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Anonymity For CSM: Common Sense And Safety.

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Trebor Daehdoow
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2013-01-30 19:47:35 UTC
Snow Axe wrote:
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
If it is truly your position that a candidates RL experience and qualifications are irrelevant to the question of whether or not they will be an effective CSM, then I fear you will have great difficulty convincing CCP Xhagen of the merits of your case.

So you're saying it's impossible to tell people what you do without having your first and last name published?

It is shocking, I know, and hard to believe, but I have it on reliable authority that anonymous people on the Internet have been known to misrepresent their qualifications.

Private Citizen • CSM in recovery
Seleene
Body Count Inc.
Mercenary Coalition
#42 - 2013-01-30 19:49:10 UTC
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
Snow Axe wrote:
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
If it is truly your position that a candidates RL experience and qualifications are irrelevant to the question of whether or not they will be an effective CSM, then I fear you will have great difficulty convincing CCP Xhagen of the merits of your case.

So you're saying it's impossible to tell people what you do without having your first and last name published?

It is shocking, I know, and hard to believe, but I have it on reliable authority that anonymous people on the Internet have been known to misrepresent their qualifications.


Damnit, I just bought this Sarcasm Meter!!! Now I have to get another one!! Evil

2004-2008: Mercenary Coalition Boss

2007-2010: CCP Game Designer | 2011-2013: CSM6 Delegate & CSM7 Chairman

2011-2015: Pandemic Legionnaire

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Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#43 - 2013-01-30 19:51:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Snow Axe
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
It is shocking, I know, and hard to believe, but I have it on reliable authority that anonymous people on the Internet have been known to misrepresent their qualifications.


Right, and the only solution you can think of to this is to publish RL information and encourage the playerbase to go stalking to verify if their claims are true?

Besides, whether or not a voter believes your claims is your problem, not CCP's. If the only way you can think to convince voters to vote for you is to give up your RL identity and show off your profession, then that's your choice to make. Emphasis on *your* choice, not CCP's.

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["
Trebor Daehdoow
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#44 - 2013-01-30 20:29:19 UTC
Snow Axe wrote:
Right, and the only solution you can think of to this is to publish RL information and encourage the playerbase to go stalking to verify if their claims are true?

So verifying someone's resume is stalking, is it? I enjoy forum performance art as much as anyone, but I rather think you've taken a left turn into the Theatre of the Absurd.

That said, I am sure that CCP Xhagen will find your positions interesting reading when he graces us with his polite but looming presence. I look forward to reading his response.

Private Citizen • CSM in recovery
Winterblink
#45 - 2013-01-30 20:35:09 UTC
Someone's RL identity has as much bearing on whether they can adequately represent the EVE population as their choice of boxers, briefs, or panties. My choice is still going to boil down to whether they have a good grasp of fundamental EVE mechanics, and that they can communicate effectively with the community, translating those desires into constructive feedback to CCP -- even if those desires contradict their own personal ones.

warp drive active
Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#46 - 2013-01-30 20:49:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Snow Axe
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
So verifying someone's resume is stalking, is it? I enjoy forum performance art as much as anyone, but I rather think you've taken a left turn into the Theatre of the Absurd.

That said, I am sure that CCP Xhagen will find your positions interesting reading when he graces us with his polite but looming presence. I look forward to reading his response.


I'm glad you mentioned the resume thing: I actually peeked back at the candidacy threads of all y'all that were elected. A whopping 4 of 14 of you made any reference at all to your RL selves, and only yourself and Seleene went into any detail (Two Step just briefly mentioned his name and occupation, and Meissa just made a not-detailed mention of past jobs he's had as a developer). Even among those of you who released RL information, only Seleene's was any significant part of what they ran on (understandable given he was a former CCP dev). I don't think this whole "verifying RL credentials" thing is anywhere near as important as you're making it out to be.

