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Mining Fleet effeciency
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zatazon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1 - 2011-10-25 07:49:23 UTC
I have an Orca/Hulk Pilot with maxed refininy/mining skills and almost maxed Mining Boosting(working on maxing it out). I have an Alt that is soon to be a Hulk pilot and i was wondering if anyone knows off the top of their head what is the better combo. Should i run both hulks mining and hauling their own ore or is a Orca/Hulk combo better? I would use mining drones on both aside from when the rats come out to play. T2 miners with t2 crystals on the hulks, so yeah, thanks in advance for any help.
Yorick rashnikov
The Illuminatii
Wrecktical Supremacy.
#2 - 2011-10-25 09:22:35 UTC
my main account is an orca pilot and i run mining ops fairly often.
You need around 2-3 Hulks before it makes up for the missing hulk spot the orca is taking.
on the other hand -> if you have a orca that means the hulk doesent have to travel that much.

but on paper you'd get more yield with 2 hulks than 1 hulk and an orca.
zatazon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3 - 2011-10-25 09:28:58 UTC
Ok thanks, I guess it will come down to if i want to be lazy and haul less or pay more attention and do 2 hulks. Thank you very much for the answer. Happy rock smashing
Bloody Wench
#4 - 2011-10-25 12:03:44 UTC
I thought it was 4 hulks & Orca is better than 5 hulks.

I have no evidence to back this up, just what's in my head.

[u]**Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote: **[/u]  CCP should not only make local delayed in highsec, but they should also require one be undocked to use it. Then, even the local spammers have some skin in the game. Support a High Resolution Texture Pack
Eddie Laydon
Laydon Industries
#5 - 2011-10-25 13:10:58 UTC
a maxed out orca gives a 56% boost, so 2 hulks and 1 orca are better than 3 hulks.

ps why dont you just let the hulks/orca tank the rats and let the mining drones do their thing, that way you wont loose any when the rats respawn.
zatazon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#6 - 2011-10-25 18:08:37 UTC
Eddie Laydon wrote:
a maxed out orca gives a 56% boost, so 2 hulks and 1 orca are better than 3 hulks.

ps why dont you just let the hulks/orca tank the rats and let the mining drones do their thing, that way you wont loose any when the rats respawn.



Thanks for the actual numbers, as for the rats... I could just let them tank, but there is just something about getting shot at and not shooting back that bugs me. So I either run mining drones and swap them out or if I'm really lazy just leave my combat drones out. I don't claim to be the most efficient miner, but it works for me.
Jenn Makanen
Doomheim
#7 - 2011-10-25 18:20:08 UTC
Eddie Laydon wrote:
a maxed out orca gives a 56% boost, so 2 hulks and 1 orca are better than 3 hulks.



And that's not covering the bonus cycles from not needing to run to a station to drop off your ore. Or the extended range.
Igniskhin
Fortis Fortuna Adiuvatt
#8 - 2011-10-25 19:51:44 UTC
for pure mining efficiency i agree with the people above me, 2 hulks 1 orca with even close to perfect skills (i cant remember if the 56% is with or with out the implant) produces more raw ore then 3 hulks.

but if you want a less interactive play style then 1 hulk and 1 orca you only have to look at the screen every... 9 minutes i think... longer if you switch from MLUs to cargo expander but then your pushing something like 1.5 hours to fill the orca (this is very fuzzy math that I'm only half remembering FYI so i could be way off)
george harries
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#9 - 2011-10-26 10:09:53 UTC
^ what he said - I semi-afk mine - whilst watching tv or reading, yes 2 hulks are far more efficient but if you cba with the additional alt-tabbing and clicking then it's fine - and the orca pilot can always have mining drones out for a bit of extra yield.

But then I'm usually lying down with laptop on a small table near to me so it suits my 'playstyle' when not doing something more immersive like missions or PvP.
People's Republic ofChina
My Other Capital Ship is Your Mom
#10 - 2011-10-26 11:01:39 UTC
You definitely need a hauling character for a proper mining operation, so might as well make that an orca, 1 hulk or 5 it matters not. Jet canning is not a viable alternative because of people like me and GSCs are painful.
DetKhord Saisio
Seniors Clan
#11 - 2011-10-26 11:53:46 UTC
People's Republic ofChina wrote:
GSCs are painful.


Agreed, they can be if not used efficiently with an alt hauler. Train an alt to pilot an Orca. While training, fly an industry hauler. Anchor one Giant Secure Container (GSC) with ~15km of ore on both sides towards opposite ends of the belt. Since range of most strip miners is 15 km, you can float about 2km further towards the ends... extending your "reach" per GSC to about 34km.

Only use one GSC per 34 km section of asteroid belt. Only use the GSC to transfer ore between mining ship and hauler.
Winlet Dorn
Doomheim
#12 - 2011-10-26 15:19:16 UTC
My mini mining fleet is composed as such:

1 Orca (maxed skills + the mining foreman mindlink) with Laser Optimization, Mining Field Laser enhancement and a tractor beam. The Orca acts as a command point for everything from dropping ore/hauling it away when full, Rat defense, mining crystal storage point, etc. via the corp hanger

2 Hulks with max skills + implants
1 Retriever (he's working on getting Hulk skills)

I let all the mining craft dump ore straight to the Orca until it's full and then run it back to station. It lose very little yield in that process, plus it allows me to stay out there longer handing out bonuses to the Hulks. The Gang modules allow me to hit rocks at 22km. And when rats come come calling, the Orca fights them off which allows the Hulks to run mining drones, thus increasing their yield.

Right now, with that set-up, I can fill up an Orca in about 40 minutes.
Emma Royd
Maddled Gommerils
#13 - 2011-10-26 16:09:58 UTC
My mining team (albeit ice mining) is 7 miners, 1 maxed orca with the Laser Optimization link in and 2x tractor beams, and an iteron V pilot,

I used to gather everyone around the orca and use corp hangar to drop into, and then the iteron to pick out of.

That was, until I read a post that made me think how vulnerable my set up was to a smarty bs, 7 macks all within a few km of the orca, so I spend a bit of time with a ceptor buzzing around creating bookmarks so now, all the miners are at least 10km from another miner, the orca hauls the cans in and the iteron picks from the orca.
I still get the cycle bonus, but not the range, but that's not so important for ice mining. If I was ore mining, then I'd drop one of the tractors and put a mining laser field enhancement on instead, but still try and split up a bit so it's not just a ball of miners.
Suki Okiwana
Sceptical Hippo Inc.
#14 - 2011-10-27 07:35:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Suki Okiwana
Eddie Laydon wrote:
a maxed out orca gives a 56% boost, so 2 hulks and 1 orca are better than 3 hulks.


yields normalized to 1 minute


1.) boosted hulk:

no gang assist modules

3 * modulated strip miner II * mining crystal II * 2 * mining laser upgrade II * mining V * astrogeology V * mining foreman V with mindlink * mining barges V * exhumers V * highwall hx2 * michi

3 * 360 / 3 * 1.75 * 1.09^2 * 1.25 * 1.25 * 1.15 * 1.15 * 1.15 * 1.05 * 1.05 = 1961 m3/min


2.) support hulk:

no michi because of mindlink

3 * modulated strip miner II * mining crystal II * mining laser upgrade II * mining V * astrogeology V * mining foreman V with mindlink * mining barges V * exhumers V * highwall hx2

3 * 360 / 3 * 1.75 * 1.09^2 * 1.25 * 1.25 * 1.15 * 1.15 * 1.15 * 1.05 = 1867 m3/min


3.) orca:

laser optimization * mining director V * warfare link V * mindlink * industrial command ship V

0.02 * 5 * 1.5 * 1.5 * 1.15 = 0.25875 cycle time bonus

expressed as a yield bonus over 1 minute:

1/((1 - 0.25875) * 60) * 60 = 1.349


4.) orca boosted hulk:

boosted hulk * orca bonus

1961 * 1.349 = 2645 m3/min


5.) comparison

2 hulks: 1961 + 1867 = 3828 m3/min
1 hulk 1 orca: 1961 * 1.349 = 2645 m3/min

3 hulks: 2 * 1961 + 1867 = 5789 m3/min
2 hulks 1 orca: 2 * 1961 * 1.349 = 5290 m3/min

4 hulks: 3 * 1961 + 1867 = 7750 m3/min
3 hulks 1 orca: 3 * 1961 * 1.349 = 7936 m3/min
People's Republic ofChina
My Other Capital Ship is Your Mom
#15 - 2011-10-29 22:45:05 UTC
Suki Okiwana wrote:


5.) comparison

2 hulks: 1961 + 1867 = 3828 m3/min
1 hulk 1 orca: 1961 * 1.349 = 2645 m3/min

3 hulks: 2 * 1961 + 1867 = 5789 m3/min
2 hulks 1 orca: 2 * 1961 * 1.349 = 5290 m3/min

4 hulks: 3 * 1961 + 1867 = 7750 m3/min
3 hulks 1 orca: 3 * 1961 * 1.349 = 7936 m3/min


All of the above is purely academic, as 2 hulks no transport is not a viable option and 1 hulk 1 (anything else) is less effective than 1 hulk 1 orca.

(Ignoring the Rorqual).
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#16 - 2011-10-30 00:13:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
I've posted the math before, but let me share my experience.

For ease of ore mining, nothing beats having an Orca, or any hauler, along with you when mining ore. Forget the math. Hulks very quickly rip huge m3 amounts of ore out of asteroids.

However, for mining ice, an Orca or hauler is extremely inefficient because ice harvesting cycles are so long. For example, with Exhumers 4 in a Mackinaw fit to carry 3 cycles of ice (12,000 m3), that Mackinaw doesn't need to unload for nearly 20 minutes. Hence my mining booster and Orca / Rorqual pilot is also a Mackinaw pilot.

Ore: Hulk + Orca
Ice: 2x Mackinaw

For the math crowd, don't forget that Mining Director still gives a 10 percent yield bonus without mining links, and the Mining Foreman Mindlink inplant also still raises that to 15 percent without mining links.

I personally use 2x Hulk + Orca / Rorqual + Bustard hauling, as even two fully boosted Hulks rip a lot of m3 of ore that can quickly fill an Orca.
Suki Okiwana
Sceptical Hippo Inc.
#17 - 2011-10-30 03:06:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Suki Okiwana
People's Republic ofChina wrote:
All of the above is purely academic...

Note what my post was in response to; he got to the right conclusion with false reasoning.


People's Republic ofChina wrote:
2 hulks no transport is not a viable option...

Define viable.

1.) hulk + orca:

2645 m3/min as shown in my previous post.

2.) 2 * max cargo hulk returning to station:

-capacity: 18727 m3
-boosted hulk yield: 1650 m3/min
-support hulk yield: 1571 m3/min
-assuming a generous 4 minute round trip to station
-use of jet cans to work around fractional cycles

(18727 / (18727 / 1650 + 4)) + (18727 / (18727 / 1571 + 4)) = 2396 m3/min

10% better yield for several months of added training time. Failing to max the orca the double hulk setup wins outright. In my book this is not a bargain that separates viable from unviable.

