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The Future of Wardecs

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Mistah Ewedynao
Ice Axe Psycho Killers
#381 - 2013-01-29 19:24:53 UTC
Singular Snowflake wrote:
Many posts filled with Lots of griefer rubbish


Hopefully, somebody in CCP realizes that the VAST majority of their paying subscription base have nothing in common with the likes of you.

Nerf Goons

Nuke em from orbit....it's the only way to be sure.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#382 - 2013-01-29 20:39:05 UTC

Here's an F&I idea for a middle ground between fully war-deccable corps and NPC Corps:

The Pacifist Corp
Singular Snowflake
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#383 - 2013-01-29 20:51:45 UTC
Mistah Ewedynao wrote:
Singular Snowflake wrote:
Many posts filled with Lots of griefer rubbish


Hopefully, somebody in CCP realizes that the VAST majority of their paying subscription base have nothing in common with the likes of you.

Nice argument there, friend. So you think empowering newbies to stand up to older players is not a good suggestion?

I'd like to see the source of your "VAST" majority though, given that the game was build on ideas like:
CCP Solomon wrote:
The risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP).

CCP Wrangler wrote:
EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Markku Laaksonen
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#384 - 2013-01-29 21:12:32 UTC
CCP Solomon wrote:
Stuff

-Solomon Grundy*



Solomon Grundy want pants too!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=eGQEAiZJMco#t=70s

*Added CCP Solomon's surname.

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Aren Madigan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#385 - 2013-01-30 14:38:20 UTC
My only view on the wardec system for the moment is to remove the ability to abuse it to reset the cost of the wardec, or make it where it is pointless to do so. Beyond that, I have to reserve my opinion until I'm more experienced in the matter, but manipulating a system in the way that I've seen done with the wardec system is a pretty clear indication of a problematic and ineffectual system.
Rellik B00n
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#386 - 2013-01-30 15:14:03 UTC
and once again we see why they dont have these discussions with all of us but rather a small representative group.

Soloman was stating facts, looking fior solutions and possibly playing a bit of devils advocate to encourage healthy debate.

The option should always exist to declare war on player corps but if someone doesnt want to fight you then they wont, regardless of what you think about that.
Therefore in essence actual combat is already consentual: they will consent to fight or they will not.

Denial and disruption are non-consensual and are an important part of the system but in terms of firing lasers at each other he was correct.
[Of a request for change ask: Who Benefits?](https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=199765)
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#387 - 2013-01-30 15:46:16 UTC
Psychotic Monk wrote:
Canthan Rogue wrote:

Yeah I agree with this. People defending war decs in its current form are not defending emergent gameplay; they are defending a specific type of emergent gameplay that favors experienced PvP corporations that have plenty of ISK and don't run non-PvP activities. When a high SP/ISK corp war decs a corp with many new players, they have plenty of opportunities to "ruin someone's day". However, this cannot be said for the defending corp. Even if they fleet up and destroy enemy ships, the loss by the aggressor corp as a fraction of their wealth is relatively small compared to the loss borne by the defender.


Well, I know when one of my friends is spacepoor and loses a ship I help them out if I am spacerich. Any corp with well experienced dudes shouldn't have to worry about losing their t1 cruiser, right? I mean, yeah, you can't be best friends with everyone in corp, and not everyone is as generous as I am, but people are paying tax into this theoretical corp for a reason, right?

usually people have access to corps hangars. I remember when i was n00b my corpmates gave me access to corp hangars. 99% of my fit consisted of modules i took there.

However there is another question: yes, corp can compensate you your loss during war. But why should you lose your ship in the first place? You are n00b. You have no skills, no experience. Corporation is not pvp-oriented (we speak about standard defender). You want to pvp? That's ok. go and do it. Need ISK? Go and grid it.

It's ok when wartargets got you in mission and killed. But if you joined fight without skills/experience and got loss.... I hardly see any reasons to corporation to compensate it.

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Psychotic Monk
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#388 - 2013-01-30 15:54:34 UTC
The arguement that a player shouldn't seek pvp because they're not yet good at pvp is a bit like saying a player shouldn't try to earn money because they're not yet good at earning money.

Belligerent Undesirables Selling Griefer Immunity
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#389 - 2013-01-30 16:14:15 UTC
Psychotic Monk wrote:
The arguement that a player shouldn't seek pvp because they're not yet good at pvp is a bit like saying a player shouldn't try to earn money because they're not yet good at earning money.

True. So why don't they PvP? Because they do not like it. For many people a confrontational interaction with another person is just a big pile of stress that leaves them feeling drained and sick. Its an event to be avoided, especially in a recreational activity done for fun.

