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Consequences of A Bored Null
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Shamus O'Reilly
Candy Cabal
#101 - 2013-01-30 23:08:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Shamus O'Reilly
NEONOVUS wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
NEONOVUS wrote:

Im curious about this.

http://eve.1019.net/pos/?ct=00&mod=03030303031N1N1N1N1N1O1O1O1O1O1P1P1P1P1P0V0V0V0V0W0W0W0W0U0U&off=

That has more production slots than a hisec station 5x, they can be traded around if you want to make more and it can be tanked better without losing as much production as a station.
And as there are more moons than stations well why are you complaining?
Aside from logistics but that is separate from your claim.


It also costs around 300 mil every 21 days to run a large POS whether you use it or not . Far cheaper to use high sec and just JF it to where we need it.

See now that is a better argument than saying you cant match production in high (as disclosure I ran a large minmatar pos in Namaili and made my first billion that way) you cant make as much profit as a hisec station per item but you can make more profit through sheer volume.

As for the wardeccing and all, I laugh as you can shove the pos in a back water system and work there.
Probably safer than having to deal with the war dec and take down in hisec.

Whatever point is you can build as much in null as in hi, you just find it less risky to riskless to do so in hi.

Even then you can build more in hisec than in nullsec. a Player Owned Station or a POS cannot make up the sheer potential of NPC station usage in hisec.

1: In nullsec you cannot have more than one station per system.
2: A maxed out station in nullsec still cannot beat hisec stations for build slots one vs one.
3: In order to maximize potential in nullsec you cannot refine and build in the same station (Correct me if i am wrong here)
4: You need to be in an alliance to use nullsec stations that you own after you spend billions building them and billions more to upgrade them and the corresponding system it is in.

5: Even if all of this is fixed. Nullsec does not have enough lowends to support the sheer amount of high end minerals you can collect. You basically need to mine the region out in order to be on even levels with the high ends you get from one or two systems (Somewhat an exaggeration but it gets the point across)

"I swear there are more people complaining over "nullsecers complaining" then actual nullsec people complaining."
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#102 - 2013-01-30 23:12:19 UTC
Rellik B00n wrote:
Does it not make sense then in all honesty that the best place to trade is within the walls of the fortresses built by our NPC overlords in high sec?
Markets (tertiary economy) emerge from manufacturing (secondary economy).
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#103 - 2013-01-30 23:15:41 UTC
NEONOVUS wrote:

See now that is a better argument than saying you cant match production in high (as disclosure I ran a large minmatar pos in Namaili and made my first billion that way) you cant make as much profit as a hisec station per item but you can make more profit through sheer volume.

As for the wardeccing and all, I laugh as you can shove the pos in a back water system and work there.
Probably safer than having to deal with the war dec and take down in hisec.

Whatever point is you can build as much in null as in hi, you just find it less risky to riskless to do so in hi.


No we find that it is far cheaper to run industry jobs in high sec as it is damn near free. Even when you factor in fuel costs you are paying a fraction of the costs you face doing the same job in null sec.
NEONOVUS
Mindstar Technology
Goonswarm Federation
#104 - 2013-01-30 23:16:49 UTC  |  Edited by: NEONOVUS
uh that pos has over 125 slots
granted they are mixed but the usage is the same between modules so it would still be 125
So how is that worse than a hisec station 20?
Oh wait .75 build time so 166 slots effective.
So yeah.
Also arent people complaining about npc corp wardec immunity and then here you are advocating station tank industry?

baltec1 wrote:
NEONOVUS wrote:

See now that is a better argument than saying you cant match production in high (as disclosure I ran a large minmatar pos in Namaili and made my first billion that way) you cant make as much profit as a hisec station per item but you can make more profit through sheer volume.

As for the wardeccing and all, I laugh as you can shove the pos in a back water system and work there.
Probably safer than having to deal with the war dec and take down in hisec.

Whatever point is you can build as much in null as in hi, you just find it less risky to riskless to do so in hi.


No we find that it is far cheaper to run industry jobs in high sec as it is damn near free. Even when you factor in fuel costs you are paying a fraction of the costs you face doing the same job in null sec.

