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CCP... The Simple Solution to the NPC Corp Issue

Author
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#201 - 2013-01-29 19:38:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Sir Diablos wrote:


In that highlighted section, I need you to highlight the part where he said that he is entitled to do all that unmolested.


Read his previous posts on this forum about the issue.

Quote:

Then I'll give you credit where it is due. Otherwise, you are just one more person in a long line of them who are willing to destroy parts of a game to serve YOUR purposes, not make the game better for everyone.


My "purpose" is an internally consistent game. i have nothing to gain from any of this, in fact I could lose out a bit. But wrong is wrong and right it right. a Player Driven game built upon the idea of consequneces for actions should not have something like the current NPC corps. It should HAVE NPC corps that players can be a part of, but not at a cost to real eve players playing in real people groups.
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#202 - 2013-01-29 19:44:43 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:

What this means is I'm willing to accept a nerf to npc corps that I participate in ( and thus my income) for the greater good of the game and community.


Just explain this greater good to me.

My corp gets a war dec. I can't make ISK to fund my accounts. If that continues, I drop from player corp to NPC corp so that I can make ISK to fund my accounts with PLEX.


How is it the "greater good" that I have to unsub because there is no way for me to make ISK to buy PLEX because you keep wardec-ing any corp I join?



Explain to me how getting rid of NPC corps, driving lots of carebears out of the game, improves the game!
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#203 - 2013-01-29 19:47:52 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:

My "purpose" is an internally consistent game.


Fine.... you can war dec an NPC corp, and the faction police and faction navy spawn in massive numbers anytime you are in faction space. While that NPC and war dec'ed, I can't really leave faction space without losing that faction police and faction navy cover.

Does that make the game internally consistent?
Skeln Thargensen
Doomheim
#204 - 2013-01-29 19:49:14 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Skeln Thargensen wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Skeln Thargensen wrote:


Mining has nothing to do with my NPC corp. It's a transaction between the refining station and the trade hub station and their respective NPC corps.

What are these rules you're on about? it an exploit to stay in my noob school? No? Against the EULA? Not? Any benefit as a miner for me to leave? none whatsoever?

Gosh it seems like the game is encouraging rational economic decisions. Fancy that!

And I am nerfed thank you. I cannot have a POS and I have this 11% tax rate. I cannot wardec others. I cannot claim sovereignty. that's the price I pay. Perhaps it could be argued that industry needs nerfing or the tax rate needs changing so player corps are more attractive but making NPC alts wardeccable is just futile for the reasons I have explained at length. We will adapt.

Now please explain why if you think this is such an awesome advantage why you aren't quitting your player corp as we speak?


Now please go back and show me where I said npc corps should be wardeccable.

Simply, the "price you pay" is insufficient. War Dec immunity is a HUGE benefit (and like most people who benfit from something , you seem unable to understand how HUGE that advantage is).

If people want that benefit, they should have to trade more than a slightly high tax rate and no ownership of POSs etc.

As for the mining stuff, that's the kind of self-serving rationalization that prevents understanding. The whole "transaction between refining station and npc corp" stuff is just hiding from the issue.

I doubt it will ever change because so many people are making use of "Evading consequences, NPC Corp style", but it's all still very wrong. Games should not support what amounts to contradictory rules-sets.


hey your employment history says you were in SWA for 3 years. Now I'm almost willing to believe you trialled and then subbed later as this would obviously be extremely embarrassing for you given your more recent ethos with regard to player corporations and evasion of consequences. maybe also this is an alt that languished in your account for 3 years which you suddnly got the urge to train up. these things do happen.

I'm just not sure if you can prove it.


What exactly are you talking about. This is one toon out of 12 I own on 4 accounts, and was simply a jita alt till I sold my main. There was no reason to move it until it became my defacto main.

I have 2 toons in npc corps right now for Incursion Fleets and High Sec exploration. The current situation is wrong, but then so was FW farming and I got RICH off it lol.

What this means is I'm willing to accept a nerf to npc corps that I participate in ( and thus my income) for the greater good of the game and community.

Are you? Or are you too selfish?


Well I wasn't going to accuse you of massive hypocrisy as, like i said, I have to give you the benefit of the doubt. However, you've then gone on to admit you have NPC corp alts which does sort of qualify.

also you're in a 0% tax haven corp with no war history.

Can someone wardec smokin aces to give Jenn a good feel of this whole wardeccy thing?

forums.  serious business.

Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#205 - 2013-01-29 19:49:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Tardbar
I posted in Features & Ideas on a possible solution to get players out of NPC corps into player run corps. It also addresses war dec avoidance.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2536640

The jist of the idea is to give player corporations skills that give bonuses to the corporation which only apply when you are a member. If the skills are exspensive enough and take long enough to train it will be an disincentive from quitting the corp and starting a new one because you'll have to start over again.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server

Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#206 - 2013-01-29 19:50:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
LHA Tarawa wrote:

Explain to me how getting rid of NPC corps, driving lots of carebears out of the game, improves the game!

Would DayZ be improved if there was a flag players could pick that would make them vulnerable to zombies only?
They just want to farm zombie loot all day. The devs should respect their valuable PvE dollar.
Of course not. It would actively diminish the game. So it is with NPC corps and EVE.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#207 - 2013-01-29 19:53:04 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:


In the game? FU. I don't have to be a target so you can grow your Epeen blowing up my ship.


Unless your are a Sansha, Serpentis, Gurista, Angel or Rogue Drone, I will probably never shoot your ship lol.

You always hide behind that "you just want me to pvp" crap. I am a PVE player mostly, but one who accepts the consequences of the game i've chosen to play.

Quote:

Go fight someone that is reading and interested in a fight instead of playing forum warrior trying to convince CCP to change the rules to drive 80% of their paid accounts out of the game.


I feel sorry for you that you need to cling to that belief to justify them. it's simply not true though, YOU might quit, but most everyone else will adapt.



[quote[
Yeah. People can suicide gank me. Find ONE post from me complaining about that. GO ahead.. look all day. You won't find one.[/quote]

it's not enough, you shold be wardecced too.


Quote:

Take away the current level of invulnerability, and I'll quit the game, and so will hundreds of thousands of thousands of other subscribers.


you might, but you can't speak for others. We KNOW what causes mass unsubs and changes to npc corps wouldn't evne come close imo.

Quote:

CCP had to put these things "makes it hard to F with people" things into the game to grow the customer base to the current level that it is. They know this. They know that if they take it away, they go bankrupt!


Why do you want high sec to become as empty as low and null.. for the few months that EVE would continue to operate between chasing out the carebears and CCP shutting down?


EVE may be about F'n with people to you. But if they make it any easier for people to F with me, I'm out.... which is why they aren't going to do that.



Again, you have no proof of any of this. And they game has been growing or stable since it's 1st days. you really belive some slightly tougher mining ships "grew the customer base"?

Anyways, all moot points, i doubt it will change but im going to lobby our CSM brosefs hard to take a look at these kinds of things and bring them to ccps attention. NPC corps aren't game breaking, their just poorly implemented.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#208 - 2013-01-29 19:54:55 UTC
Captain Tardbar wrote:
I posted in Features & Ideas on a possible solution to get players out of NPC corps into player run corps. It also addresses war dec avoidance.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2536640

The jist of the idea is to give player corporations skills that give bonuses to the corporation which only apply when you are a member. If the skills are exspensive enough and take long enough to train it will be an disincentive from quitting the corp and starting a new one because you'll have to start over again.


While a novel Idea, i reject ideas that "push" people to do anything. People should do what they want where they want as long as they accept the consequences of their action,s and there should be consequences.

It is the game that should be consistent
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#209 - 2013-01-29 19:56:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Hedion's oracle wrote:

Its not about being empty, its about being vulnarable, lets just pretend for a minute that infact Empire NPC corps dissappear, Miners now join player corps which in turn make them wardecable. I would bet a campaighn that would make hulkageddon look like childsplay would start to commence from certain alliances in null. The mass slaughter of highsec miners would drive ore threw the roof, not to mention ship prices. who do you think will benefit from that? You got it..... Nullsec Ugh
Nullsec alliances buy low-end mins too. In fact they buy the majority of it.
How would cranking up the price of low-end ore help them?
Logically the best course of action would be to keep low-end ore as low as possible through stuffing all miners and carebears in NPC corps so they could not fight each other (disrupting supply) and flood the veld market supply as much as possible, maximizing the buying power of their moongoo dollar. With the added benefit of securing their industrial backbone and supply chains with zero effort thanks to wardec evasion and NPC corp. Maximum gain, minimum cost with the current system as far as 0.0 alliances are concerned.

Hiseccers who actively defend themselves and successfully contest would be the ones who'd gain the most.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#210 - 2013-01-29 19:57:14 UTC
Skeln Thargensen wrote:


also you're in a 0% tax haven corp with no war history.

Can someone wardec smokin aces to give Jenn a good feel of this whole wardeccy thing?



Maybe "Center for Advanced Studies" should wardec us...

Oh wait.....
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#211 - 2013-01-29 20:00:13 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
LHA Tarawa wrote:

Explain to me how getting rid of NPC corps, driving lots of carebears out of the game, improves the game!

Would DayZ be improved if there was a flag players could pick that would make them vulnerable to zombies only?
They just want to farm zombie loot all day. The devs should respect their valuable PvE dollar.
Of course not. It would actively diminish the game. So it is with NPC corps and EVE.


I don't play DayZ, so I could not care less what DayZ does.

When EVE started, there was no high sec, no CONCORD, no NPC corps.... and the player base was tiny.


CCP added these things to attract carebears and casual players. And it worked. Subscriptions have continued to increase the more accessible they make the game.

CCP knows that if they take this away, the number of subbed accounts will crash through the floor. So, they won't.
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#212 - 2013-01-29 20:01:55 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Captain Tardbar wrote:
I posted in Features & Ideas on a possible solution to get players out of NPC corps into player run corps. It also addresses war dec avoidance.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2536640

The jist of the idea is to give player corporations skills that give bonuses to the corporation which only apply when you are a member. If the skills are exspensive enough and take long enough to train it will be an disincentive from quitting the corp and starting a new one because you'll have to start over again.


While a novel Idea, i reject ideas that "push" people to do anything. People should do what they want where they want as long as they accept the consequences of their action,s and there should be consequences.

It is the game that should be consistent


Nerfing NPC corps is pushing people to do something. Its an attempt to push them out of the corp. I'm going to argue that it didn't work with taxes and won't work with anything else. You need to buff player corps and it encourages players to move out of NPC corps.

It makes being in a corp that can be wardec'd more at an advantage than being in an NPC corp. So it means if you take more risk and stick with the corporation, you'll reap an equivalent reward more suited for the level of risk you are taking.

Isn't that what you want? You want people who take more risk to be rewarded?

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server

Skeln Thargensen
Doomheim
#213 - 2013-01-29 20:02:39 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Skeln Thargensen wrote:


also you're in a 0% tax haven corp with no war history.

Can someone wardec smokin aces to give Jenn a good feel of this whole wardeccy thing?



Maybe "Center for Advanced Studies" should wardec us...

Oh wait.....


Yes that's it. You''re getting the hang of it now. It is a door that swings both ways.

I don't think you're very internally consistent Jenn. You may have been hanging out in the POS alone with your 14 alts for too long.

forums.  serious business.

LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#214 - 2013-01-29 20:03:24 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:

While a novel Idea, i reject ideas that "push" people to do anything. People should do what they want where they want as long as they accept the consequences of their action,s and there should be consequences.

It is the game that should be consistent


There are consequences. There is the risk of the suicide gank.

Want to talk consistent? Why can you war dec a corp at all. Nations wardec. High sec corps are not nations. Null sec nations that hold sov should be able to war dec other sov holding nations... and that's it!

How would that change for internal consistency work out for you oh supreme judge of consistency?
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#215 - 2013-01-29 20:06:10 UTC
Skeln Thargensen wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Skeln Thargensen wrote:


also you're in a 0% tax haven corp with no war history.

Can someone wardec smokin aces to give Jenn a good feel of this whole wardeccy thing?



Maybe "Center for Advanced Studies" should wardec us...

Oh wait.....


Yes that's it. You''re getting the hang of it now. It is a door that swings both ways.

I don't think you're very internally consistent Jenn. You may have been hanging out in the POS alone with your 14 alts for too long.


12 alts, and we're too busy solo camping Jita to worry about the likes of you!
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#216 - 2013-01-29 20:08:04 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:

While a novel Idea, i reject ideas that "push" people to do anything. People should do what they want where they want as long as they accept the consequences of their action,s and there should be consequences.

It is the game that should be consistent


There are consequences. There is the risk of the suicide gank.


And in a PLAYER corp their is the risk of a suicide gank AND A WARDEC.

Get it? Player corp 2 risks, noc corp 1 risk.

Tell me you get it, i will be sad if you don't!

Quote:

Want to talk consistent? Why can you war dec a corp at all. Nations wardec. High sec corps are not nations. Null sec nations that hold sov should be able to war dec other sov holding nations... and that's it!

How would that change for internal consistency work out for you oh supreme judge of consistency?


Do you actually read the stuff you post lol?

LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#217 - 2013-01-29 20:09:13 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Anyways, all moot points, i doubt it will change but im going to lobby our CSM brosefs hard to take a look at these kinds of things and bring them to ccps attention. NPC corps aren't game breaking, their just poorly implemented.


Lobby all you want, but CCP will ignore them.

CCP knows that when they made the game more accessible to casual players and carebears, the subscriptions skyrocketed.

How do I know high sec, CONCORD and NPC corps won't be removed? Because CCP went to the work to add them, they accomplished what CCP hoped they would accomplish(more paid subscriptions), and CCP has no desire to see that reversed.


There is room in EVE for players of many, many play styles. CCP wants to be making real money off all of those play styles.

There is nothing internally inconsistent about CCP making different sets of rules that apply to different areas of the game, to make the game appeal to people with various play styles.
Skeln Thargensen
Doomheim
#218 - 2013-01-29 20:09:21 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Skeln Thargensen wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Skeln Thargensen wrote:


also you're in a 0% tax haven corp with no war history.

Can someone wardec smokin aces to give Jenn a good feel of this whole wardeccy thing?



Maybe "Center for Advanced Studies" should wardec us...

Oh wait.....


Yes that's it. You''re getting the hang of it now. It is a door that swings both ways.

I don't think you're very internally consistent Jenn. You may have been hanging out in the POS alone with your 14 alts for too long.


12 alts, and we're too busy solo camping Jita to worry about the likes of you!


grim.

i contract my stuff like any civilised capsuleer. jita destroys braincells and reduces your will to liuve.

forums.  serious business.

Guttripper
State War Academy
Caldari State
#219 - 2013-01-29 20:16:20 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:

12 alts, and we're too busy solo camping Jita to worry about the likes of you!

Weren't you the one whining about players living in momma's basement with a part time job at Wal-Mart and not paying the rent? Then later brought up welfare?

You know, I must really be one sorry ass player since I rarely have time to do anything with this account accept skill. Real life and all that... but then again, do I aspire to be a Fanatical Fanboy?

Nope.
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#220 - 2013-01-29 20:18:28 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:

Get it? Player corp 2 risks, noc corp 1 risk.

Tell me you get it, i will be sad if you don't!


I get it.

And player corps can put up POSes for research, manufacturing, etc. Players in NPC corps can not.

Or, if you are not an industrialist, you make upto 10% more ISK from PVE in player corp.

So, yes, I get it. There are advantages (no wardec) and disadvantages (no POS and high tax) to being in a NPC corp.


AND, neither of these situations removes all consequences as you can still be suicide ganked, be scammed, mess up a market order, have other players shoot the rocks that you hoped to mine, ninja your mission loot/salvage, be penny war'ed, etc.




Jenn aSide wrote:


Do you actually read the stuff you post lol?



Yes, do you?


You want the game changed for consistency? Player corps can be wardeced but NPC can't?

That sets up two solutions to this inconsistency. 1) as you want, do something to eliminate being able to join an NC corp to avoid wardec or 2) Make player corps not wa-dec able.

You go ahead and lobby for option 1.

Personally, I'd prefer to keep the internal inconsistency than go with option 1 or option 2.