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Hot drops and gate camps = lame pvp.
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Jealousy Asques
The Seventh Circle
#1 - 2013-01-30 23:56:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Jealousy Asques
I generally love pvp games, the more hardcore the better, but I've lost interest in EVE... The extent of nullsec pvp is pretty much what the title says. Hot drops as far as I'm concerned are pretty much game breaking, a very cheesy, lame and over-used tactic. The hot droppers can pick their fights for very little risk and it almost always results in one sided battles. How do they contribute to epic space battles, what this game should be about? They don't. In intermediate/newb friendly corps one hot dropper capable ship shows up in your system and everyone is told to dock up for safety. Can't risk your precious kill boards! How fun is that? It's not!

At the very least there should be a limit on how much mass or the number of ships that can hot drop through one cyno field (3-4 cruisers, 2 battleships/ 1 carrier maybe at most), and they should not be able to escape by the same method (or log out for that matter) for a very long time.

Hisec war-dec pvp where hotdrops can't happen is alot more fun and fair, but very few people do it. Established pirate corps & pros do it, and other intermediate corps run and hide from it.

Even in hisec though pvp is largely about gate camps. I don't see them as quite as lame as hot-dropping, but it's still pretty weak, and boring 95% of the time if you're the one doing it. I don't know what would have to change to fix this dynamic but I think the game would benefit from some mechanic that reduced the need to camp gates, and the effectiveness of it. Right now the game feels more like a bunch of narrow hallways and bottlenecks rather than deep space.

Imo jumpgates should be done away with entirely except for possibly jumping from region to region. With bottlenecks removed, scanning could possibly be made more effective and accessible to everyone (not just a dedicated scanning ship, though those should still have an advantage) to make it easier to find fights. IE people shouldnt have to give up a hardpoint to be able to scan people down.

I certainly don't know everything, and maybe these are bad ideas, but I do know that the title of my thread sums up the game for me.
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#2 - 2013-01-31 00:05:38 UTC
Jealousy Asques wrote:
everyone is told to dock up for safety. Can't risk your precious kill boards!

If you're docking up because of killboards I'd say you're in a terrible, terrible organization. I mean, my corp is as ****** as they come but at least our strategy is along the lines of "**** it, might as well". If my CEO started worrying about our killboards I'd go over to his house, tell him to **** off, and drink all his whiskey.

And whining about gatecamps is so passe. Get some friends and HTFU.

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
Akiyo Mayaki
Perkone
Caldari State
#3 - 2013-01-31 00:11:15 UTC
Many people seem to be happy with how it is, so I guess it ain't that bad.

Pirate

No
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
#4 - 2013-01-31 00:14:42 UTC
Jealousy Asques wrote:

Imo jumpgates should be done away with entirely except for possibly jumping from region to region.


If you are crying this much over gatecamps...i cant image the tsunami of tears that will pour from you when you need to MWD from system to system...or better yet, have the miserable experience of capdrain warp after capdrain warp for 3 hours to get to a next door system.

Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?
Jealousy Asques
The Seventh Circle
#5 - 2013-01-31 00:17:22 UTC
Karl Hobb wrote:
Jealousy Asques wrote:
everyone is told to dock up for safety. Can't risk your precious kill boards!

If you're docking up because of killboards I'd say you're in a terrible, terrible organization. I mean, my corp is as ****** as they come but at least our strategy is along the lines of "**** it, might as well". If my CEO started worrying about our killboards I'd go over to his house, tell him to **** off, and drink all his whiskey.

And whining about gatecamps is so passe. Get some friends and HTFU.



Whatever dude, if you think gate camping is fun and cannot be improved on, move along, you have nothing to contribute. In any case gate camping is not as lame as the current hot dropping mechanics.

Also, if you think a majority of the newb friendly clans don't often tell their newer members to dock up and stay there then... You are wrong. How else does any (other than very large established) corp compete with a hot dropper that drops 20-40 ships on one noob farming belt rats? Happens all the time. And then poof they are gone before anyone even knows what happened.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2013-01-31 00:17:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
The loss that caused this thread

yeah nerf cynos that'll spite those wormhole dwellers
Jealousy Asques
The Seventh Circle
#7 - 2013-01-31 00:18:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Jealousy Asques
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:
Jealousy Asques wrote:

Imo jumpgates should be done away with entirely except for possibly jumping from region to region.


If you are crying this much over gatecamps...i cant image the tsunami of tears that will pour from you when you need to MWD from system to system...or better yet, have the miserable experience of capdrain warp after capdrain warp for 3 hours to get to a next door system.


