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I use to hate CCP for making this game more casual but
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Inquisitor Kitchner
The Executives
#21 - 2013-01-30 10:54:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Inquisitor Kitchner
There is a famous engineering related quote "You're not finished when you have nothing left to add, it's when you have nothnig left to take away".

The same principle applies to a lot of stuff in EVE.

The aim of CCP should, in my opinion, be to remove as much of the boring, monotonous or overly complex things as possible, without that effecting the game.

So for example having to sped so much time setting up a POS is stupid, forcing you to spend that time is ridiculous and adds nothing to the game (as unless someone probes you down the odds of them stumbling onto you is next to none). You could easily remove the time taken to set up guns etc by changing the way POSes work and it wouldn't detract from the way POSes actually work.

Likewise the need to manually update your clone every time you die adds literally nothing to the game but is frustrating as hell. Sure occasionally someone loses Fleet Command V or something, but unless you're DBRB it's not very often. Why not just have an option to automatically upgrade to the level you need when you die? (Assuming you have the money).

However removing something like "travel time" effects the game massively, suddenly everyone can be anywhere at once, imagine the power the CFC/HBC would have if it could project power EASILY all over New Eden.

TL;DR Yes remove annoying features and hoops you need to jump through which add nothing to the game play, keep the hoops and complexities needed for the gameplay to be good.

"If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared." - Niccolo Machiavelli
Turelus
Utassi Security
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#22 - 2013-01-30 11:15:48 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
There's nothing wrong with casual play or supporting casual play as long as it doesn't mean "special treatment" or "exemption from risk". Empire should be for casuals, not carebears.

This.
If they want to make tools and access easier that's fine, if they want to add more content to attract non PVP minded people that's fine.
If they suddenly start removing the freedom or "sand box" from EVE I will complain.

Turelus CEO Utassi Security
Kalle Demos
Ironic Corp Name
#23 - 2013-01-30 11:49:48 UTC
Inquisitor Kitchner wrote:

The aim of CCP should, in my opinion, be to remove as much of the boring, monotonous or overly complex things as possible, without that effecting the game.


Didnt they try this and got accused of making the game too casual and too easy?
Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
#24 - 2013-01-30 12:05:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Mara Pahrdi
Kalle Demos wrote:
I have about 18 hours a week spare for games. That isnt a lot but it isnt a small amount, while there is a lot of things to do in EVE a lot of time spent is doing things no one seems to like anyway, I truly feel this game is already casual IF we removed these things.

...

InB4 "WoW is that way"

18 hours a week is more than enough to see the endgame in WoW. It is sufficient time to reach a satisfactory level in PvP. Also many decent progress raiding guilds manage to get along with a 3 raid attendance. But you have to specialize, to really be successful in what you are doing.

With the vast diversity in the game, one of the biggest issues in EVE is to find out for yourself what you like best and are really good in, specialize in it and then find a decent group, that needs and supports you doing that. Once you've found that sweet spot in the game, I don't think that EVE is much different compared to WoW.

Remove standings and insurance.
Jint Hikaru
OffWorld Exploration Inc
#25 - 2013-01-30 12:13:56 UTC
Inquisitor Kitchner wrote:

The aim of CCP should, in my opinion, be to remove as much of the boring, monotonous or overly complex things as possible, without that effecting the game.

So for example having to sped so much time setting up a POS is stupid, forcing you to spend that time is ridiculous and adds nothing to the game (as unless someone probes you down the odds of them stumbling onto you is next to none). You could easily remove the time taken to set up guns etc by changing the way POSes work and it wouldn't detract from the way POSes actually work.


You may think its 'Stupid', but ask a sov holder how he would feel about quick setup POSs when he is trying to deffend against another alliance trying to setup POS staging posts in his space....

Jint Hikaru - Miner / Salvager / Explorer / SpaceBum In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#26 - 2013-01-30 13:07:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcanis
Jint Hikaru wrote:
Inquisitor Kitchner wrote:

The aim of CCP should, in my opinion, be to remove as much of the boring, monotonous or overly complex things as possible, without that effecting the game.

