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How is bumping off undock not an exploit?
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Morganta
The Greater Goon
#61 - 2013-01-29 05:17:25 UTC
Chokichi Ozuwara wrote:
Obviously, there is limited invulnerability when undocking, so then wouldn't that make bumping off of undock an exploit, and it so, why haven't CCP addressed it?

inb4 bad posts
inb4 people who like to bump
inb4 station games are worse


because they are still laughing at your petition
Chokichi Ozuwara
Perkone
Caldari State
#62 - 2013-01-29 06:51:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Chokichi Ozuwara
Morganta wrote:
because they are still laughing at your petition

But I didn't put in a petition. So uhm... failpost?

Tears will be shed and pants will need to be changed all round.
Chokichi Ozuwara
Perkone
Caldari State
#63 - 2013-01-29 06:56:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Chokichi Ozuwara
rareden wrote:
Ever herd of bookmarks?

I have. I'd like to know how to make an undock bookmark, when it's your first undock from a station that blows you up.

Please explain that, I am sure everyone would like to know.

rareden wrote:
Is it above your cognitive ability to think of solutions yourself?

I don't need a solution. I merely want clarification.

rareden wrote:
must you complain to ccp to try and fix everything.

I haven't complained to CCP. I just made this thread asking other pilots what their opinion was.

rareden wrote:
If you don't want to be bumped then find another game or lean more about this one and stop crying about it.

As I have already posted, I don't mind if I am bumped. I'm not looking for rule changes, reimbursement, or anything other than clarification if this was a known mechanic not considered an exploit.

I think you've failed to read the thread, and certainly, most of my posts.

Tears will be shed and pants will need to be changed all round.
Not Politically Correct
Doomheim
#64 - 2013-01-29 07:01:47 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Not Politically Correct wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
For clarification, if you try to bump someone before their undock timer ends you simply fly through them. They are, in effect, intangible. You see this effect all the time at crowded undock points like Jita 4-4... all manner of ships flying through each other at first. They only begin playing bumper cars when people start changing course, they activate a module, or their timer runs out.


This is absolutely incorrect. Was the person who told you this wearing a tinfoil hat?

I go to Jita IV/4 a lot. If there are three other freighhters in fron ot me, or even one, I run into them in a lot less than 30 seconds.

I have a QE point there. It only works when there is nothing big in front of me.


Try this. Undock from Jita 4-4 with a stopwatch. Touch nothing. Time how long it takes for your ship to bump into something (as indicated by a sharp change in your velocity, not by when your graphics show you getting incorporeally swallowed by them).

Oh, and P4M1 works well as an Insta-Undock from 4-4 CNAP (just tested it), as does P4 (though not quite as neatly).

But, as I see that you're aggressively angry that other people understand the mechanics of the game we all play better than you do, so I'm sure you'll claim that you're a special snowflake for whom the game works differently.


Nope. No claim on being a special snow flake. I just like to look around every now and then when I am flying. If I can't warp to the QE point because of a freighter in front of me, I notice it.

It could be anything. Lag, graphics settings, whatever. But, when I push the Warp To button, and don't warp, it seems a little suspicious to me, based on what you suggest.
Chokichi Ozuwara
Perkone
Caldari State
#65 - 2013-01-29 07:02:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Chokichi Ozuwara
Psychotic Monk wrote:
The tool you want to use to defend yourself in this situation is an insta-undock bookmark. If you google it I'm sure you'll find a guide to making one.

I've made them many times before. It didn't help me at a station I was visiting for the first time.

Tears will be shed and pants will need to be changed all round.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#66 - 2013-01-29 07:57:37 UTC
Not Politically Correct wrote:
Nope. No claim on being a special snow flake. I just like to look around every now and then when I am flying. If I can't warp to the QE point because of a freighter in front of me, I notice it.

It could be anything. Lag, graphics settings, whatever. But, when I push the Warp To button, and don't warp, it seems a little suspicious to me, based on what you suggest.


Explain to me how you think "pushing the warp button" is included in the set "Touching Nothing." Pushing the warp button cancels your invulnerability.

As for insta-undocks, it sounds like you set yours up poorly, which is why you end up bumping into things as you align somewhere else. An insta will almost always (not always because the station ejects you facing somewhere in a 15deg cone) allow you to instantly warp because your speed is at or better than 75% max (it happens to be well better than max), and all that velocity is pointed in the right direction, so you enter warp immediately.

If you're pushing a Warp To button, you're not going to a bookmark, so what celestial are you warping to?

Everyone else who flies a Freighter in and around Jita has an insta-undock bookmark. As it happens, mine took me 10 minutes with my market alt in an AB Merlin. It works perfectly, and I've yet to have the realignment (due to the aformentioned cone) take long enough that I get bumped around.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#67 - 2013-01-29 10:31:10 UTC
For the love of... OK SIMPLE SOLUTION TIME to fix this and many of Jita's problems as well:

Hey, ever notice how many station models show multiple docking ports? Then how come all ships are stuck using the same one? How about CCP actually put in multiple functional docking ports in stations? Four should be enough. Have them all point in different directions. Six if you want to include straight up & down. Either let people chose an exit port or just randomize it to keep the interface clean.