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March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#390 - 2013-01-30 16:14:22 UTC
Vimsy Vortis wrote:

The highsec PVP foodchain at the moment feels like it consists entirely of grass and apex predators with virtually nothing in between.
...
Increased cost and harsher penalties on aggressors just results in the only people willing to be aggressors being us guys with guardians, offgrid boosters and faction battleships and the guys who camp trade hubs in tornadoes.

If you want people in highsec to undock to fight in wars the defenders need to be fighting someone they can plausibly beat so they don't just pucker up and hide and over the last year the changes to mechanics have forced the kind of people who generalist highsec groups can plausibly beat to cease to exist entirely.

you mean adding more mid-level predators (and not decreasing high-level ones) will help targets to grow? Shocked

looks somehow strange.

i would set question another way: how to change current war-dec mechanic to allow mid-level predators to survive and prevent high-level ones from clearing all the area?

because if you only lower war costs and add more mid-level predators it will not help with ability of targets "do not turtle".

To be honest being defender i would not engage anyway. Because you know: previously "neutral logi" became "logi with flag suspect" which is easily solvable by organized pvp-player groups. So attacking t1 cruiser (from your example of low-level wardec corp) you have 90% of chance to meet high-level wardec group support "just for fun". Like they do it in trading hubs with suspect baiting.

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#391 - 2013-03-25 13:15:14 UTC
Just will add this. If ccp ever removes non consensual war decs from the game, They will loose my subscription AGAIN.


They keep removing all places where peopel can have fun in the game. What are we supposed to play? Frigate warfare in Faction warfare? or Capital warfare in super blobs in 0.0?

Where is the space for the proper high quality PVP???



Removing non consensual war decs would kill all the hope I still had for this game. means that the developers became ruled by a bunch of girlish cowards fluffy loving ideology. Go play WOW if you want that!


"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#392 - 2013-03-25 13:41:14 UTC
How does a war dec against a corp that just turtles up, never undocks or even never logs in, result in quality PvP?

Yes some corps do fight back. Non-consensual decs against such corps are not the issue, its decs against corps that want nothing to do with them, and hence do not fight back thats the issue.

Why? Because this is an MMO. The O stands for On-line, and its CCP's policy that players should be On-line. A game mechanic that encourages 70% of those involved to not log in needs to be examined to see if it can be modified in some way.

The modification "Get rid of them" would do the trick, but has alot of fallout.
Another modification would be to allow the defender to pay CONCORD to invalidate the war.
Another would be to allow the formation of Neutral or Pacifist corps which would have restrictions.

Modifications that "force" the war on players (cannot leave corp, or the war follows the player, no matter what) will have a poor results as you cannot force a player to log in. Remember the O in MMO.

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Cannibal Kane
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#393 - 2013-03-25 13:45:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Cannibal Kane
Going through this thread I have seen 3 things...

The crowd telling other to go play wow. Stop it
The we want wow crowd... Grow a pair.

And then the crowd that seem to sit on the fence spouting nonsensical ideas about how wars should be. Wether it be goal based or not. And this coming from people that never do wars.

As Vimsy said, I, myself as a player in EVE could prolly be described as an Apex Predator. I say leave the wardec system as it is for now. Right now as broken as some people believe it is it is actually working for me and I know for a fact many others. There are more important things for CCP to work on other than trying cockup another trail by error wardec system. Like they did when the released this system before fixing the glaringly obvious issues.

Yes people can leave corps. Don't care, it their right to do so.
Yes people have ******** allies that add no value to their wars. That is the defender corps own fault
Yes people turtleup or stay logged off. it is a risk you take.. thank you for spending 50mil.. next target.
No CCP does not need to add a reason box or goal item for wars. Especially when my only motive for wars is ISK.

Corp are more than able to defend themselves.... the difference is 99% of them don't want to? Don't know how to? or just dont care when their members get blown up. The issue is not the system... it is the people in that system unable and unwilling to use the tools made available to them to support and help themselves.

On a side note since this is something I got to add.... There are a couple in this thread that has been added to my list.

See you soon.

"Kane is the End Boss of Highsec." -Psychotic Monk
Haedonism Bot
People for the Ethical Treatment of Rogue Drones
#394 - 2013-03-25 14:14:48 UTC
Cannibal Kane wrote:
Going through this thread I have seen 3 things...

The crowd telling other to go play wow. Stop it
The we want wow crowd... Grow a pair.

And then the crowd that seem to sit on the fence spouting nonsensical ideas about how wars should be. Wether it be goal based or not. And this coming from people that never do wars.

As Vimsy said, I, myself as a player in EVE could prolly be described as an Apex Predator. I say leave the wardec system as it is for now. Right now as broken as some people believe it is it is actually working for me and I know for a fact many others. There are more important things for CCP to work on other than trying cockup another trail by error wardec system. Like they did when the released this system before fixing the glaringly obvious issues.