Can it be a benefit? Absolutely. It should also be the candidate's choice whether they choose to use that to their advantage in an election or not. All this talk of CCP appreciating the value of RL credentials is irrelevant, as they have no say in choosing who actually gets elected (and if they wanted to start vetting RL credentials for candidates, they could still do this themselves without releasing the information to the playerbase).

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
#47 - 2013-01-30 20:50:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Issler Dainze
Scooter McCabe wrote:


Stuff



So for a point of reference having gone through this a number of times, the only time it has ever come up for me was shortly after the Goons war dec-ed us when I was elected to CSM 7 I did have a goon follow me around in game sharing his pretty detailed knowledge of my home and current pet, implying that this could cross into RL consequences for me.

And to be clear I believe this was a result of the individual in question doing this on their own and not something the goons directed him to do.

I pretty much ignored it as more asshatery. No one else in Eve has let my RL identity affect me in any way.

So mostly I just chalk it up to one of the commitments you have to make to try and help make Eve a better place as part of the CSM.

Sorry if this would keep some good candidates from running for the CSM, but if you participate in ANY social sites like facebook for example I expect you are at greater risk than running for CSM creates.

Issler
Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#48 - 2013-01-30 20:55:27 UTC
Issler Dainze wrote:
So for a point of reference having gone through this a number of times, the only time it has ever come up for me was shortly after the Goons war dec-ed us when I was elected to CSM 7 I did have a goon follow me around in game sharing his pretty detailed knowledge of my home and current pet, implying that this could cross into RL consequences for me.


Right, and the only reason this happened is because CCP released your name when you became a candidate. Without that, there's nothing to go on that you yourself don't volunteer (and if you do volunteer it, then it's your own problem).

If CCP had any good reason to publish your name, then you're right, this would be an unfortunate consequence. What we're saying is that they DON'T have a good reason to release it, and thus shouldn't. Things like this happening to you or anyone else are simply reinforcing that.

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["
Frying Doom
#49 - 2013-01-30 21:19:24 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
I am naturally against this.

As a mentally deranged individual, how am I supposed to stalk members of the CSM if their real names are not given?

But seriously it is one of those things where you know it is only a matter of time before someone in the game dislikes the CSMs ideas so much that someone is murdered.


What the **** dude, seriously?

Apparently Hans you have either led a sheltered life or you overstimate the ability of the human mind.

I personally would not risk the probability of their being a fractured mind in a group of people as large as EvE.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Scooter McCabe
Thunderwaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#50 - 2013-01-30 21:29:57 UTC
Issler Dainze wrote:
Scooter McCabe wrote:


Stuff



So for a point of reference having gone through this a number of times, the only time it has ever come up for me was shortly after the Goons war dec-ed us when I was elected to CSM 7 I did have a goon follow me around in game sharing his pretty detailed knowledge of my home and current pet, implying that this could cross into RL consequences for me.

And to be clear I believe this was a result of the individual in question doing this on their own and not something the goons directed him to do.

I pretty much ignored it as more asshatery. No one else in Eve has let my RL identity affect me in any way.

So mostly I just chalk it up to one of the commitments you have to make to try and help make Eve a better place as part of the CSM.

Sorry if this would keep some good candidates from running for the CSM, but if you participate in ANY social sites like facebook for example I expect you are at greater risk than running for CSM creates.

Issler


Your information should not be public, and I am glad it was just a case of asshatery. But what if it didn't just end there? You talk about commitments but is CCP and the CSM really committed to player safety and representing the community at large when you have a number of CSM members talking like this? You'll argue about election systems because community representation and the player base is important to you, this issue also goes to the heart of representing the community and looking out for the player base.

Oh and on social sites like Facebook you can control who see's your profile and what they can see on it. Disclosure of that information is up to the user not the company. Hey maybe CCP and the CSM can at least go half way and give CSM members the option to choose privacy or full disclosure?