Ta-da! Which exit port shall they use? Nobody knows! But many, many pointless collisions (and station camps) are thusly averted and egads, how hard can this really be to program, honestly?

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0
Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
#68 - 2013-01-29 10:33:18 UTC
I'm sorry captain, I didn't know where I was going... bump.

★★★ Secure 3rd party service ★★★

Visit my in-game channel 'Holy Veldspar'

Twitter @ChribbaVeldspar
Inquisitor Kitchner
The Executives
#69 - 2013-01-29 10:54:15 UTC
Chokichi Ozuwara wrote:


inb4 bad posts



How can you post before your own post?

"If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared." - Niccolo Machiavelli
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#70 - 2013-01-29 11:25:23 UTC
Psychotic Monk wrote:
The tool you want to use to defend yourself in this situation is an insta-undock bookmark. If you google it I'm sure you'll find a guide to making one.


Its a necessary tool - but not 100% reliable alone - have to be aware that your launches can be pretty crooked. If you are in a cloak warper you may be able to cloak and then go if your opponent doesn't accelerate after you properly during invuln. Tricky game though, always have to have it in the back of your mind to wait and redock if its not gunna work.

I put a little too much faith in a crooked lauch (insta launch was straight enough) once against RSB'd opponents.
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#71 - 2013-01-29 15:13:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Solstice Project
Tauranon wrote:
Psychotic Monk wrote:
The tool you want to use to defend yourself in this situation is an insta-undock bookmark. If you google it I'm sure you'll find a guide to making one.


Its a necessary tool - but not 100% reliable alone - have to be aware that your launches can be pretty crooked. If you are in a cloak warper you may be able to cloak and then go if your opponent doesn't accelerate after you properly during invuln. Tricky game though, always have to have it in the back of your mind to wait and redock if its not gunna work.

I put a little too much faith in a crooked lauch (insta launch was straight enough) once against RSB'd opponents.

Cant cloak within docking radius and whoever *waits* to instaundock is doing it wrong.
Completely.

Done right, one is uncatchable.

If the OP docks at a station before making one ... well... too bad.
Dr No Game
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#72 - 2013-01-29 15:17:00 UTC
Chokichi Ozuwara wrote:
rareden wrote:
Ever herd of bookmarks?

I have. I'd like to know how to make an undock bookmark, when it's your first undock from a station that blows you up.

Please explain that, I am sure everyone would like to know.


I don't suppose it crossed your mind to make an undock insta in a crappy frigate BEFORE you undocked in your expensive ship?
enterprisePSI
#73 - 2013-01-29 16:03:06 UTC
Military experts are calling this a create insta undock with an alt.

The tears of the many, outweigh the tears of the few. Or the one. enterprise-psi©
Chokichi Ozuwara
Perkone
Caldari State
#74 - 2013-01-29 18:12:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Chokichi Ozuwara
Dr No Game wrote:
I don't suppose it crossed your mind to make an undock insta in a crappy frigate BEFORE you undocked in your expensive ship?

What difference would that have made? I would have lost the frigate.

I am not crying about losing a ship. The loss amount was trivial relative to my net space wealth.

I want clarification on how this mechanic works for future reference.

Tears will be shed and pants will need to be changed all round.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#75 - 2013-01-30 04:56:17 UTC
Chokichi Ozuwara wrote:
Dr No Game wrote:
I don't suppose it crossed your mind to make an undock insta in a crappy frigate BEFORE you undocked in your expensive ship?

What difference would that have made? I would have lost the frigate.


And tried again, having lost nothing of any significance.

Quote:
I am not crying about losing a ship. The loss amount was trivial relative to my net space wealth.

I want clarification on how this mechanic works for future reference.


And you've received it. In spades.

You undocked > you waited 30s or did something to break your invulnerability (like pressing align, warp, or any module) > you got bumped out of the docking ring > you died.

Or you undocked from a kickout station > waited 30s or did something to break your invulnerability > got bumped to keep you from burning to the docking ring > died.

Those are the two possibilities, if everything you've told us is accurate.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#76 - 2013-01-30 10:10:42 UTC
Solstice Project wrote:
Tauranon wrote:
Psychotic Monk wrote:
The tool you want to use to defend yourself in this situation is an insta-undock bookmark. If you google it I'm sure you'll find a guide to making one.
Its a necessary tool - but not 100% reliable alone - have to be aware that your launches can be pretty crooked. If you are in a cloak warper you may be able to cloak and then go if your opponent doesn't accelerate after you properly during invuln. Tricky game though, always have to have it in the back of your mind to wait and redock if its not gunna work. I put a little too much faith in a crooked lauch (insta launch was straight enough) once against RSB'd opponents.
Cant cloak within docking radius and whoever *waits* to instaundock is doing it wrong. Completely. Done right, one is uncatchable. If the OP docks at a station before making one ... well... too bad.
I've tried that and its not possible from Australia - even in my other client, my ship is visible ~0.5 of a second before I'm allowed to initiate a warp, in the black screen the BM only allows me "approach". One imagines there is a hard sync occuring at the start of the space session, and client doesn't think I'm in space till the hard sync completes.