Which is what I said.
You CAN do industry easily in null, you just would rather not face the risk of doing so.

ability != superior
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#105 - 2013-01-30 23:23:50 UTC
NEONOVUS wrote:

Which is what I said.
You CAN do industry easily in null, you just would rather not face the risk of doing so.

ability != superior


No its cost. Risk has nothing to do with it.
Piugattuk
Litla Sundlaugin
#106 - 2013-01-30 23:26:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Piugattuk
One solution I purposed was allowing null alliances the absolute right to build as many outposts as there is like empire mechanics if there's planet the they should be able to anchor an outpost same as NPC corps do in hi, then give outpost 100+ slots for manufacturing and slots for R&D

Supersize those roids like Veldspar and Scordite the basic building blocks.

Next build Capitol sized miner ships with 100,000 m3 cargo capacity and strip miners lasers that mine 5000 m3 per cycle and a range of 50km's so they don't get stuck on roids and since frighters can now scoop stuff out of space they can do Capitol sized jobs.

That'd be a hell of a hot drop fight tho.
Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#107 - 2013-01-30 23:26:37 UTC
NEONOVUS wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
NEONOVUS wrote:

Im curious about this.

http://eve.1019.net/pos/?ct=00&mod=03030303031N1N1N1N1N1O1O1O1O1O1P1P1P1P1P0V0V0V0V0W0W0W0W0U0U&off=

That has more production slots than a hisec station 5x, they can be traded around if you want to make more and it can be tanked better without losing as much production as a station.
And as there are more moons than stations well why are you complaining?
Aside from logistics but that is separate from your claim.


It also costs around 300 mil every 21 days to run a large POS whether you use it or not . Far cheaper to use high sec and just JF it to where we need it.

See now that is a better argument than saying you cant match production in high (as disclosure I ran a large minmatar pos in Namaili and made my first billion that way) you cant make as much profit as a hisec station per item but you can make more profit through sheer volume.

As for the wardeccing and all, I laugh as you can shove the pos in a back water system and work there.
Probably safer than having to deal with the war dec and take down in hisec.

Whatever point is you can build as much in null as in hi, you just find it less risky to riskless to do so in hi.


Do the math on how many isotopes that tower consumes, and then compare it to how many isotopes a jump freighter consumes. You could build in some out of the way highsec station and jump your product anywhere in the galaxy for far cheaper than using that decked out POS.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#108 - 2013-01-30 23:33:08 UTC
NEONOVUS wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
NEONOVUS wrote:

Im curious about this.

http://eve.1019.net/pos/?ct=00&mod=03030303031N1N1N1N1N1O1O1O1O1O1P1P1P1P1P0V0V0V0V0W0W0W0W0U0U&off=

That has more production slots than a hisec station 5x, they can be traded around if you want to make more and it can be tanked better without losing as much production as a station.
And as there are more moons than stations well why are you complaining?
Aside from logistics but that is separate from your claim.


It also costs around 300 mil every 21 days to run a large POS whether you use it or not . Far cheaper to use high sec and just JF it to where we need it.

See now that is a better argument than saying you cant match production in high (as disclosure I ran a large minmatar pos in Namaili and made my first billion that way) you cant make as much profit as a hisec station per item but you can make more profit through sheer volume.

As for the wardeccing and all, I laugh as you can shove the pos in a back water system and work there.
Probably safer than having to deal with the war dec and take down in hisec.

Whatever point is you can build as much in null as in hi, you just find it less risky to riskless to do so in hi.

With lower mineral costs in null sec my overal build cost on a 0/ 0 line is about what it cost for me to build the same T2 item in high sec.

The problemis when someone brings a bunch of that high sec manufactured item down from high sec and sells it for just over jita cost, because THEIR happy with 10k isk profit on something that is purchased for a couple of million isk.

I can make more reselling the minerals I purchased at that point.

The trader only sees isk investment, the builder has to look at material investment. Low profit margins are fine in high sec, where you trade in volume; it's not good in null sec where people actually want to build **** but can't becaue the mineral value is higher then the profit margin on the **** we build.