So for example having to sped so much time setting up a POS is stupid, forcing you to spend that time is ridiculous and adds nothing to the game (as unless someone probes you down the odds of them stumbling onto you is next to none). You could easily remove the time taken to set up guns etc by changing the way POSes work and it wouldn't detract from the way POSes actually work.


You may think its 'Stupid', but ask a sov holder how he would feel about quick setup POSs when he is trying to deffend against another alliance trying to setup POS staging posts in his space....


We'd be OK with it, I think. People in 0.0 tend to spend much more time interacting with their own POS than shooting other peoples.

EDIT: However it is good that you are thinking about secondary consequences.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
carshia
Planetary Acquisitions and Wardec Group
#27 - 2013-01-30 13:15:23 UTC
Kalle Demos wrote:

2. Travel time, popular places seem to be trade hubs and FW systems, rest of EVE is either dead or afk (unless its a Sunday), surely CCP and players dont 'like' hundreds of systems being dead.


I'm sorry but as a casual player i disagree with this point 100%
Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#28 - 2013-01-30 13:20:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternum Praetorian
Just ignore Malcanis like the rest of us do. He is pro-EVE and lacks creative imagination. Most everything in life can be dramatically improved upon given enough time, wisdom and study.

The "pro-eve-in-it's-current-state-fanboys" seem to have no concept of this.





Now don't get mad Malcanis... P

[center]The EVE Gateway Blog[/center] [center]One Of EVE Online's Ultimate Resources[/center]
Inquisitor Kitchner
The Executives
#29 - 2013-01-30 13:26:56 UTC
Jint Hikaru wrote:


You may think its 'Stupid', but ask a sov holder how he would feel about quick setup POSs when he is trying to deffend against another alliance trying to setup POS staging posts in his space....



As someone in a Sov Holding alliance the reality is that regardless of the time unless it takes a ridiculously long time someone is more then capable of setting up a POS where you don't want them too, we aren't robots and have to sleep sometime you know!

The fact is that even if you keep the "online" time, arranging guns etc is a pain in the arse. There's pretty much only one good way to arrange guns and nearly everyone does it that way. So a smarter system would be to essentially "fit" the guns to the POS and have them as separate targets with HP etc, but just a system that doesn't involve you dragging guns round a crap UI.

Basically any change that removes the literal :effort: to do something which everyone actually does anyway and doesnt really add much by them doing it instead of it being automated/easier should be made automated/easier (e.g. clone upgrading, everyone upgrades their clones and on the few occasions someone forgets it just pisses people off without really doing much long term damage).

Whereas say having some sort of invulnerable freighter (or a super fast high sec jump drive using one) removes a lot of hassle for a set group of players, but ultimately actually makes them also significantly safer.

"If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared." - Niccolo Machiavelli
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#30 - 2013-01-30 13:47:20 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Jake Warbird wrote:
The issue is hisec and casual players are most often confused with entitled whiners who only want what's best for them. I hardly log on Eve at all because I have lots of RL **** to deal with atm. But Eve will never be boring for me.


"Good" casual: I only get a few hours a week and I can't always predict when they're going to be. Thus I need things like well stocked market hubs and freedom from structure timers in order to maximise the playtime I get. I accept that there are going to be aspect s of the game that are not suitable for me.

"Bad" casual: I only get a few hours a week and I can't always predict when they're going to be. Thus I need the whole game to be restructured around my needs, regardless of its impact on other playstyles, because no-one should be allowed to do things I can't (live in sov 0.0, own Titans, have awesome KB stats) just because they commit more time and attention and effort than I'm willing to.


Even in Jest you hit at a basic truth lol. I'm going to nominate you for CSM and......

*looks around at "Mal for CSM sigs everywhere"

....Well damn, i'm late to the party AGAIN...


I don't think there are a lot of "bad casuals" in game, just on there forums.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#31 - 2013-01-30 13:50:07 UTC
Jake Warbird wrote:
The issue is hisec and casual players are most often confused with entitled whiners who only want what's best for them. I hardly log on Eve at all because I have lots of RL **** to deal with atm. But Eve will never be boring for me.


This is why you're my favorite casual , unlike a few others, you actually GET that other people exist lol. You rock Jake, we should form an Alliance called "League of Gentlemen who don't think the entire universe owes us something and revolves around our needs".

