EVE General Discussion

HA Indeed.

Honestly, the feeling I get is that the Goons just want everything that is better to do in high sec made even better to do in Nullsec.

If that is fair, then I guess high sec should get Moon Goo, Killer ratting and plexs, way better exploration, ABC asteroids.

You want equal?

Let's make it really equal.

And PLEASE don't tell me your stations/POS, which are protected by your uncountable minions aren't as safe as high sec operations.

Why?

They raised it once, they saw it did nothing but encouraged peopel to form one man corps. Raise it again, and it does the same.

Higher taxes only starts to be a problem for new players.
It doesn't solve the droping of your corp when there's a wardec, or encourage anyone to join other peoples corps.

I am not saying that the tax rates should not be increased, it is actually quite a good idea to increase the taxes on manufacturing. What I am saying is that I do not know the numbers associated with that magnitude mentioned, and what effect it will have on the money supply.

They aren't as safe as highsec operations.

Unlike highsec, you can drop bubbles and launch bombs on nullsec outposts. And you can drop dreads on POS and reinforce them relatively quickly. That will eat up your fuel and stront and stop any production going on till you rep the tower.

It also costs around 300 mil every 21 days to run a large POS whether you use it or not . Far cheaper to use high sec and just JF it to where we need it.

in fairness there are some slightly more reasonable suggestions over the last few pages. hundreds of millions to use station services is not one of them hehe! Jobs tied to standings might be worthwhile.


in the midst of all this lets not forget: what is the nature of null sec?

null is (was) the wild west. The frontier land. The edge of the galaxy.

Does it not make sense then in all honesty that the best place to trade is within the walls of the fortresses built by our NPC overlords in high sec?

they are established, they have developed police and navies.

In that light in makes complete sense that the goods flow in to empire then flow back out.

In fact Im under the impression that this (pre-jump freight) was part of the deal - living in null requires logistical nouse. Id like to see the days of goods convoys and escorts back - at least its going to produce some fights.


related to null being the wild west perhaps CCP could cement some of the existing infrastructure. Some of those null stations have been there a long, long time. Maybe give a bonus based on how long the station has been 'stable' and add extra slots based on this? IDK, just throwing stuff out there.

Dude, those things were cars!

I think.

This thread seems to have derailed, as expected.

Look, there was a very good thread recently (maybe someone can post a link) with very good suggestions for null tweaks from people that actually KNOW Industry, and not from trolls and forum warriors. I suggest people replying here read that thread before commenting about something you clearly don't understand (some of you are so far off as to be laughable). The suggestions for for TWEAKS, not null buffs, and not high sec nerfs. Don't make suggestions that you know damned well will hurt you and your high sec alts; don't make suggestions without knowing a thing about the logistics involved for nullies (to which I've recently educated myself, trolling boolshite we see here aside). Industry in null CAN be made more lucrative for those living there, but apparently the logistics (and I don't mean hauling) just aren't there right now: I can accept that. Does that make null "broken"? Hardly, any more than Incursions are broken because you can't WIN WIN WIN in a T1 cruiser, and any more than FW being broken because non-FWers are allowed into FW plexes.

Turn on your troll indicators, people, and just ignore the trolls derailing this thread. There's some good discussions possible here, just like in the other thread I mentioned above.

I think there's really no amount of reasonable tax rate that's going to stop people from using highsec industry as the default for nullsec's needs. Some of you posters reading this thread might be wondering why 'highsec industry' keeps factoring into this conversation about nullsec gameplay.

As I mentioned back on page 2, nullsec's main problem is that its design concept is rooted in an decade old, now nonexistant environment where 0.0 is a frontier populated by explorers coming in to extract valuable resources in unknown space populated by pirates and then move back to highsec ('civilized' space) to be sold for great profit.


Nullsec reality does not reflect this concept:

The inhabitants of 0.0 aren't ragtag small gangs of uncivilized explorers. They are standing armies numbering in the thousands that are not only the largest player entities in EVE Online, but the most regimented and coordinated gaming 'clans' of any MMO in existence period.

They aren't exploring 'unknown space', they're dwelling in and attacking very known space whose claim and ownership by sovereign empires are clearly displayed and prominently tracked and reported on.

Despite this reality, infrastructurally, nullsec's manufacturing and building capacities are intrinsically inferior to free highsec industry on every conceivable level. Because when nullsec was designed a decade ago, the thought that ragtag explorers would need tremendous industrial output was never thought of. As a result, it is more costly, more wasteful with nowhere near enough capacity to supply the current ship, ammo and module consumption of present nullsec alliances. Sensibly, in order to get around this limitation and have an advantage over their rivals with greater amounts of weapons produced cheaper and more efficiently, the alliances outsourced said needs to highsec through alt corps and highsec industrialists through supply chains. In addition to material superiority, this arrangement conferred strategic advantages as well; assured that the supply-chain alliances' industrial production would never be threatened in any meaningful way. Before long, any empires trying to have industrialists in their own alliance producing locally in their industrially inferior 0.0 space were driven out, utterly outpaced from a material standpoint by the alliances that treated industrialists as a needless liability that belonged in highsec.

Economic damage is very difficult to inflict when the only ways left to do so are ganking elusive jump freighter logistics and reinforcing tech moons. And defending a handful ships and a reinforced POS is far less hassle then to actively defend a large population of carebears that your alliance relies upon for survival. As the status quo grows increasingly entrenched, fewer groups are finding motivation to do so.

If nullsec was designed to support the gameplay that actually goes on inside it, that is, competing sovereign entities and blocs where the only laws enforced are player-based, fixing industry should be top priority so that 0.0 sovereign empires would actually behave like sovereign empires, with members actively working to feed and fuel their war machines that can be actively disrupted and more conflict, small-scale but relevent conflict, would happen.

But that can't happen if highsec industry is in its current state, with its effectively unlimited (able to supply all regions of space effortlessly), free and 99.95% efficient industrial base. Incentivizing industry in a region is impossible when there's a risk-free, cost-free alternative with unlimited capacity. If there was a way of solving null's problems without touching upon highsec whatsoever, I would be wholly for it. So I advocate a sensible balancing where the goal is buff nullsec industry to the point where people living in 0.0 will be able to supply themselves, while reducing highsec capacity (not 'increasing cost') to the poiint where it will still be able to support its own needs but not be able to effortlessly supply all of New Eden's material consumption.