I mine the bulk of minerals I need in high sec, I can't do that in null. I'm dependant upon the miners mining and making less selling in null than exporting or just mining in high. You can't just undock from null and go to a belt and start mining like you can in high sec, that's why it's so much cheaper to build there.

Trit and mex are cheaper for me to import from high and there are even bottlenecks on the high end stuff that make me need to import from high more than I want. Along with the need to import the T2 components I need.
If the minerals I buy in null aren't sufficiently low enough, at which point the miners are simply being screwed, it costs more for me to build in null.

Null corps can't stop people from importing, it's needed. There's simply to many things that are needed for us to build everything ourselves, and it shouldn't even work that way.

There is no reason, however, that high sec should be able to supply most of all the T2 goods throughout the entire game because it's just as cheap and often cheaper to build in high sec.
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#109 - 2013-01-30 23:35:01 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
CCP looked at this and decided their work was complete, and would not iterate on nullsec for the next 2 1/2 years after threats of mass unsubs, instead focusing on developing WoW-style raids and Space Barbie.


Hrm... If I didn't know any better, it seems CCP can justify itself with its current subscription numbers.

But you do know better, don't you?


I'm only saying record subscription numbers and record current connected users seem to be saying something along the lines of "Our wallet full of money says you are wrong."

Oh so you wrote "If I didn't know any better" because you read it in a book or something.
I guess that "summer of rage" was actually over nothing and CCP laid of 20% of its success for no reason because according to "Captain Tardbar" CCP was in a really successful financial state at the time. You see he's got this link to "vgchartz.com" where thanks largely to Chinese server growth EVE subs topped 450k - what a relief, Hilmar apologized to the playerbase for nothing!

Great post.


Ok sure the Chinese helped the numbers a bit, but if you haven't noticed there are usually 50,000 players on during the weekend and I remember those number being lower in the past from a few years ago.

Obviously CCP is doing something that the players agree with, no?

Otherwise we'd see lower numbers.

If CCP is angering the player base why aren't we seeing numbers down to 20K or 10K?

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#110 - 2013-01-30 23:36:40 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:

The inhabitants of 0.0 aren't ragtag small gangs of uncivilized explorers. They are standing armies numbering in the thousands that are not only the largest player entities in EVE Online, but the most regimented and coordinated gaming 'clans' of any MMO in existence period.


This is not relevant and neither true.
Keep feeding this illusion cna only lead to be progressively marginalized in the community and in CCP plans. As is already happening since maybe 2-3 years: A minority is a minority, no matter how well organizzed or cool they are when it comes to count subscriptions, forcing the company to brually evaluate numbers is not a good idea here.


Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:

But that can't happen if highsec industry is in its current state, with its effectively unlimited (able to supply all regions of space effortlessly), free and 99.95% efficient industrial base. Incentivizing industry in a region is impossible when there's a risk-free, cost-free alternative with unlimited capacity. If there was a way of solving null's problems without touching upon highsec whatsoever, I would be wholly for it. So I advocate a sensible balancing where the goal is buff nullsec industry to the point where people living in 0.0 will be able to supply themselves, while reducing highsec capacity (not 'increasing cost') to the poiint where it will still be able to support its own needs but not be able to effortlessly supply all of New Eden's material consumption.


Fine, I could buy your vision of null. But who say have to be economically indpendnets. NO enthity in a game like EVE have to be indipendent, is not healthy for the gameplay. EVE is based just on the fact that all his ocmponents in some way interact and condition one each other, people have to move, trade, interacct, share their gameplay, events happening in 0.0 have to affect high sec, directly or indirectly and vice versa.

Pushing to have EVE universe splitted in totally indipendent areas is the dead for EVE... then why do not split on different servers??

Demanding a 100% economically indipendent null is equivalent to demanding high sec as indipendent safe area. And equally disruptive for the sandbox.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#111 - 2013-01-30 23:46:38 UTC
Sura Sadiva wrote:


Fine, I could buy your vision of null. But who say have to be economically indpendnets. NO enthity in a game like EVE have to be indipendent, is not healthy for the gameplay. EVE is based just on the fact that all his ocmponents in some way interact and condition one each other, people have to move, trade, interacct, share their gameplay, events happening in 0.0 have to affect high sec, directly or indirectly and vice versa.

