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CCP... The Simple Solution to the NPC Corp Issue
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Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#321 - 2013-01-30 03:12:29 UTC
Not Politically Correct wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Skeln Thargensen wrote:

cos you're going on about supply lines which means absolutely nothing outside of sov null. .
Yes they do.

Quote:
http://red-frog.org

you can wardec them though but i understand their cunning dec shield arrangement means it will cost you an immense amount of ISK.
Smile if you think they use their mains



Why would they use their mains with people like you around? They aren't stupid, and they aren't here for your entertainment, either.

I know, the things that guy says sometimes.
Not Politically Correct
Doomheim
#322 - 2013-01-30 03:23:40 UTC
Surfin's PlunderBunny wrote:
It's simple... after x amount of time you get booted from the NPC corp and put into a different NPC corp that is not wardec immune.

Genius! I swear my talents are wasted here...


Yes. They are. Please leave.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#323 - 2013-01-30 03:24:05 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:

If it's facilitating or replacing the acts of the first, for example, using a contested station, flying a freighter through a contested gate, mining in a contested belt, the alt can be wardecced as well, provided wardec evasion was eliminated. I mean, there's the chance that there's someone out there with unlimited high-SP alts, but that may be a chance worth taking.

I can see that working for individuals, though part of the issue was player organizations hiding behind NPC corp wardec immunity. Should those characters be split into their own individual corps would that not place an prohibitive burden on anyone trying to interdict their operations, both by way of identification of all the alt and through war costs? And if they do not decide to attack all the new logistical sub-entities, will they really stand to have any impact?

Acceptable advantage of larger entities?
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:

I think there should definitely be an increasing 'cooldown' on multiple corphops within a short period.

So here it would take 2 wardecs (assuming no recent corp changes) on different corps to lock down a character. Since this issue isn't simply NPC corp related there is nothing preventing a group of targets in a PC from splitting to different corps to maximize their aggressors cost for following them with the deck.

Non issue?
Skeln Thargensen
Doomheim
#324 - 2013-01-30 03:29:04 UTC
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
Skeln Thargensen wrote:
I'm not complaining, i'm just pointing out how futile it is to change this. I can learn corporate management in 8m. if it costs me a couple of million to set up a corp I'll tear it down in a new york minute and you might as well have bountied me. this is the reaction you want? 50M down the tubes and I'm laughing at you.


No, the ability to disband or drop from a corp at war is another part of the problem of actions without consequences. Eve's all about long-term consequences, and wardecs are a part of that. If you form a corporation you can't defend from a handful of guys and you refuse to hire mercenaries to defend you, get ready to stay docked up or take losses.

Want to know how easy it is to defend against MOST of these griefer outfits who wardec small indy corps? I coached some friends through their first wardec a while back. They put a bait miner in a belt with a cloaked falcon and pilgrim on grid. When the aggressors showed up (two of them) they spent the entire fight jammed out by a falcon and ECM drones. Those guys have since become quite a successful industrial corp. They don't win every fight, but they've got teeth enough that they don't see much action these days unless they go looking for it. Most griefers won't go after a corp that has 12-15 PVP ships on every kill in their killboard.


look this is an alt character i do certain ISK raising things with and so my main doesn't get SP bloated because of exponential rising clone type costs. I'm not into forming a plucky band of miners and fighting back against griefers. i'll simply log out for a week or leave high sec by my various means. Can you comprehend I would have a warchest and contingency plans to evade this sort of thing if i were deccable?

it's just an unlikely and minor headache if i get griefed. ganks are something i deal with and also evade for the most part and there is no warning of them whatsoever.

forums.  serious business.
snake pies
Dixon Cox Butte Preservation Society
#325 - 2013-01-30 03:32:16 UTC
How about trying to get new subscribers who want the corporation and alliance life, instead of picking on players who obviously don't want it? You won't force them into our playstyle, they'll just leave and that means that much less people playing Eve.
Not Politically Correct
Doomheim
#326 - 2013-01-30 03:33:18 UTC
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
Okay, after catching up on the thread, I see a particular thing repeated over and over again by NPC corp members:

"I'm not interested in PVP" . . .