Right now I am only hearing specious arguments for full disclosure. The fact that its coming from the CSM who are supposed to be on guard for specious arguments for how things are done in the game is troubling.
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
#51 - 2013-01-30 22:31:51 UTC
Scooter McCabe wrote:
Issler Dainze wrote:
Scooter McCabe wrote:


Stuff



So for a point of reference having gone through this a number of times, the only time it has ever come up for me was shortly after the Goons war dec-ed us when I was elected to CSM 7 I did have a goon follow me around in game sharing his pretty detailed knowledge of my home and current pet, implying that this could cross into RL consequences for me.

And to be clear I believe this was a result of the individual in question doing this on their own and not something the goons directed him to do.

I pretty much ignored it as more asshatery. No one else in Eve has let my RL identity affect me in any way.

So mostly I just chalk it up to one of the commitments you have to make to try and help make Eve a better place as part of the CSM.

Sorry if this would keep some good candidates from running for the CSM, but if you participate in ANY social sites like facebook for example I expect you are at greater risk than running for CSM creates.

Issler


Your information should not be public, and I am glad it was just a case of asshatery. But what if it didn't just end there? You talk about commitments but is CCP and the CSM really committed to player safety and representing the community at large when you have a number of CSM members talking like this? You'll argue about election systems because community representation and the player base is important to you, this issue also goes to the heart of representing the community and looking out for the player base.

Oh and on social sites like Facebook you can control who see's your profile and what they can see on it. Disclosure of that information is up to the user not the company. Hey maybe CCP and the CSM can at least go half way and give CSM members the option to choose privacy or full disclosure?

Right now I am only hearing specious arguments for full disclosure. The fact that its coming from the CSM who are supposed to be on guard for specious arguments for how things are done in the game is troubling.


I should be clear that I was offering my thoughts as having been directly involved in the situation. Just my opinion, in the end I decided I was OK with it so I can't claim to be an advocate for driving a change in policy.

I totally can understand folks finding issues with the policy. I would be very interested in hearing from folks with standing in the community that believe the disclosure is what prevents them from running for the CSM.

So again, just sharing what I thought about it and how it has affected me. Not advocating a position either way.

Issler
Scooter McCabe
Thunderwaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#52 - 2013-01-30 22:44:35 UTC
Issler Dainze wrote:


I totally can understand folks finding issues with the policy. I would be very interested in hearing from folks with standing in the community that believe the disclosure is what prevents them from running for the CSM.

Issler


What do you mean by "folks with standing in this community?" I assume your not trying to sound elitist or suggest their are only certain sections of "this community" you care to represent or work with.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#53 - 2013-01-30 23:26:23 UTC  |  Edited by: La Nariz
Seleene wrote:
I don't care what you call yourself in the mirror, if I meet you in person then I am going to call you Noah or Greg or Robert or Alex or Josh or whatever your actual name is. If you're going to represent a real community about a real video game that has real problems, you should probably expect that the company will want you to use your real name too. v0v


You are literally ******** if you think being an unpaid volunteer video game consultant should mean you give up your own personal safety.

E: Perfect example below:

Issler Dainze wrote:

So for a point of reference having gone through this a number of times, the only time it has ever come up for me was shortly after the Goons war dec-ed us when I was elected to CSM 7 I did have a goon follow me around in game sharing his pretty detailed knowledge of my home and current pet, implying that this could cross into RL consequences for me.


Issler was only subjected to this because her personal information was made public.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
Rengerel en Distel
#54 - 2013-01-30 23:28:39 UTC
I do find it heartening that in just a short years time, a group of people that sought to make a player kill himself because it'd be funny to them if someone took the game that seriously, is now spearheading a player safety campaign. It doesn't come across as self-serving in any way that they perhaps don't want their in game asshattery to effect their real lives. After seeing what happened to that reddit guy after he got outed, I guess it makes sense.