Well, maybe not, the Alliance ticker would be a mess, but you get the picture.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#32 - 2013-01-30 13:52:36 UTC
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
Just ignore Malcanis like the rest of us do. He is pro-EVE and lacks creative imagination. Most everything in life can be dramatically improved upon given enough time, wisdom and study.

The "pro-eve-in-it's-current-state-fanboys" seem to have no concept of this.





Now don't get mad Malcanis... P


So wait, it's somehow wrong to like a thing the way it actually is rather than "how it could be one day"?

If you don't care for EVE, why play. Why is their a single "Anti-EVE" player...playing EVE? WTF is wrong you you types?
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#33 - 2013-01-30 13:58:17 UTC
Kalle Demos wrote:
Now that I have a life, its hard to dedicate a lot of time to a game, now before you guys complain and rage, let me break down what I mean.

I have about 18 hours a week spare for games. That isnt a lot but it isnt a small amount...



18hours in a week is huge !!
It's 18h of your life you're not be getting back for many important things you haven't done for this time.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#34 - 2013-01-30 14:09:27 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Jake Warbird wrote:
The issue is hisec and casual players are most often confused with entitled whiners who only want what's best for them. I hardly log on Eve at all because I have lots of RL **** to deal with atm. But Eve will never be boring for me.


"Good" casual: I only get a few hours a week and I can't always predict when they're going to be. Thus I need things like well stocked market hubs and freedom from structure timers in order to maximise the playtime I get. I accept that there are going to be aspect s of the game that are not suitable for me.

"Bad" casual: I only get a few hours a week and I can't always predict when they're going to be. Thus I need the whole game to be restructured around my needs, regardless of its impact on other playstyles, because no-one should be allowed to do things I can't (live in sov 0.0, own Titans, have awesome KB stats) just because they commit more time and attention and effort than I'm willing to.


Tsk tsk, you were almost right until you showed your true colors. Roll

It's not a matter of "want", but of "can".

Casual friendly gameplay and solo gameplay are tightly knit as finding people is time consuming = not suitable for casual gaming.

And EVE is seriously lacking in that aspect, which is amusing when CCP Unifex tells us what people actually DOES in EVE. Just read my signature.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#35 - 2013-01-30 14:14:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
Jenn aSide wrote:
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
Just ignore Malcanis like the rest of us do. He is pro-EVE and lacks creative imagination. Most everything in life can be dramatically improved upon given enough time, wisdom and study.

The "pro-eve-in-it's-current-state-fanboys" seem to have no concept of this.





Now don't get mad Malcanis... P


So wait, it's somehow wrong to like a thing the way it actually is rather than "how it could be one day"?

If you don't care for EVE, why play. Why is their a single "Anti-EVE" player...playing EVE? WTF is wrong you you types?


I hope you don't get brain damage if I tell you that EVE has been changing "the way it actually is" since 2003, and the dedicated effort of not changing that since the Incarna debacle has caused an interesting -albeit ominous- trend in server population.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#36 - 2013-01-30 14:43:34 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Jake Warbird wrote:
The issue is hisec and casual players are most often confused with entitled whiners who only want what's best for them. I hardly log on Eve at all because I have lots of RL **** to deal with atm. But Eve will never be boring for me.


"Good" casual: I only get a few hours a week and I can't always predict when they're going to be. Thus I need things like well stocked market hubs and freedom from structure timers in order to maximise the playtime I get. I accept that there are going to be aspect s of the game that are not suitable for me.

"Bad" casual: I only get a few hours a week and I can't always predict when they're going to be. Thus I need the whole game to be restructured around my needs, regardless of its impact on other playstyles, because no-one should be allowed to do things I can't (live in sov 0.0, own Titans, have awesome KB stats) just because they commit more time and attention and effort than I'm willing to.


Tsk tsk, you were almost right until you showed your true colors. Roll

It's not a matter of "want", but of "can".

Casual friendly gameplay and solo gameplay are tightly knit as finding people is time consuming = not suitable for casual gaming.

And EVE is seriously lacking in that aspect, which is amusing when CCP Unifex tells us what people actually DOES in EVE. Just read my signature.