Pushing to have EVE universe splitted in totally indipendent areas is the dead for EVE... then why do not split on different servers??

Demanding a 100% economically indipendent null is equivalent to demanding high sec as indipendent safe area. And equally disruptive for the sandbox.




EVE isn't black and white.

Reducing the output of T2 goods in high sec is not making null "econmically independant".
Materials still need to move between the two regions, that doesn't mean that T2 goods should be cheaper to build in high sec.

No one is asking for "100% economically independent null".

We're penalized for joining a player run corporation and living in null, as an industrialist.
I can buy T2 BPC in high sec and build from them and do just as well as I do in null.

I'm a ******* non-factor in null sec. People like me aren't worth putting in your corporation in null, because you do not need me. This is a real situation, it's not hyperbole or grand exageration, it's the reality of bulding in null.

I played in high sec, as a member of an NPC corp for 5 years. You can not tell me there's no problem here. My entire playstyle is being undermined by an entire area of the game.

You guys are the same group that will constantly through out the "how I want to play" arguement. Guess what, I want to ******* build things in null and feel like I"m contributing to something, and YOU keep forcing me to play in ways I shouldn't have.


Every null builder in this thread has said they have a high sec alt building for them, and you guys keep telling us everything is fine.

Read that last bit again!
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#112 - 2013-01-30 23:50:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Sura Sadiva wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:

The inhabitants of 0.0 aren't ragtag small gangs of uncivilized explorers. They are standing armies numbering in the thousands that are not only the largest player entities in EVE Online, but the most regimented and coordinated gaming 'clans' of any MMO in existence period.

This is not relevant and neither true.
I like the reams of evidence you provided to qualify this statement.

Feel free to describe some 'clans' of another MMO and their size and level of sophistication and counter my claim.

Sura Sadiva wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:

But that can't happen if highsec industry is in its current state, with its effectively unlimited (able to supply all regions of space effortlessly), free and 99.95% efficient industrial base. Incentivizing industry in a region is impossible when there's a risk-free, cost-free alternative with unlimited capacity. If there was a way of solving null's problems without touching upon highsec whatsoever, I would be wholly for it. So I advocate a sensible balancing where the goal is buff nullsec industry to the point where people living in 0.0 will be able to supply themselves, while reducing highsec capacity (not 'increasing cost') to the poiint where it will still be able to support its own needs but not be able to effortlessly supply all of New Eden's material consumption.


Fine, I could buy your vision of null. But who say have to be economically indpendnets. NO enthity in a game like EVE have to be indipendent, is not healthy for the gameplay. EVE is based just on the fact that all his ocmponents in some way interact and condition one each other, people have to move, trade, interacct, share their gameplay, events happening in 0.0 have to affect high sec, directly or indirectly and vice versa.

Pushing to have EVE universe splitted in totally indipendent areas is the dead for EVE... then why do not split on different servers??

Demanding a 100% economically indipendent null is equivalent to demanding high sec as indipendent safe area. And equally disruptive for the sandbox.

Who was advocating "total economic independence" for null?
Sovereign alliances would still need to trade T2 minerals among each other in order to produce T2 ships. And they'd need to still import both navy and pirate faction ships. And T3 ships. And they'd need a neutral area to do that in. Non-sovnull space will still retain their niches on certain resources, retaining their lucrative qualities. Do I think highsec's 'niche' is "total manufacturing and low-end superiority for all of New Eden" though? No not really.
Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#113 - 2013-01-30 23:53:31 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:

Every null builder in this thread has said they have a high sec alt building for them, and you guys keep telling us everything is fine.

Read that last bit again!




To be fair, I said I build in nullsec, but it is just a hand full in demand T1 items. But is only 1 leg of my finances, along with exporting raw materials and importing finished products.

I could do better in terms of variety and volume manufacturing in highsec though, but I get a perverse sense of fulfillment doing it where the odds are stacked against me.
Shamus O'Reilly
Candy Cabal
#114 - 2013-01-30 23:56:21 UTC
I honestly never thought i'd be agreeing with so many goonies in a single thread.... Shocked

"I swear there are more people complaining over "nullsecers complaining" then actual nullsec people complaining."
Mistah Ewedynao
Ice Axe Psycho Killers
#115 - 2013-01-30 23:56:29 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:

Every null builder in this thread has said they have a high sec alt building for them, and you guys keep telling us everything is fine.