It still comes down to it that running for CSM is a choice, a choice with consequences. If you're not happy with those consequences, it's entirely your choice not to run. CCP gets enough candidates now without having to change their rules, so unless that changes, they will probably keep with their rules as is.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
Two step
Aperture Harmonics
#55 - 2013-01-30 23:39:25 UTC
Scooter McCabe wrote:


Your information should not be public, and I am glad it was just a case of asshatery. But what if it didn't just end there? You talk about commitments but is CCP and the CSM really committed to player safety and representing the community at large when you have a number of CSM members talking like this? You'll argue about election systems because community representation and the player base is important to you, this issue also goes to the heart of representing the community and looking out for the player base.

Oh and on social sites like Facebook you can control who see's your profile and what they can see on it. Disclosure of that information is up to the user not the company. Hey maybe CCP and the CSM can at least go half way and give CSM members the option to choose privacy or full disclosure?

Right now I am only hearing specious arguments for full disclosure. The fact that its coming from the CSM who are supposed to be on guard for specious arguments for how things are done in the game is troubling.


As I said, and you ignored before, I argued during the very summit session you are talking about that there is no reason to disclose player names. I don't think it acts as a real deterrent, especially for people with common names. If some dude named John Smith runs for CSM, he can be all the ******* he wants to be without any real conseqences. Those of us with unique names don't get that, and it isn't fair or needed.

CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
Scooter McCabe
Thunderwaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#56 - 2013-01-30 23:42:06 UTC
Two step wrote:
Scooter McCabe wrote:


Your information should not be public, and I am glad it was just a case of asshatery. But what if it didn't just end there? You talk about commitments but is CCP and the CSM really committed to player safety and representing the community at large when you have a number of CSM members talking like this? You'll argue about election systems because community representation and the player base is important to you, this issue also goes to the heart of representing the community and looking out for the player base.

Oh and on social sites like Facebook you can control who see's your profile and what they can see on it. Disclosure of that information is up to the user not the company. Hey maybe CCP and the CSM can at least go half way and give CSM members the option to choose privacy or full disclosure?

Right now I am only hearing specious arguments for full disclosure. The fact that its coming from the CSM who are supposed to be on guard for specious arguments for how things are done in the game is troubling.


As I said, and you ignored before, I argued during the very summit session you are talking about that there is no reason to disclose player names. I don't think it acts as a real deterrent, especially for people with common names. If some dude named John Smith runs for CSM, he can be all the ******* he wants to be without any real conseqences. Those of us with unique names don't get that, and it isn't fair or needed.


Okay so do you want to publicly call out the rest of the CSM and CCP here in this thread and help me push for change or do you want to sit on the sideline?
Brunaburh
Ever Vigilant Fountain Defenders
#57 - 2013-01-31 04:48:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Brunaburh
Scooter McCabe wrote:
Callduron wrote:
Is this an effort to let Mittens run again on an alt?


You have to run with your main character just like everyone does now. Before you dazzle us with another pithy post keep in mind CCP knows your account information and who your main is, and requires players to already declare their main character. Does that make sense or do you want to just put on the tinfoil hat now and start posting conspiracy theories?


Sorry, I'm calling bull**** on this.

How do you justify which character is your main?

As many long-time EVE players have 2,3 4 or 14 accounts, which one is your main?

I have four accounts, and post in the forums with all of them, in different ways. Some of those accounts I even post on the 2nd and third slot character.

Which one is my main?

Is it the Titan pilot I bought off of the bazaar, because it has the most SP?
Is it the hisec mission runner I use to fund my PvP?
Is it the trader I have parked in Jita buying and selling mods all day long?
Is it the space priest I bring on big fleet ops in null sec?
Is it the carrier pilot who taxis my stuff all over new eden?
Is it the PI alt who does nothing but process Electrolytes?
Is it the losec pirate/ganker with -9.5 sec status?