Clearly you are an idiot if you didn't think there would have to be some new mechanic to allow jumping from system to system. Think before you speak. Regardless was just a quick idea off the top of my head and not the focus of the thread. I'm just saying the current system could be better and I welcome your ideas to fix it. How is this game not about hallways and bottlenecks? Does that feel like deep space to you?
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
#8 - 2013-01-31 00:26:01 UTC
Jealousy Asques wrote:
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:
Jealousy Asques wrote:

Imo jumpgates should be done away with entirely except for possibly jumping from region to region.


If you are crying this much over gatecamps...i cant image the tsunami of tears that will pour from you when you need to MWD from system to system...or better yet, have the miserable experience of capdrain warp after capdrain warp for 3 hours to get to a next door system.


Clearly you are an idiot if you didn't think there would have to be some new mechanic to allow jumping from systemn to system. Think before you speak.


Because some other system of intersystem travel wont be camped in any way eventually too right? What is your proposal then? Cynoless jump drives? Random spawn points within lets say 13km of existing gates with 30 seconds of cloaked invulnerability? Dust Shrouds with +1 to teleport? How about we all just petetion GMs whenever we want to be moved from system to system? Wanting to remove gates because of gate camping is like removing your **** because youre afraid of STDs.

Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?
Jealousy Asques
The Seventh Circle
#9 - 2013-01-31 00:32:27 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
The loss that caused this thread

yeah nerf cynos that'll spite those wormhole dwellers


You're right I did lose a ship to hot droppers but that was a while ago. I'm sure the hot droppers think its great fun, in fact that was what I was hoping to get into because it just seemed the way to go. Foolproof and fun! But I don't think it's good for the game. It's too easy.
Jealousy Asques
The Seventh Circle
#10 - 2013-01-31 00:40:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Jealousy Asques
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:

Because some other system of intersystem travel wont be camped in any way eventually too right? What is your proposal then? Cynoless jump drives? Random spawn points within lets say 13km of existing gates with 30 seconds of cloaked invulnerability? Dust Shrouds with +1 to teleport? How about we all just petetion GMs whenever we want to be moved from system to system? Wanting to remove gates because of gate camping is like removing your **** because youre afraid of STDs.


I don't hold any illusions that the game will change, I'm just stating what I think could be improved upon for the sake of discussion. And yes cynoless jump drives that only worked at the borders of a system or at a specific distance from large gravity wells, could be an option. You would also need to be able to warp to any point in the system rather than just to presaved locations and permanent points of interest. And maybe add the ability to track warp trails ala Star Trek so that its not too easy to run and hide. I always thought it was kinda lame that you cant just pick a set of coordinates off the map and warp there. Is that beyond the capabilities of future navigation computers?

I'm open to ideas and mostly just spouting. If you don't agree that a space game with pvp based on gate camping is kinda weak then... we disagree, and theres not much more to be said. You don't have to read or reply to my post.
Dessau
The Scope
#11 - 2013-01-31 00:50:15 UTC
Well, bottlenecks in this game are way less of an issue than other open world PvP games. Map statistics can help, scrams and bubbles have hard counters.

Camps are fishing with a net instead of a spear. I don't use 'em but can't fault those who do.
ACE McFACE
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2013-01-31 00:50:48 UTC
Karl Hobb wrote:
Jealousy Asques wrote:
everyone is told to dock up for safety. Can't risk your precious kill boards!

If you're docking up because of killboards I'd say you're in a terrible, terrible organization. I mean, my corp is as ****** as they come but at least our strategy is along the lines of "**** it, might as well". If my CEO started worrying about our killboards I'd go over to his house, tell him to **** off, and drink all his whiskey.

And whining about gatecamps is so passe. Get some friends and HTFU.

This

Now, more than ever, we need a dislike button.
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#13 - 2013-01-31 00:52:14 UTC
well. it is lame but at the same time it is required in a real sandbox. You can't restrict people how they should fight.

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
Harry Inskipp
Jupiter Roughriders
White Sky.
#14 - 2013-01-31 00:52:17 UTC
In all the history of mankind and warfare, there have been very few occurrences of "fair" PVP. The Huns, the Mongols, the Nazis, the Allies, the U.S. Cavalry. The all won battles through the use of unfair tactics. Also when Seal Team 6 took out Bin Laden they did a hot drop that was incredibly unfair.