Europeans are almost certainly seeing me for longer, and quite frankly against teenagers 0.5 a second is more than enough - they'll have me picked and will be pressing lock.

The system allows a warp to be queued with a cloak at a gate, but obviously that is after the session change at my leisure.
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#77 - 2013-01-30 16:11:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Solstice Project
Tauranon wrote:
Solstice Project wrote:
Tauranon wrote:
Psychotic Monk wrote:
The tool you want to use to defend yourself in this situation is an insta-undock bookmark. If you google it I'm sure you'll find a guide to making one.
Its a necessary tool - but not 100% reliable alone - have to be aware that your launches can be pretty crooked. If you are in a cloak warper you may be able to cloak and then go if your opponent doesn't accelerate after you properly during invuln. Tricky game though, always have to have it in the back of your mind to wait and redock if its not gunna work. I put a little too much faith in a crooked lauch (insta launch was straight enough) once against RSB'd opponents.
Cant cloak within docking radius and whoever *waits* to instaundock is doing it wrong. Completely. Done right, one is uncatchable. If the OP docks at a station before making one ... well... too bad.
I've tried that and its not possible from Australia - even in my other client, my ship is visible ~0.5 of a second before I'm allowed to initiate a warp, in the black screen the BM only allows me "approach". One imagines there is a hard sync occuring at the start of the space session, and client doesn't think I'm in space till the hard sync completes.

Europeans are almost certainly seeing me for longer, and quite frankly against teenagers 0.5 a second is more than enough - they'll have me picked and will be pressing lock.

The system allows a warp to be queued with a cloak at a gate, but obviously that is after the session change at my leisure.


I apologize. I forgot that there are people out there who suffer from lag, which makes it hard to survive ...
... but really?

The only phase, at which one can be catched is during the alignment of the ship.
The shorter that phase is (in seconds), the higher your chance of survival.
What i always do is adjust the bookmark to the alignment of the ship i am in,
until said alignmentphase is well below one second.

I dont actually see how lag can change any of this. Even with lag, you can always adjust your bookmark to compensate.

You should try. I had a lot of fun figuring out how to make perfect instaundocks.
It cost me over a dozen pods ... that helped a lot! xD
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#78 - 2013-01-30 16:40:56 UTC
Tauranon wrote:
I've tried that and its not possible from Australia - even in my other client, my ship is visible ~0.5 of a second before I'm allowed to initiate a warp, in the black screen the BM only allows me "approach". One imagines there is a hard sync occuring at the start of the space session, and client doesn't think I'm in space till the hard sync completes.

Europeans are almost certainly seeing me for longer, and quite frankly against teenagers 0.5 a second is more than enough - they'll have me picked and will be pressing lock.

The system allows a warp to be queued with a cloak at a gate, but obviously that is after the session change at my leisure.


You have 30 seconds to initiate warp to your insta-undock while under the protection of the undocking invulnerability. During that invulnerability, you cannot be locked, bumped, or damaged.

I don't think .5 second lag in a turn based game with 1s turns is going to prevent you from hitting your bookmark when you have 30 seconds to safely do it.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Morganta
The Greater Goon
#79 - 2013-01-31 07:17:26 UTC
Tauranon wrote:
Psychotic Monk wrote:
The tool you want to use to defend yourself in this situation is an insta-undock bookmark. If you google it I'm sure you'll find a guide to making one.


Its a necessary tool - but not 100% reliable alone - have to be aware that your launches can be pretty crooked. If you are in a cloak warper you may be able to cloak and then go if your opponent doesn't accelerate after you properly during invuln. Tricky game though, always have to have it in the back of your mind to wait and redock if its not gunna work.

I put a little too much faith in a crooked lauch (insta launch was straight enough) once against RSB'd opponents.


the further the BM the less correction you ship has to make to align

a BM at 100k thats off center requires more alignment than a BM at 200k thats off center by the same amount

at close to 300k you can damn near eyeball an insta that requires little or no alignment.

if you attempt to fly a straight line from the undock to 150+ away you will make a terrible bm as most ships drift down as they launch and then people over correct trying to fly in a straight line.

just get to your correct distance and then line up visually with the undock from there, otherwise you kill the whole thing trying to be too accurate
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#80 - 2013-01-31 08:32:20 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:


I don't think .5 second lag in a turn based game with 1s turns is going to prevent you from hitting your bookmark when you have 30 seconds to safely do it.


I agree - I was just discussing why its probably impossible for me personally to hit the first timestep that occurs after I undock. Its not critical for not getting blown up, it just means one of solstice's suggestions won't work.