And again, that's what NPC space brings to the table: the option to engage with the game without needing to heavily invest in co-operation and time intensive gameplay.

I said right at the start of the thread: I'm not against casual players. I wrote an entire manifesto based on the idea that we should structure Empire around casual players. I just fail to see the need to remove the option for people who aren't casual players to have the ability to express that commitment and achieve more in game if that's what they enjoy.

What I'm seeing in the OP is that he has come to appreciate being a casual player (this part is just fine) but also that he has come to despise non casual players and thinks that they shouldn't be rewarded for putting more commitment in than he does, and that CCP shouldn't cater to them (this part is very bad).

EVE is big. It's big enough to comfortably contain niches for casuals and hardcores together in the same game on the same server. The casuals can even quite viably engage in hardcore activities if they're willing to accept some compromises like being part of a large group which is organised and maintained by some very hardcore players indeed.

So why the hatred for those "hardcores"? Why the need to give them Othering lablels like "unemployed" "socially inept" or whatever? Is it just because people can't imagine a discussion about EVE that doesn't involve taking sides and engaging with the Others in any way except adversarially?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#37 - 2013-01-30 14:47:40 UTC
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
Just ignore Malcanis like the rest of us do. He is pro-EVE and lacks creative imagination. Most everything in life can be dramatically improved upon given enough time, wisdom and study.

The "pro-eve-in-it's-current-state-fanboys" seem to have no concept of this.





Now don't get mad Malcanis... P



There's no disguising my jealousy of your reputation and influence.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
MadMuppet
Critical Mass Inc
#38 - 2013-01-30 15:03:40 UTC
I am a casual player, and my definition of casual is that I only play a few times a week for 1-5 hours per session max. Looking at your three points from my perspective:

1. POS setup is much faster now than it used to be. 15 minutes to bring up a tower and everything else goes up in a few seconds (we'll call it 1 minute per module), so you can have a POS up in an hour. I think that is reasonable. When you consider that you are effectively building a 24hr 'safe zone' in space if you have the Stront, taking 15-60 minutes to create it is a reasonable mechanic in my eyes. An enemy has to be on the ball to summon a response in 15 minutes to stop you.

2. Travel time does suck, and some areas are fairly empty (some of us like it out there), but if they shortened travel time more it would negatively affect the game in terms of the market (faster resupply, better supply) and travel time is also a mechanic for others to run you down. You come to realize that you either need to have a couple fleets of ships with jump clones or you drink three pints, grab your towel, and start travelling across the system. Personally I think some travel is too fast already (jump bridges), by that is just my opinion from the sidelines as I don't actually use the mechanic.

3. I don't have experience in SOV warfare directly, but having been on a couple 'tower shoots' I agree that it sucks, but nobody has come up with a viable alternative yet for the game mechanics. If you make it faster you punish those players that cannot be on every day for hours. This is a limitation of the gameplay that I have to accept because I simply do not have the time for it. Any change made to 'improve' things for the casual players is going to be a huge bonus to the hardcore players.

This message brought to you by Experience(tm). When common sense fails you, experience will come to the rescue. Experience(tm) from the makers of CONCORD.

"If you are part of the problem, you will be nerfed." -MadMuppet
Spurty
#39 - 2013-01-30 15:13:06 UTC
Curiously, I got into eve when my sons were babies.

Having to wake up at 3am wasn't very hard when you're feeding a pewping hot water bottle.

Now they have grown up, I'm taking them to school or picking up during peek roam times.

Love that I can still tag along even if its (the fight)15 jumps away in a BS as so much of null I'd deader than a dead thing

RF timers and dumb as a box of frogs HP on structures make caring about having any influence over the universe, a very special kind of stoopid for small (under 1,000) groups

Shame. Game loses something here. Hardcore != braindead player

There are good ships,

And wood ships,

And ships that sail the sea

But the best ships are Spaceships

Built by CCP
Ginger Barbarella
#40 - 2013-01-30 15:21:02 UTC
OP, weren't you banned for a short time for posting non-sense crap like this before?? Cuz, yer post is full of fail (even tho everyone knows you're just trolling).

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac