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Pacifist Corps
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Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#1 - 2013-01-29 20:30:08 UTC


Lots of talk about how unfair "aggressive" wardecs are... In my opinion, everyone should be wardeccable... but that doesn't mean there can't be harsher penalties for aggressive wardecs.

Introducing a new Corp type: The Pacifist Corp...

What makes a Pacifist Corp non-violent?
  • If they attack any non-suspect or non-criminally flagged player they gain a suspect flag and hence become a legal target for anyone/everyone.

    • Can you wardec this corp?
  • Absolutely...

    • What's the benefit of being in a Pacifist Corp?
  • If someone attacks you, and you are not flagged an Outlaw, or flagged as a Suspect/Criminal at the time... they get a Suspect flag and can be attacked by anyone/everyone.
    • --- Does this apply to corp mates? maybe... would that be a good thing?

    Why wouldn't every corp be a Pacifist Corp then? There needs to be some limitations on Pacifist Corps.... Potential limitations:
  • They can't anchor a POS in highsec?
  • They can't join an alliance?
  • Perhaps they have a monthly fee they must pay to concord?

    • Can a Pacifist Corp become a regular Corp, or vice versa?
  • Maybe... but not if you are at war, and the process should be hinder-some enough to prevent flip flopping on any regular basis.

    • Any thoughts?
    Dyvim Slorm
    Coven of the Morrigan
    #2 - 2013-01-29 21:03:21 UTC
    It's a valiant attempt to try to square the circle and would need some careful balancing to make it work.

    I do agree that it should not be able to erect a POS, however I wonder if that wouldn't kill the idea as (I'm assuming) this would be used by indy corps so would severely curtail their operations.

    I wonder if another approach might be to limit it by corp size say less than 10 members, problem there of course is that it might lead to corps deliberately fragmenting into smaller units to make use of it. However if the size limit was added to no POS erection restriction it might well work to protect newby corps.

    Another option to protect new corps might be a simple time limit (I would have to think about that some more).

    On balance I am still more in favour of leaving the mechanics as they are with an increase in tax to NPC corps to pay for the wardec protection they enjoy, which player corps cannot compete with in a financial sense.

    It's worth thinking about some more though
    Mag's
    Azn Empire
    #3 - 2013-01-29 21:12:32 UTC
    To be a truly pacifist corp, then if they attacked anyone shouldn't they be flagged?

    I feel this would be a stepping stone to invulnerable corps in high sec. It wouldn't be long before they were asking for a combat PvP flag.

    Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
    Daichi Yamato
    Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
    #4 - 2013-01-29 21:31:52 UTC
    if i wardec a pacifist corp (PC) and then shoot them during the dec do i still go suspect? Shocked

    personally i think of the eve game as a whole as a PvP game. the moment u join ur in a PvP environment. if u dont want to compete with other players (because not all PvP is combat) then this is not the game for u.

    on top of that i believe that the failing of the dec system is that it is too easy to operate without putting hard assets in space. having NPC stations catering for ur every need leaves POS's as a luxury rather than a distinct advantage. its easy to think of ways to make POS's more necessary for miners and PvE'rs (like structures with gang links or corp skills to name some more recent idea's) but the PvP'er corps will remain unrestrained and free to corp hop and dock without fear of losing assets.

    its only fair to keep war decs avoidable for everyone until griefers and PvP'ers also have such an attachment to their corp and the necessity to put assets in space.

    EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

    Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
    Vincent Athena
    Photosynth
    #5 - 2013-01-29 21:40:38 UTC
    I do not think it would get the desired result. Assume you are in a pacifist corp and get a war dec. Now despite the war dec if the aggressor attacked you they would get a suspect flag. Given that:

    Would you go out mining? No, because a suspect in an asteroid belt will not get shot by anyone. The aggressor can warp to your mining ship and blow it up knowing that the chances they will lose a ship are small.

    Would you take out your mission ship and do missions? No, because a suspect in a mission space will not get shot by anyone.

    If you are in a Pacifist corp and get a war dec your best option is still to turtle. Drop corp, or play an alt, or play a different game, until the war is over. This is the case now: Most war decs result in almost no actual combat. The defender will turtle. They get poor game play as a result. The aggressor gets no targets for their war fee, so they too get poor game play.

    That is the oddity of the war mechanic. It seems to be absolutely necessary for the game, yet when it is used most of the time most of the people involved, on both sides, are unsatisfied with the results.

    Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

    Frozen fanfiction
    Danika Princip
    GoonWaffe
    Goonswarm Federation
    #6 - 2013-01-29 22:18:16 UTC
    So I can set the logistics corp of a nullsec alliance (Which is of course not a member of said alliance for wardec reasons) to be one of these, and my freighters will move unmolested?
    Gizznitt Malikite
    Agony Unleashed
    Agony Empire
    #7 - 2013-01-29 23:28:29 UTC
    Danika Princip wrote:
    So I can set the logistics corp of a nullsec alliance (Which is of course not a member of said alliance for wardec reasons) to be one of these, and my freighters will move unmolested?


    Not at all... You can still get wardecced and attacked without CONCORD intervention... However, those attacking you will become suspect flagged, and have to deal with potential 3rd party interference while they kill your freighter...
    Gizznitt Malikite
    Agony Unleashed
    Agony Empire
    #8 - 2013-01-29 23:30:53 UTC
    Mag's wrote:
    To be a truly pacifist corp, then if they attacked anyone shouldn't they be flagged?

    I feel this would be a stepping stone to invulnerable corps in high sec. It wouldn't be long before they were asking for a combat PvP flag.


    Maybe Pacifist isn't the most appropriate adjective...

    You should ALWAYS be allowed to shoot back at someone attacking you...
    and truthfully, we want people to attack Suspects, Criminals, and Outlaws...

    As far as I'm concerned: More shooting == Good....
    Gizznitt Malikite
    Agony Unleashed
    Agony Empire
    #9 - 2013-01-29 23:43:00 UTC
    Vincent Athena wrote:
    I do not think it would get the desired result. Assume you are in a pacifist corp and get a war dec. Now despite the war dec if the aggressor attacked you they would get a suspect flag. Given that:

    A.) Would you go out mining? No, because a suspect in an asteroid belt will not get shot by anyone. The aggressor can warp to your mining ship and blow it up knowing that the chances they will lose a ship are small.

    B.) Would you take out your mission ship and do missions? No, because a suspect in a mission space will not get shot by anyone.

    C.) If you are in a Pacifist corp and get a war dec your best option is still to turtle. Drop corp, or play an alt, or play a different game, until the war is over. This is the case now: Most war decs result in almost no actual combat. The defender will turtle. They get poor game play as a result. The aggressor gets no targets for their war fee, so they too get poor game play.

    That is the oddity of the war mechanic. It seems to be absolutely necessary for the game, yet when it is used most of the time most of the people involved, on both sides, are unsatisfied with the results.


    In general... you are right on all points.... If people are too fearful of losing a ship they just won't undock... We can't force them to undock, you can't force them to fight... and that's just how it is...

    This allows for 3rd parties to step into the fight against the aggressor... putting the aggressor at a disadvantage. Fighting as a Suspect in highsec is always fighting at a disadvantage, because a third party can focus fire on each ship in your gang, while your gang can only return fire once they've been attacked (i.e. they typically can't focus fire)... If there is no 3rd party there (because your alone in a mission), this doesn't change anything... but now attacking in a public zone (like on a busy station or gate) can easily result in your demise...

    Additionally, it's much easier to get help when your opponents are flagged as a Suspect...

    Danika Princip
    GoonWaffe
    Goonswarm Federation
    #10 - 2013-01-29 23:50:57 UTC
    Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
    Danika Princip wrote:
    So I can set the logistics corp of a nullsec alliance (Which is of course not a member of said alliance for wardec reasons) to be one of these, and my freighters will move unmolested?


    Not at all... You can still get wardecced and attacked without CONCORD intervention... However, those attacking you will become suspect flagged, and have to deal with potential 3rd party interference while they kill your freighter...



    Yeah, and that means that all I have to do is pop my alt in a blackbird to escort my freighter with, and it's all good.
    Gizznitt Malikite
    Agony Unleashed
    Agony Empire
    #11 - 2013-01-29 23:56:11 UTC
    Danika Princip wrote:
    Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
    Danika Princip wrote:
    So I can set the logistics corp of a nullsec alliance (Which is of course not a member of said alliance for wardec reasons) to be one of these, and my freighters will move unmolested?


    Not at all... You can still get wardecced and attacked without CONCORD intervention... However, those attacking you will become suspect flagged, and have to deal with potential 3rd party interference while they kill your freighter...



    Yeah, and that means that all I have to do is pop my alt in a blackbird to escort my freighter with, and it's all good.


    If the people attacking you can't handle a blackbird.. then you deserve to get your freighter through unmolested...
    Gizznitt Malikite
    Agony Unleashed
    Agony Empire
    #12 - 2013-01-30 15:52:11 UTC

    What encourages a Mission Runner, Miner, or Industrialist to undock and shoot someone?
    Nikk Narrel
    Moonlit Bonsai
    #13 - 2013-01-30 15:59:30 UTC
    Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

    What encourages a Mission Runner, Miner, or Industrialist to undock and shoot someone?

    The belief they will either enjoy it, and / or benefit somehow.

    They will avoid it possibly, for the flipped aspect of this.
    (They think they might feel guilty somehow, or it will cost them enough to be a deterrent)

    I agree with what I believe to be your base logic. We need players to play the game, and it is better to have them in a more limited version than not at all.

    Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
    Bagrat Skalski
    Koinuun Kotei
    #14 - 2013-01-30 21:34:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Bagrat Skalski
    Quote:
    We can't force them to undock, you can't force them to fight


    You can't force us to fight, same as we can't force you to go into CQ and sit on couch. Its fair this way. I think we have sort of pacifist corps, named NPC corps.

    Quote:
    if u dont want to compete with other players (because not all PvP is combat) then this is not the game for u.


    Just watch these Jita station traders, this game is not for them apparently. Cool

    Custom ship skins, character creator style "repaint". Bring it!
    Nikk Narrel
    Moonlit Bonsai
    #15 - 2013-01-30 21:38:49 UTC
    Bagrat Skalski wrote:
    Quote:
    if u dont want to compete with other players (because not all PvP is combat) then this is not the game for u.


    Just watch these Jita station traders, this game is not for them apparently. Cool

    The station traders are involved in economic combat.
    Quite vicious in some cases too.

    Some of those scams make piracy look friendly by comparison, I think.

    Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
    Gizznitt Malikite
    Agony Unleashed
    Agony Empire
    #16 - 2013-01-30 21:40:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Gizznitt Malikite
    Bagrat Skalski wrote:
    Quote:
    We can't force them to undock, you can't force them to fight


    You can't force us to fight, same as we can't force you to go into CQ and sit on couch. Its fair this way. I think we have sort of pacifist corps, named NPC corps.


    My Suggestion doesn't force you to fight... it just makes it harder on corps trying to fight you when you chose to be in a Pacifist Corp...

    NPC corps are simply bad... because they isolate you from the war-dec system which is a major part of the combat aspect of PvP... while still enabling you to partake in the non-combat aspects of PvP (like station trading).

    Bagrat Skalski wrote:

    Quote:
    if u dont want to compete with other players (because not all PvP is combat) then this is not the game for u.


    Just watch these Jita station traders, this game is not for them apparently. Cool


    He said "Not all PvP is combat".... Station Trading is non-combat PvP.... and hence it would be for Jita Station Traders... Somehow I think you misread his comment...
    Bagrat Skalski
    Koinuun Kotei
    #17 - 2013-01-30 22:00:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Bagrat Skalski
    Yes, outbidding is form of competition, but is it PvP? When you say it's PvP, then truth is, there is always some sort of competition between players in every game. So every game where you could only trade, there would be PvP, but without combat.

    I don't think it's something relevant that we have competition everywhere, but usually people assume its something with battling other players with lots of swearing and shooting/hacking/slashing/combat, not selling high, bying low. It's more like trading with others, not combating them, and we have people in this game that don't like shooting. Shocked

    Custom ship skins, character creator style "repaint". Bring it!
    Nikk Narrel
    Moonlit Bonsai
    #18 - 2013-01-30 22:04:29 UTC
    Bagrat Skalski wrote:
    Yes, outbidding is form of competition, but is it PvP? When you say it's PvP, then truth is, there is always some sort of competition between players in every game. So every game where you could only trade, there would be PvP, but without combat. Shocked

    I don't think it's something relevant that we have competition everywhere, but usually people assume its something with battling other players with lots of swearing and shooting/hacking/slashing/combat, not selling high, bying low. It's more like trading with others, not combat, and we have people in this game that don't like shoting. Shocked

    The only time it is not PvP is when the trade is perfectly even, and noone makes a profit beyond what expenses they incur in the process.

    Any time someone marks up an item to increase the return on investment, that is competition.

    Any time someone marks down a price to unload their inventory, that is also competition.

    Competition puts Player against Player, or PvP for short.
    Try not to get hung up on the idea PvP must involve shooting or kill mails.
    Running a track meet is PvP too.

    Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
    Bagrat Skalski
    Koinuun Kotei
    #19 - 2013-01-30 22:09:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Bagrat Skalski
    Quote:
    Competition puts Player against Player, or PvP for short.
    Try not to get hung up on the idea PvP must involve shooting or kill mails.
    Running a track meet is PvP too.


    I like that idea. Everything is PvP, no compromises, no agreements, just man against his fellow man. Cool

    Custom ship skins, character creator style "repaint". Bring it!
    Davith en Divalone
    Aliastra
    Gallente Federation
    #20 - 2013-01-30 22:10:07 UTC
    Bagrat Skalski wrote:
    Yes, outbidding is form of competition, but is it PvP? When you say it's PvP, then truth is, there is always some sort of competition between players in every game. So every game where you could only trade, there would be PvP, but without combat.


    Anyone who thinks that market games can't be vicious and cutthroat hasn't sat down with my family at a Monopoly board (or played any of the PBM precursors to Eve.)
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