Read that last bit again!



working as intended?

T2 keeps coming up in most of your posts. You say it's wrong that null has to depend on high sec for T2 manufacturing.

Well then I say it's wrong that Empire has to depend on null for the materials to manufacture T2 components.

Do you want to leave us any crumbs at all? Seriously.

Nerf Goons

Nuke em from orbit....it's the only way to be sure.
Shamus O'Reilly
Candy Cabal
#116 - 2013-01-31 00:00:03 UTC
Mistah Ewedynao wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:

Every null builder in this thread has said they have a high sec alt building for them, and you guys keep telling us everything is fine.

Read that last bit again!



working as intended?

T2 keeps coming up in most of your posts. You say it's wrong that null has to depend on high sec for T2 manufacturing.

Well then I say it's wrong that Empire has to depend on null for the materials to manufacture T2 components.

Do you want to leave us any crumbs at all? Seriously.

You do know that if hi/null indie rebalancing does happen theyd still sell hiends and ships to jita right...? Either that or get ballzy and start a lowsec indie group or go to Wspace where its not only profitable beyond belief but fun as hell

"I swear there are more people complaining over "nullsecers complaining" then actual nullsec people complaining."
NEONOVUS
Mindstar Technology
Goonswarm Federation
#117 - 2013-01-31 00:00:24 UTC
Shamus O'Reilly wrote:
I honestly never thought i'd be agreeing with so many goonies in a single thread.... Shocked

That's because the ones here are the haggard industrialists the salt of null the vander wall forces of the region.

But yeah high is to good in that it allows everyone to use it.
Perhaps making them npc corp only and then disallowing invention would fix it.
Along with halving the number of slots.
Thus making low look better eliminating thw whole one man corp thing that higher rates would cause.
Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#118 - 2013-01-31 00:00:47 UTC
Mistah Ewedynao wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:

Every null builder in this thread has said they have a high sec alt building for them, and you guys keep telling us everything is fine.

Read that last bit again!



working as intended?

T2 keeps coming up in most of your posts. You say it's wrong that null has to depend on high sec for T2 manufacturing.

Well then I say it's wrong that Empire has to depend on null for the materials to manufacture T2 components.

Do you want to leave us any crumbs at all? Seriously.



You going to complain about how datacores got moved to lowsec with Faction Warfare?
Mistah Ewedynao
Ice Axe Psycho Killers
#119 - 2013-01-31 00:08:10 UTC
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:
Mistah Ewedynao wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:

Every null builder in this thread has said they have a high sec alt building for them, and you guys keep telling us everything is fine.

Read that last bit again!



working as intended?

T2 keeps coming up in most of your posts. You say it's wrong that null has to depend on high sec for T2 manufacturing.

Well then I say it's wrong that Empire has to depend on null for the materials to manufacture T2 components.

Do you want to leave us any crumbs at all? Seriously.



You going to complain about how datacores got moved to lowsec with Faction Warfare?



Yeah I am. WTF does faction warfare have to do with the months I invested in research skills to get datacores?

But we digress.

Have you really done the math re: doing reactions and building your own T2 components in a POS in null?

Since all the reactions in empire have to be done in low sec, how is this all a fault with us poor high sec industry guys?

Nerf Goons

Nuke em from orbit....it's the only way to be sure.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#120 - 2013-01-31 00:10:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Natsett Amuinn
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:

Every null builder in this thread has said they have a high sec alt building for them, and you guys keep telling us everything is fine.

Read that last bit again!




To be fair, I said I build in nullsec, but it is just a hand full in demand T1 items. But is only 1 leg of my finances, along with exporting raw materials and importing finished products.

I could do better in terms of variety and volume manufacturing in highsec though, but I get a perverse sense of fulfillment doing it where the odds are stacked against me.

That is true.

But so was the comment I got about being the sleezy promoter. Lol


Edit: I did make a living selling stuff, and was really good at it.