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Rebuttal: Nerf Without Cause: Jump Drives

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RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#441 - 2013-01-30 05:40:27 UTC
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
The US, today, represents just a small percentage of the human beings on this Earth, but we cast a pretty long shadow, despite being a relatively small group.

The CFC, today, represents just a small percentage of the players in this game, but they cast a pretty long shadow, despite being a relatively small group.

See what I did there? By the way, a large part of the United States' long shadow is because of our 10 Supercarriers which can, as part of their Carrier Strike Groups can be projecting power anywhere in the world in under 48 hours. Given the different timescales that RL warfare and EVE warfare operate on, that's probably faster than anyone in EVE can muster such an overwhelming force. Also ICBMs, which can unstoppably (so far) strike (and probably cripple) anywhere in the world in under 90 minutes.

Oh, and at a population of 350 million people (3rd biggest population in the world), you don't get to use "The United States" as a template for "A small group in EVE."

Quote:
I'll tell you what, though. If you love being able to travel across multiple systems instantaneously, and think that only makes the game better, then surely you would support a buff to jump drives and the inclusion of such "progressive" technology into more ships, especially more subcapitals. Sound good?


Saying that nerfing something would be bad != Saying that buffing it would be good.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
#442 - 2013-01-30 07:11:59 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
10 Supercarriers which can, as part of their Carrier Strike Groups can be projecting power anywhere in the world in under 48 hours. Given the different timescales that RL warfare and EVE warfare operate on, that's probably faster than anyone in EVE can muster such an overwhelming force.


Yeah, it would take other countries a long time to get their supercarriers into contact because they would have to, uhhhhh . . . build them. Do you see how your analogy is slightly off? Also, even today, we're not going to put all of our battlegroups in one spot in the blink of an eye. Part of that is because there are actually threats in the world to those carriers. Even just a dude in a speedboat COULD conceivable sink a carrier. (Navy SEALS sure seem to think so.) Part of that is due to the factors of motion, time, and space, which we mitigate by stationing battlegroups around the world, close to the area they might have to respond to. Now, you know that's significantly different from capitals in EVE Online.

RubyPorto wrote:
you don't get to use "The United States" as a template for "A small group in EVE."


314,000,000/7,000,000,000 = 0.04857 . . .

4.9%, would you call that a BIG percentage or would you call that a SMALL percentage? I'm not really sure what your point is in arguing this.

RubyPorto wrote:
Saying that nerfing something would be bad != Saying that buffing it would be good.


Are you or are you not saying that jump drives are good for the game? Get your story straight. If they are good for the game, give them to everyone. If they're bad for the game, maybe they need nerfed. The third alternative, of course, is that they are perfectly balanced. Go ahead and make THAT assertion.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#443 - 2013-01-30 07:23:39 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
I assert that jump drives will be balanced after Retribution 1.1.
Where, incidentally, a specific class of ship is getting a buff to its jump drive.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#444 - 2013-01-30 07:26:01 UTC
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
10 Supercarriers which can, as part of their Carrier Strike Groups can be projecting power anywhere in the world in under 48 hours. Given the different timescales that RL warfare and EVE warfare operate on, that's probably faster than anyone in EVE can muster such an overwhelming force.


Yeah, it would take other countries a long time to get their supercarriers into contact because they would have to, uhhhhh . . . build them. Do you see how your analogy is slightly off? Also, even today, we're not going to put all of our battlegroups in one spot in the blink of an eye. Part of that is because there are actually threats in the world to those carriers. Even just a dude in a speedboat COULD conceivable sink a carrier. (Navy SEALS sure seem to think so.) Part of that is due to the factors of motion, time, and space, which we mitigate by stationing battlegroups around the world, close to the area they might have to respond to. Now, you know that's significantly different from capitals in EVE Online.

RubyPorto wrote:
you don't get to use "The United States" as a template for "A small group in EVE."


314,000,000/7,000,000,000 = 0.04857 . . .

4.9%, would you call that a BIG percentage or would you call that a SMALL percentage? I'm not really sure what your point is in arguing this.