Yes people can leave corps. Don't care, it their right to do so.
Yes people have ******** allies that add no value to their wars. That is the defender corps own fault
Yes people turtleup or stay logged off. it is a risk you take.. thank you for spending 50mil.. next target.
No CCP does not need to add a reason box or goal item for wars. Especially when my only motive for wars is ISK.

Corp are more than able to defend themselves.... the difference is 99% of them don't want to? Don't know how to? or just dont care when their members get blown up. The issue is not the system... it is the people in that system unable and unwilling to use the tools made available to them to support and help themselves.

On a side note since this is something I got to add.... There are a couple in this thread that has been added to my list.

See you soon.


I do believe the final word on this subject has been said. Wardecs - working more or less as intended. No we can all move on to a more interesting subject. Like whether we love or hate James 315, whether highsec, nullsec, lowsec, and/or wormhole space is broken, if Holeysheet1 is super-awesome or not super-awesome, or that EVE is dying/not dying.

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Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Doomheim
#395 - 2013-03-25 14:58:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
CCP Solomon wrote:

...
Firstly, let me state clearly that there are no plans to change the war declaration mechanic into a system that caters to mutual high sec pvp only.

Secondly, the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP).
...


You say that, but sadly the implemented trends indicate a road to nerfdom based on actual *actions* taken by CCP...

- exhumer rebalance, reducing suicide ganking by adding hitpoints to mining ships
- the venture with its 'inbuilt' warp stabz
- reducing insurance payouts (again nerfing ganking)
- killing can-flipping (miner can take from suspect cans without going suspect himself)
- increases to wardec costs (with defender having as many free allies as he wants)

So I for one take no comfort in words until the details of the upcoming war dec changes are known, as I fear based on the above actions CCP will again nerf hisec aggression and call it 'balancing'.

Would you like to know more?
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#396 - 2013-03-25 15:52:15 UTC
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
CCP Solomon wrote:

...
Firstly, let me state clearly that there are no plans to change the war declaration mechanic into a system that caters to mutual high sec pvp only.

Secondly, the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP).
...


You say that, but sadly the implemented trends indicate a road to nerfdom based on actual *actions* taken by CCP...

- exhumer rebalance, reducing suicide ganking by adding hitpoints to mining ships
- the venture with its 'inbuilt' warp stabz
- reducing insurance payouts (again nerfing ganking)
- killing can-flipping (miner can take from suspect cans without going suspect himself)

yea. all these things killed wardecs Shocked

Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:

- increases to wardec costs (with defender having as many free allies as he wants)

can agree here. but i don't know the reasons behind this

Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
[So I for one take no comfort in words until the details of the upcoming war dec changes are known, as I fear based on the above actions CCP will again nerf hisec aggression and call it 'balancing'.

i have nothing against removing stupidity from this game. All these ganking nerfs did it well: they added brainwork into ganks. Kudos to CCP

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Kristoffon vonDrake
Forceful Resource Acquisition Inc
#397 - 2013-03-25 17:51:12 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Any attempt to force me to PVP will simply result in me quitting the game. How does that help anyone?

It helps reduce server lag for the people who actually play the game.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#398 - 2013-03-25 18:32:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
I'm still a fan of actually being able to "Win" various types of wars, whether you be the aggressor or the defender. Perhaps something along the lines of complete inactivity has a modest penalty which the defender may or may not find totally acceptable... one that even a token commitment to defense (say even 1 kill against the aggressors) might alleviate.

This is only a very crude example... but wars should be fought for a reason (even if it is simply for the fun of it) and be able to be won or lost or stalemated by either side (and have some sort of reward/penalty invovled).

I don't believe a war should "force" players to do something, I feel they should provide "incentive" to do something.

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Zimmy Zeta
Perkone
Caldari State
#399 - 2013-03-25 19:05:17 UTC
You guys do realize that you are posting in a necro thread here and so it's pretty much ado about nothing?

@ Cannibal Kane:
Am I on your blacklist? It would be an honor to fight you- and I mean that in the most sincere, respectful and un-ironic way.

I'd like to apologize for the poor quality of the post above and sincerely hope you didn't waste your time reading it. Yes, I do feel bad about it.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#400 - 2013-03-25 20:51:06 UTC
Zimmy Zeta wrote:
You guys do realize that you are posting in a necro thread here and so it's pretty much ado about nothing?

@ Cannibal Kane:
Am I on your blacklist? It would be an honor to fight you- and I mean that in the most sincere, respectful and un-ironic way.

If we started a new thread we would have been accused of not using the search function. And as no change has happened to the war dec system since the thread was started, CCP must need more of a push, and hence more to do.

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