State War Academy
Center for Advanced Studies
Republic Military School
Viziam
etc., etc., etc.

Try again.


Because that totally negates the point I was making...

Wait, no it doesn't. Just because some people in NPC corps do PVP doesn't mean they all do. The fact is, a LOT of peopl are using them as shelters from combat while continuing to engage in other PVP aspects of the game. This is imbalanced and frankly needs to be ended.


Floppy, what you are trying to do is called rationalization by psychologists. You are hoping that, if you say the right things, in the right ways, enough times, someone will believe that you don't have a problem after all.

Try harder. :)
Skeln Thargensen
Doomheim
#327 - 2013-01-30 03:34:38 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Skeln Thargensen wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
So continue to close loopholes involving wardec evasion, which includes things like NPC corps.


i see you're going to battle on with this even though it is obviously futile
See?

Skeln Thargensen wrote:
so, constraints and timers for setting up and disbanding corporations will have to be created to irritate the **** out of everyone else and will simply be gotten around with enough cash and alts.

oh no disincentives for blatant wardec evasion arrggh

I thought setting up such a thing was 'futile', whoops seems like I solved it in a paragraph


what 48 hr timer and i play with my alt in the meantime?

this is the issue here, you are trying to play a game that you think should exist where alts don;t exist, the bounty system works and a wardec against a solo alt is going to annoy him more than very slightly.

forums.  serious business.
Not Politically Correct
Doomheim
#328 - 2013-01-30 03:43:17 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:


And where is the evidence to support this belief? It's not supported in the least by the information that is readily available (and that people like I believe Tippia and Malcanis have linked over and over again).

No, that's just believe what fits your wants and needs rather than what you can prove. And it happens all the time here.


Sorry, but I don't think that I am the only one who Tippia and Malcanis have no credibility with.
Not Politically Correct
Doomheim
#329 - 2013-01-30 03:51:27 UTC
Gathrn Manathey wrote:
As a newbie, reading through this, it looks like I am supposed to quit my NPC corp and join a player controlled corp... But I am also told not to trust anyone because of, well, everything that is EVE...
The main thrust of this topic is about being war dec. Someone, somewhere, wants to be able to pvp people who have trained up for mining instead of pvp... And instead of giving incentives to address WHY they choose to stay in NPC corps, they just want to penalize people for doing so.

For the record, I am not mining, I am trying to train up to pvp/explore, but why should the game change to fit your needs if I can't change it to fit mine?


Very well said, and you made a very good point.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#330 - 2013-01-30 03:54:56 UTC
Hedion's oracle wrote:
Best solution is to leave well enough alone, working as intended for almost 10 years, if it wasn't CCP Devs would of changed it long ago. If you want targets i suggest stop blueing each other up and fight.

No it hasn't.

Yes, they have tried.

Yes, they are going to try again.

Some of you are incredibly deluted. You have no idea how ******* broken your NPC corp is because you've never left it.

Even CCP has refered to the use of the NPC corps as an exploitation of the mechanic that they NEVER intended.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#331 - 2013-01-30 03:55:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:

If it's facilitating or replacing the acts of the first, for example, using a contested station, flying a freighter through a contested gate, mining in a contested belt, the alt can be wardecced as well, provided wardec evasion was eliminated. I mean, there's the chance that there's someone out there with unlimited high-SP alts, but that may be a chance worth taking.

I can see that working for individuals, though part of the issue was player organizations hiding behind NPC corp wardec immunity. Should those characters be split into their own individual corps would that not place an prohibitive burden on anyone trying to interdict their operations, both by way of identification of all the alt and through war costs? And if they do not decide to attack all the new logistical sub-entities, will they really stand to have any impact?

Acceptable advantage of larger entities?
I feel just being able to put consistent pressure on logistics alts of PvP alliances should be enough of a start. Perhaps then they could even consider protecting them, as logistics operations typically are in lowsec, w-space and null. 50m isk isn't that steep a fee to pay to attack a single person, when you consider that freighter gankers pay a default non-insurable 600m to take a one-time swipe at a freighter with a talos gang.

Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:

I think there should definitely be an increasing 'cooldown' on multiple corphops within a short period.

So here it would take 2 wardecs (assuming no recent corp changes) on different corps to lock down a character. Since this issue isn't simply NPC corp related there is nothing preventing a group of targets in a PC from splitting to different corps to maximize their aggressors cost for following them with the deck.

Non issue?
Splitting up PCs into a series of individual units would certainly make wardeccing them more of a hassle, as you say, but it would also leave each individual more vulnerable to an attack by the aggressors, would it not? It would be a legitimate risk/reward decision made by the defenders, and definitely preferable to the present system where there is one obvious, automatically successful solution.
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#332 - 2013-01-30 04:06:34 UTC
For years I've seen people write on these forums how NPC corps are a "problem". And yet, I've not actually seen anyone explain how NPC corps are a "problem" without resorting to some lengthy description that ultimately culminates into reasons that are nothing more than rants and whines to enrich their own game play at the expense of others'.

So, please...explain to me...why NPC corps are a problem. Please exclude reasons that end up adding kills to your kill board, putting isk into your wallet or forcing people to the play the game the way you like to play it.

Don't ban me, bro!
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#333 - 2013-01-30 04:08:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
please explain why npc corps are bad, but not include eve gameplay in your explanation thx
Not Politically Correct
Doomheim
#334 - 2013-01-30 04:19:02 UTC
Ladies and gentlemen, I am truly impressed. This thread has taken an unexpected, and, in my eyes, GOOD turn. It seems that members of the 'Silent Majority' are starting to stand up, and say things that need to be said. Many things that I hadn't thought of, but that I feel are in the best interest of the game, have been posted in this thread.

I believe that this forum is a place to share what people feel is in the best interest of the game, and I believe that the 'noisy minority' have had their way for too long here.

The rules, and the purpose of the game are NOT set in stone. I believe that they can be changed so that it appeals to a wider audience. Now we just need to stand up a few more times, and convince CCP of that.

We all know about the Incarna disaster. I don't want to see that again, and I don't think anyone else does, either. I LOVE this game, but some of the players . . . . I don't love as much as others.

I have learned a lot from reading this thread. The 1%er's side is always the same, but many posters have increased my knowledge of in-game problems, as well as assuring me that I am not the only one who cares.

On the downside, it has also increased the number of characters on my DNR list. That's sad, but people who keep saying the same thing, over and over again, with slight changes in words but still the same negative slant, just aren't worth listening to. It's kind of like noise pollution.

Anyway, if you have friends who have been flamed out of these forums, please suggest to them that they read this thread. Maybe it will give them some hope that the game will eventually become what it could be.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#335 - 2013-01-30 04:20:55 UTC
You're welcome
Super spikinator
Hegemonous Conscripts
#336 - 2013-01-30 05:03:31 UTC
Not Politically Correct wrote:
Ladies and gentlemen, I am truly impressed. This thread has taken an unexpected, and, in my eyes, GOOD turn. It seems that members of the 'Silent Majority' are starting to stand up, and say things that need to be said. Many things that I hadn't thought of, but that I feel are in the best interest of the game, have been posted in this thread.

I believe that this forum is a place to share what people feel is in the best interest of the game, and I believe that the 'noisy minority' have had their way for too long here.

The rules, and the purpose of the game are NOT set in stone. I believe that they can be changed so that it appeals to a wider audience. Now we just need to stand up a few more times, and convince CCP of that.

We all know about the Incarna disaster. I don't want to see that again, and I don't think anyone else does, either. I LOVE this game, but some of the players . . . . I don't love as much as others.

I have learned a lot from reading this thread. The 1%er's side is always the same, but many posters have increased my knowledge of in-game problems, as well as assuring me that I am not the only one who cares.

On the downside, it has also increased the number of characters on my DNR list. That's sad, but people who keep saying the same thing, over and over again, with slight changes in words but still the same negative slant, just aren't worth listening to. It's kind of like noise pollution.

Anyway, if you have friends who have been flamed out of these forums, please suggest to them that they read this thread. Maybe it will give them some hope that the game will eventually become what it could be.


I love RPers, you make EvE go round.
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#337 - 2013-01-30 05:07:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Barrogh Habalu
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
No it hasn't.

Yes, they have tried.

Yes, they are going to try again.

Some of you are incredibly deluted. You have no idea how ******* broken your NPC corp is because you've never left it.

Even CCP has refered to the use of the NPC corps as an exploitation of the mechanic that they NEVER intended.

Probably the most broken part about NPC corps aren't people (actual people) who never left them, but player corps who use NPC corp alts to support whatever activities they commit to without putting their non-combat assets out of relative safety.

This significantly contributes to complex "alt problem" that makes many things in EVE obsolete (while, admittedly, making some other activities less tedious).

Super spikinator wrote:
I love RPers, you make EvE go round.

I don't see any RP there, what am I missing?

Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
Diablo Ex
Nocturne Holdings
#338 - 2013-01-30 05:13:21 UTC
Mr Kidd wrote:
For years I've seen people write on these forums how NPC corps are a "problem". And yet, I've not actually seen anyone explain how NPC corps are a "problem" without resorting to some lengthy description that ultimately culminates into reasons that are nothing more than rants and whines to enrich their own game play at the expense of others'.

So, please...explain to me...why NPC corps are a problem. Please exclude reasons that end up adding kills to your kill board, putting isk into your wallet or forcing people to the play the game the way you like to play it.



O.O

Your Serious?

Welcome to EvE Online... ( that's Everybody vs Everybody for you slow learners )

1. If your not adding kills to your kill boards your doing PvP wrong.
2. If your not doing PvP, your grinding PvE missions, mining, trading, or scamming to put ISK into your wallet.
3. If I am not adding to my personal empire, if I'm not gaining power or influence over others to my gain, then YOU are forcing ME to play the game YOU like to play. I'm NOT HERE FOR THAT!!!!!!!!

If I conduct War against someone, it is because I have a clear goal in mind, I'm not just some random griefer. I'm methodical. War is a Tool. If you are running sigs and anomallies in MY TERRITORY, and you leave behing wrecks that tell me who you are, and I wardec you to get you to go elsewhere and do something else then I have gained a victory. If I can get you to sit in station while I mine out the belts that your Corp strip out then I have gained a victory. I find it grossly annoying to see smug little NPC Corpies that think they are Entitled to playing the game Their Way, and wish to Dictate to me how I should play.

I have a Civillian Gatling Gun and I know how to use it!

Diablo Ex Machina - "I'm not here to fix your problem"
TharOkha
0asis Group
#339 - 2013-01-30 05:49:20 UTC
Barrogh Habalu wrote:
Probably the most broken part about NPC corps aren't people (actual people) who never left them, but player corps who use NPC corp alts to support whatever activities they commit to without putting their non-combat assets out of relative safety.

So the problem are neutral alts of actual pvp players. Then why all the hate on NPC miners?.. Oh they cannot wardec those bottom feeders? Poor litle l33ters

Quote:
I find it grossly annoying to see smug little NPC Corpies that think they are Entitled to playing the game Their Way, and wish to Dictate to me how I should play.


Nobody forcing you to play by their style. Nobody forcing you to stay in hisec. You just simply move to low/null/wh and you can fight for your territory / belts etc.... you know, to play by your style, and leave others to play theirs. Blink

CODE. Venture hunt contest in a nutshell
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#340 - 2013-01-30 05:53:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Nova Fox
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
Wow. This thread has been busy.

To sum up a lot of what I'm reading here, there are quite a few NPC corp carebears insisting that their way of playing Eve is legitimate and they should be left alone to influence the market how they see fit while the rest of us are unable to influence their ability to conduct their carebear activities without expensive suicide ganks.

Once again: if you can opt out of combat, I should have the right to opt out of the market and get all my items spawned on an NPC market at fixed prices. I don't want to buy stuff made from your ore. Let me play Eve my way.


... If people think my way of playing is bad and get their way I will be so glad to be sinking everyone while they're logged off which would be the next thing these players will be complaining about being unable to do.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.