RubyPorto wrote:
Saying that nerfing something would be bad != Saying that buffing it would be good.


Are you or are you not saying that jump drives are good for the game? Get your story straight. If they are good for the game, give them to everyone. If they're bad for the game, maybe they need nerfed. The third alternative, of course, is that they are perfectly balanced. Go ahead and make THAT assertion.


You're the one who brought up the US's military strength and compared it to EVE, as an example of how you think a small group should be able to project power. I pointed out that the US is 1) Not a small group, and 2) Able to project power much better than large EVE groups can. So, through your analogy, you seem to be suggesting that EVE's large groups should be able to project power much better than they can now.

(A small group of small ships can kill an EVE super, and have done so before. Just like a small craft can cripple an un-supported Supercarrier, which is why Supercarriers are never without their Strike group.)


9152/350,000 = .02614...

2.6%, would you call that a Big percentage or a Small percentage? You are literally calling Goonswarm a "small group."



Once again, you're trying to bait me into your false dilemma. It's not going to work.
RubyPorto wrote:
Saying that nerfing something would be bad != Saying that buffing it would be good.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#445 - 2013-01-30 07:53:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
As an established analogy master, allow me to improve the RL comparisons of what we're talking about here.

This is kind of like if after WWII, Japan was extremely mad about the nuclear bombings and aircraft carriers and whatnot and petitioned the UN to nerf naval power projection. That naval power projection was unfair and hurt 'developing countries', who need special consideration to prevent being overrun by the big NATO bluefest. The UN, not always being of wise judgement, agrees and lays down the hammer, reverting the oceans back to the age of sail. However, without ocean freighters of food coming from agricultural exporting countries, oceanic and desert developing countries whose populations have grown far beyond what the local soil can support trigger global mass famines, their numbers withering away as the larger, more developed nations are better able to cope with the decreased food supply through greater resources (both material and manpower) and organizational ability.
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
#446 - 2013-01-30 08:10:08 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
You're the one who brought up the US's military strength and compared it to EVE

No, I didn't. The guy I quoted did, and I was just countering what he said.

RubyPorto wrote:
You are literally calling Goonswarm a "small group."

Did you count their alts? Also, I think the general consensus is that 350,000 is a liberal estimate. Also, we might wonder what total percentage of the capital pilot population they were, especially given that capitals are not allowed in high security space.

Quote:
big political blocks will always overshadow the smaller ones


That is the quote I was disagreeing with. It looks like you and I agree on something! Big political blocs (think "China") do not always overshadow the smaller ones (think "4.9%").

Quote:
If, nerfing jump drives would be bad:

a)buffing jump drives would be good.
b)buffing jump drives would be neutral.
c)buffing jump drives would be bad.


^That is neither FALSE, nor is it a DILEMMA. Pick one.
Andracin
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#447 - 2013-01-30 08:33:37 UTC
Nerfing in any MMO generally has consequenses that not even the people who ask for the nerf expect. Look at CCP's history of nerf-batting averages... This entire agrument reminds me of SWG when everyone was whining about all the unfairness about jedi's not being availabe to all players immerdiately...how certain classes were not fair...so SOE did what they do best...listened to the whiners and gave everyone jedi's, re-made the available classes...and all the vets left...followed by the whiners... I would support a nerf if one power bloc managed to hoard all the capitals and entirely dominate the game. But that don't happen. There are tons of people who own caps and super caps, 0.0 politics will never entirely solidify because most alliances are ran by ego maniacs who get on eachother's nerves on top of TZ and language barriers. There are such a poliferation of them now that I don't think there is any one power bloc that can make use of them to such an extent as to un-balance the game. Goons have a massive fleet of super caps but look at the recent asakai incident if you want to see what can happen if you randomly use your over-powered force projection...
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
#448 - 2013-01-30 12:46:10 UTC
Andracin wrote:
look at the recent asakai incident if you want to see what can happen if you randomly use your over-powered force projection...


Asakai is low sec. Low sec has some built-in "nerfs" to force projection and capital warfare (i.e. no doomsdays). The outcome would have likely been different in null.