone link augmentor is a bad joke at this stage. Once you recall/resend them out of the bay often enough, the AI craps up and just wont target them any more - this is the confirmed bug I alluded to. Once that is fixed.....well, best be using sentries.

By the time the UI updated to show the NPCs were no longer targetting me, the hobgob was already into armor - at <10km out. It made it back in structure.

It begs the question - why even bother? Using something else ('cane, drake, whatever) is just so much more fun. I had to slowboat towards rats 80km away until they came close enough that I could bounce drones in and out at will with almost no time loss.

Frankly the experience simply underscores my not bothering to use them in my usual missioning affairs.
Yabba Addict
Perkone
Caldari State
#489 - 2013-01-30 16:23:19 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:

One of them is to bring PvE closer to PvP as mentioned before.


I really don't know why you want to do this. Have you any clue, just one iota of how hard pvp is when compared to missions?The average 'bear will lose ships on a daily basis when faced with this. Remember when incursions came out? Great pve content, don't get me wrong, but pvp like in nature and one of the main rules you'd hear was don't try unless you have pvp experience. Now throw your average 'bear into that, see what happens.
Mathrin
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#490 - 2013-01-30 17:46:36 UTC
This change should have happened along time ago. Now drones have a negative side like all other weapons platforms.
Bedlin
Caldari Organizational Logistics Department
#491 - 2013-01-30 18:14:59 UTC
Mathrin wrote:
This change should have happened along time ago. Now drones have a negative side like all other weapons platforms.


What is the medium or heavy drones positive side?

Or are you from the camp that you don't rely on drones and so others shouldn't need to either. (Btw I don't use drones on my Tengu either.)

Where's the promised loot drops for Rogue Drones?    --DeMichael Crimson

Jukio Saisima
Long Pig Luncheon Meat
Sending Thots And Players
#492 - 2013-01-31 02:12:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Jukio Saisima
Leetha Layne wrote:
Sentries an "advanced platform?" WTF is that? You mean that you are not properly skilled to do L4s and are complaining they are too hard?


What this has eliminated is underskilled capsuleers who can sit in a BS jumping into L4s without consequence..


Wow. Just wow.



Look miss or mister cocky. I can do lvl 4 mission just fine. No need for battleships. I just use two battlecruisers. One has heavy thank to jump in and pull them away from gate. Then I go to Tier 3 and snipe them from distance. So I have to go out of jamming range ... 140 km+.

So what have that to do with skills? I am playing EVE for about 2 months and my skills are ... well at the bottom. Green as grass.

There is no consequence jumping in to L4 mission. Even rookie like me can play with that just fine.

There is no smart AI. You can understand it in about 30 minutes. After that It is just boring and time consuming. Nothing else. There is no no challenge.

So what is the point?

Point in this is that there is no reason for people to play lvl 4 mission. Most of us do this for ISK. You can make more iSK in lvl 3 mission in the same time then in lvl 4. Not to mention mining.

Of course, excluding people who are so experienced as you are. You can as it seems make huge ISK from lvl 4 in short time.

LP
Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#493 - 2013-01-31 02:34:22 UTC
Bedlin wrote:
Mathrin wrote:
This change should have happened along time ago. Now drones have a negative side like all other weapons platforms.


What is the medium or heavy drones positive side?

Or are you from the camp that you don't rely on drones and so others shouldn't need to either. (Btw I don't use drones on my Tengu either.)


Don't want to step on toes but here goes,
1. Drones do not need ammo, they are ammo, so as ammo they should deplete.
2. The only other ammo in the game that does not deplete are T1 crystals, but they cost capacitor, so a drawback still exists.
3. Drones have all damage types covered, so once again better than lasers and comparable to all other ammo but do not deplete.
4. Drones skills are not genus based (they apply to all races)

I don't want to go on for fear of sounding like a lunatic, but these 4 reasons should be more than enough to nerf them in some way. But essentially ammo is the cost of earning ISK, winning fights, or holding ground, with drones there is little to no cost for unlimited earnings.

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.

Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#494 - 2013-01-31 08:43:21 UTC
goldiiee wrote:
Bedlin wrote:
Mathrin wrote:
This change should have happened along time ago. Now drones have a negative side like all other weapons platforms.


What is the medium or heavy drones positive side?

Or are you from the camp that you don't rely on drones and so others shouldn't need to either. (Btw I don't use drones on my Tengu either.)


Don't want to step on toes but here goes,
1. Drones do not need ammo, they are ammo, so as ammo they should deplete.
2. The only other ammo in the game that does not deplete are T1 crystals, but they cost capacitor, so a drawback still exists.
3. Drones have all damage types covered, so once again better than lasers and comparable to all other ammo but do not deplete.
4. Drones skills are not genus based (they apply to all races)

I don't want to go on for fear of sounding like a lunatic, but these 4 reasons should be more than enough to nerf them in some way. But essentially ammo is the cost of earning ISK, winning fights, or holding ground, with drones there is little to no cost for unlimited earnings.


They also have pretty lackluster DPS compared to 'real' weapons
Their damage selection is a red herring due to damage multipliers being different (unless that was changed?)
Their travel time is atrocious - that's a lot of paper DPS lost.
They're really quite easy to kill
They become easier to kill when you order a retreat (thanks MWD sig bloom!)