3.) 2 * max yield hulk, switching to iteron V for hauling:

-iteron V capacity: 49233 m3 (cargohold optimization I and giant secure containers)
-boosted hulk yield: 1961 m3/min
-support hulk yield: 1867 m3/min
-assuming the hauler mines for 60 minutes at a time (my choice back when I did this; less frequent hauling -> better yield but more risk)
-assuming a generous 4 minute round trip to station
-also 4 minutes to switch ships, hulk filled with ore when returning to station

1867 * 60 + 1961 * (60 + 4 + 4x) = 10580 + 49233x

x = 5.5 -> 6 rounds required to deliver ore

1867 * 60 + 1961 * (60 + 4 + 4 * 6) = 284588

284588 / (60 + 4 + 4 * 6) = 3233 m3/min

(This method easily beats the orca even with a bestower.)


I take academic over anecdotal or erroneous any day. Actually having tried all three I got the best of the bunch that is empirical.
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#18 - 2011-10-30 03:21:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Krixtal Icefluxor
WHY OH WHY the overlong UberGeek Complicated Answers to a simple question from a guy limited to TWO TOONS ?? Sheesh.

IF you are limited to 2 toons...........

Running back and forth to drop off ore with BOTH Hulks will absolutely eat into any gains from the benefit of the 2nd Hulk. That is a LOT of time spent moving instead of mining with the 2 Hulks. So, no benefit here unless you have a 3rd Toon with Orca for the Hauling.

So......with 2 Toons, stick to the symbiotic Hulk/Orca pair. That way your Hulk gets the Orca bonuses which you will not get obviously with the Hulk Only setup. Again the time saved by not running off to dump makes ALL the differennce here.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
9th candle
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#19 - 2011-10-30 04:09:30 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
WHY OH WHY the overlong UberGeek Complicated Answers to a simple question from a guy limited to TWO TOONS ?? Sheesh.

IF you are limited to 2 toons...........

Running back and forth to drop off ore with BOTH Hulks will absolutely eat into any gains from the benefit of the 2nd Hulk. That is a LOT of time spent moving instead of mining with the 2 Hulks. So, no benefit here unless you have a 3rd Toon with Orca for the Hauling.

So......with 2 Toons, stick to the symbiotic Hulk/Orca pair. That way your Hulk gets the Orca bonuses which you will not get obviously with the Hulk Only setup. Again the time saved by not running off to dump makes ALL the differennce here.


Well done! Never mind your out-of-arse claim has been disproved in the [random caps]overlong ubergeek[/random caps] post just above yours, you even managed to contradict yourself. A perfect example why quality threads are hard to come by, there is no point bothering. You remind me of a nutritionist that firmly believes anything you can't pronounce is dangerous to eat.

OP it is a question of what you prefer: 2 hulks for maximum yield and orca for convenience.
I Accidentally YourShip
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#20 - 2011-10-30 05:57:09 UTC  |  Edited by: I Accidentally YourShip
Suki Okiwana wrote:


3.) 2 * max yield hulk, switching to iteron V for hauling:

-iteron V capacity: 49233 m3 (cargohold optimization I and giant secure containers)
-boosted hulk yield: 1961 m3/min
-support hulk yield: 1867 m3/min
-assuming the hauler mines for 60 minutes at a time (my choice back when I did this; less frequent hauling -> better yield but more risk)
-assuming a generous 4 minute round trip to station
-also 4 minutes to switch ships, hulk filled with ore when returning to station

1867 * 60 + 1961 * (60 + 4 + 4x) = 10580 + 49233x

x = 5.5 -> 6 rounds required to deliver ore

1867 * 60 + 1961 * (60 + 4 + 4 * 6) = 284588

284588 / (60 + 4 + 4 * 6) = 3233 m3/min

(This method easily beats the orca even with a bestower.)


I take academic over anecdotal or erroneous any day. Actually having tried all three I got the best of the bunch that is empirical.


Second edit: No I interpreted correctly the first time, you are actually mining for an hour straight, putting these into jet cans as you go? That would never fly in system that isn't completely dead, and I tend to roam systems hunting for unsuspecting Hulks in belts. Can flipping would be an annoyance at the very least with the potential of robbing an entire hour of work.
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