All of those characters above, and the ones I didn't list, can come and go as they please. Sure, I could forge an identity around a character, and spend time and energy developing the awareness of that character across the forums and the other out of game tools like twitter. And if that identity gets elected, and then booted, or slacks off horridly, what stops me from doing it all over with another character on another account?

The only singular truth to who I am (and I certainly am not running for CSM) is my identity in real life. And if I am supposed to represent players in some fashion on the CSM, they deserve to know they aren't electing Trebor's industry alt.

oh, and I guess it's unclear that I'm NOT Trebor's industry alt.
Scooter McCabe
Thunderwaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#58 - 2013-01-31 05:04:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Scooter McCabe
Brunaburh wrote:
Scooter McCabe wrote:
Callduron wrote:
Is this an effort to let Mittens run again on an alt?


You have to run with your main character just like everyone does now. Before you dazzle us with another pithy post keep in mind CCP knows your account information and who your main is, and requires players to already declare their main character. Does that make sense or do you want to just put on the tinfoil hat now and start posting conspiracy theories?


Sorry, I'm calling bull**** on this.

How do you justify which character is your main?

As many long-time EVE players have 2,3 4 or 14 accounts, which one is your main?

I have four accounts, and post in the forums with all of them, in different ways. Some of those accounts I even post on the 2nd and third slot character.

Which one is my main?

Is it the Titan pilot I bought off of the bazaar, because it has the most SP?
Is it the hisec mission runner I use to fund my PvP?
Is it the trader I have parked in Jita buying and selling mods all day long?
Is it the space priest I bring on big fleet ops in null sec?
Is it the carrier pilot who taxis my stuff all over new eden?
Is it the PI alt who does nothing but process Electrolytes?
Is it the losec pirate/ganker with -9.5 sec status?

All of those characters above, and the ones I didn't list, can come and go as they please. Sure, I could forge an identity around a character, and spend time and energy developing the awareness of that character across the forums and the other out of game tools like twitter. And if that identity gets elected, and then booted, or slacks off horridly, what stops me from doing it all over with another character on another account?

The only singular truth to who I am (and I certainly am not running for CSM) is my identity in real life. And if I am supposed to represent players in some fashion on the CSM, they deserve to know they aren't electing Trebor's industry alt.

oh, and I guess it's unclear that I'm NOT Trebor's industry alt.


Person gets booted from the CSM they can't come back so that argument is moot. Slacks off horridly, someone is going to take the time to run just to slack off? Nice try but going through CCP's vetting process and getting that passport, travel to Iceland for the purpose of work is to much effort. And your right people deserve to know they are not elected an alt, so the candidates can and must declare their alts. So you still have your disclosure of who your electing without having to know their real name.

At the end of the day you can still be accountable to your voters and CCP. I await your counter argument and it doesn't matter to me what character you post with.
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#59 - 2013-01-31 05:42:58 UTC
^ But what if the mittani wore a mustache, when he went to visit in Iceland for summits.

You almost thought of everything.

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne
Seleene
Body Count Inc.
Mercenary Coalition
#60 - 2013-01-31 06:11:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Seleene
La Nariz wrote:
Seleene wrote:
I don't care what you call yourself in the mirror, if I meet you in person then I am going to call you Noah or Greg or Robert or Alex or Josh or whatever your actual name is. If you're going to represent a real community about a real video game that has real problems, you should probably expect that the company will want you to use your real name too. v0v


You are literally ******** if you think being an unpaid volunteer video game consultant should mean you give up your own personal safety.


But that's just the thing - I've never felt like my personal safety was at stake over this video game. The idea that someone would be that deranged is more ****** than anything IMO. This feels like a strange FOX News segment tbh, where the other side literally starts to pull out an axe to make their point... Shocked

2004-2008: Mercenary Coalition Boss

2007-2010: CCP Game Designer | 2011-2013: CSM6 Delegate & CSM7 Chairman

2011-2015: Pandemic Legionnaire

2015- : Mercenary Coalition Boss

Follow Seleene on Twitter!