So don't expect anything different in imagination-land.
Jealousy Asques
The Seventh Circle
#15 - 2013-01-31 00:54:24 UTC
ACE McFACE wrote:

This


lol... thank you for your awesome contribution. Clearly all intermediate corps should just disband, because there is a fair and viable counter to hot dropping that they have somehow missed.
Jealousy Asques
The Seventh Circle
#16 - 2013-01-31 00:58:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Jealousy Asques
Harry Inskipp wrote:
In all the history of mankind and warfare, there have been very few occurrences of "fair" PVP. The Huns, the Mongols, the *****, the Allies, the U.S. Cavalry. The all won battles through the use of unfair tactics. Also when Seal Team 6 took out Bin Laden they did a hot drop that was incredibly unfair.

So don't expect anything different in imagination-land.



So... We should just introduce a new ship. A Death-Star that was designed with no exploitable vulnerabilities (stupid vader!) and can warp around the galaxy annihilating planets and fleets at will. It's just another mechanic like hot dropping, and we shouldnt limit how people play, right?

You have to draw the line somewhere, and hot dropping is just too easy. At least make the cyno take longer to set up, and limit the number of ships that can come through. They could still "chain-cyno" and get just as many people there, it would just take longer, not *blink* +40 ships pew pew *blink* empty space + debris.
Klown Walk
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2013-01-31 01:03:12 UTC
Gate camps is the best way to get fights imo.
Shamus O'Reilly
Candy Cabal
#18 - 2013-01-31 01:05:57 UTC
Jealousy Asques wrote:
ACE McFACE wrote:

This


lol... thank you for your awesome contribution. Clearly all intermediate corps should just disband, because there is a fair and viable counter to hot dropping that they have somehow missed.

Youre raging on about a tool in a sandbox. Hotdrops have led to many even fights, escalated to fleet battles such as Asakai (and allowed for them to happen), just as they have for the group to drop a gatecamp or a small gang just so they can kill them. I've been on the receiving end of Hot Drops. All they did for me was say oh **** and then laugh my ass off Lol

"I swear there are more people complaining over "nullsecers complaining" then actual nullsec people complaining."
Shamus O'Reilly
Candy Cabal
#19 - 2013-01-31 01:08:56 UTC
Jealousy Asques wrote:
Harry Inskipp wrote:
In all the history of mankind and warfare, there have been very few occurrences of "fair" PVP. The Huns, the Mongols, the *****, the Allies, the U.S. Cavalry. The all won battles through the use of unfair tactics. Also when Seal Team 6 took out Bin Laden they did a hot drop that was incredibly unfair.

So don't expect anything different in imagination-land.



So... We should just introduce a new ship. A Death-Star that was designed with no exploitable vulnerabilities (stupid vader!) and can warp around the galaxy annihilating planets and fleets at will. It's just another mechanic like hot dropping, and we shouldnt limit how people play, right?

You have to draw the line somewhere, and hot dropping is just too easy. At least make the cyno take longer to set up, and limit the number of ships that can come through. They could still "chain-cyno" and get just as many people there, it would just take longer, not *blink* +40 ships pew pew *blink* empty space + debris.

If you honestly think that hot dropping is on par with a Death Star style weapon then you're really... honestly either the most unlucky low/null dweller alive or you can't counter them as many can. By the way you can just say im a hotdropper right now so i can laugh because i've never used a titan bridge in game

"I swear there are more people complaining over "nullsecers complaining" then actual nullsec people complaining."
Vertisce Soritenshi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2013-01-31 01:11:32 UTC
I am kind of with the OP on this one. I am a 10 year vet of EVE. Multiple accounts trained and sold throughout that time and the vast majority of it was fun. Currently I have been on a hiatus from EVE for reasons anchored firmly in reality...unfortunately...but right now I really don't know for sure if I even want to come back to EVE. People talk about how hardcore EVE is with it's PVP but all I have seen for years now is gatecamps, station games and hotdrops. Even WH space PVP got dull because all anybody did was play games on the WH's and crash them thinking they are the "l33t roxxxxor PEE VEE PEEers" because they trap a single ship on one side of a WH and then log off because they are afraid to lose a ship.

It just isn't all that fun anymore. Nullsec is clearly not what it was intended to be with half the galaxy blue to each other and both sides too afraid to actually do anything to the other for fear of losing too much. The Sov system is nothing short of a massive pain in the ass. Jump bridges were a HUGE mistake right from the get go and should be removed entirely from the game to spur more PVP and better economy in nullsec...

I could go on...but I won't. Suffice it to say that EVE has changed. Maybe for the better, maybe not...either way...it isn't for everybody and slowly, very slowly becoming less and less "my game".

Bounties for all! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2279821#post2279821
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