I can honestly say I don't recall any serious threads suggesting drones were overpowered, not in recent years Smile


Without exploiting the AI bug to switch it off, using anything beyond sentries (people are reporting lights have varied success, I found myself using warrior II for the extra GTFO factor but even they struggled) at ranges in excess of 10km will cost you dearly. That's REALLY annoying in those places where drones were used to counter NPC EWAR.
sarkenna
RIVVEN Inc
#495 - 2013-01-31 10:47:45 UTC
I came back to eve after a 1 year to 1,5 year pause. And even though the new AI sucks at various points (tracking disrupters anyone ?), my good old Navy Dominix is still the ship of choice.

The new Drone dmg mods, which had not been around last time i played increase my t2 sentry DPS to 640 - 800 (depending on type). The new AI doesn't full stage aggro and sometimes even shoots drones with battleships, thus i could decrease my tank from dual rep with 4 hardeners to 1 rep with 2 hardeners.

My drones shoot up to 100 km with ease and i cannot afk a blockade anymore BUT it is still easy to tear through missions thanks to my newfound DPS boost.

HOWEVER that beeing said everything besides sentry drones is a pain in the ass and next to useless.
So yes coming to drones for PVE you just limited the viable options to sentries ... heck i even fit small guns in the highslots for frigs..because light drones die way to fast to any random enemy frig.
Claire Raynor
NovaGear
#496 - 2013-01-31 13:55:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Claire Raynor
goldiiee wrote:
Bedlin wrote:
Mathrin wrote:
This change should have happened along time ago. Now drones have a negative side like all other weapons platforms.


What is the medium or heavy drones positive side?

Or are you from the camp that you don't rely on drones and so others shouldn't need to either. (Btw I don't use drones on my Tengu either.)


Don't want to step on toes but here goes,
1. Drones do not need ammo, they are ammo, so as ammo they should deplete.
2. The only other ammo in the game that does not deplete are T1 crystals, but they cost capacitor, so a drawback still exists.
3. Drones have all damage types covered, so once again better than lasers and comparable to all other ammo but do not deplete.
4. Drones skills are not genus based (they apply to all races)

I don't want to go on for fear of sounding like a lunatic, but these 4 reasons should be more than enough to nerf them in some way. But essentially ammo is the cost of earning ISK, winning fights, or holding ground, with drones there is little to no cost for unlimited earnings.



I don't agree with your post. If Drones are Ammo. Then Can I have 36000 rounds of them in my hold - and can they cost 196 isk each? Drones are both Ammo and the Weapon.

How many shots do you get off from a drone at > 10Km range before you lose the drone?? A hobgoblin I at 8K Isk - does damage equiv to Phased Plasma S - at a cost of 28 Isk - so for the Hobgoblin to be worth that much ammo it would have to get off, on average, 286 shots. The Hobgoblin takes up 5m^3 - Phased Plasma S tacks up 0.0025m^3 - so thats 2000 rounds of ammo.

I don't think at the moment - at ranges greated than 10K - a drone will last long enough to fire 286 shots. And the maths gets much worse when you look at the bigger drones.

I don't think the issue is with Drones getting targeted. The issue is with them getting webbed and scrammed - and then they are dead. Maybe it's just the way it will be - people don't use Tech II ammo in missions - maybe people shouldn't use Tech II drones in missions - but they DO use Tech II guns in a mission. Drones are both the Ammo and the Weapon. Drone boats are dead right now for PvE.
Bryla Jax
AeD Corp
#497 - 2013-01-31 14:35:14 UTC
From a different post :


CCP Affinity wrote:
We are reading this thread and it contains some good ideas. We are always looking for new ways to make PvE more exciting and more unpredictable but overhauling the entire mission system is not a task to be taken lightly. This will impact a huge percentage of players and requires a lot of thought, planning and most importantly - communication with the player base before we make any adjustments


So, every changes on the missions system require "a lot of thought, planning and most importantly - communication with the player".
And what about the last change you have done?
You changed the mechanics of every mission, without any thought, planning or communcation with the base player.

Reading about , "yeah yeah we know that the drone boat now sucks, but don't worry in a couple of years we will revamp all the mission systems and you will use again no sentry drones!" or something like "Eve is a sandbox, but every aspect of this game will be like PvP" is hardly acceptable by a professional game designer.

You wanna add some new missions mechanics? Cool, add it, but like a new feature.
And, for god sake, add it AFTER you complete all the design/test/balance of it, just to avoid come idea of poor job by the dev team.





Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#498 - 2013-01-31 14:47:30 UTC
Not entirely accurate - there WAS a massive feedback thread. Much of it predicting Doom™
jimbolina
Doomheim
#499 - 2013-01-31 15:34:26 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Not entirely accurate - there WAS a massive feedback thread. Much of it predicting Doom™


it was a massive thread. But hey, did CCP listen any of out thoughts?

Don't kid ourself. CCP will never make things just because we, players, want them. If they see that proposed thing fits into their agenda, then they will put it in the game.

They will simply force ideas on us, sisi doesn't exists any more. Yeah i know there is server called Singularity, but its purpose is carried onto Live server. We are testing for CCP and pays them huge pile of money while doing so. Great game!
Mathrin
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#500 - 2013-01-31 19:06:41 UTC
Bedlin wrote:
Mathrin wrote:
This change should have happened along time ago. Now drones have a negative side like all other weapons platforms.


What is the medium or heavy drones positive side?

Or are you from the camp that you don't rely on drones and so others shouldn't need to either. (Btw I don't use drones on my Tengu either.)



I can't fly a tengu. I'm amarr. Positive side of drones is: you can choose damage types. You don't need ammo. They don't rely on cap. Other weapons have these perks but none have them all. Additionally if you were smart before the ai change drones didn't get ECM, TD, damp, or neut aggro all of which can cripple other ships. So before drone users didn't have to worry about much. Now I think it's balanced as they have to react to what's on field.