These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

CCP... The Simple Solution to the NPC Corp Issue
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Skeln Thargensen
Doomheim
#181 - 2013-01-29 17:52:44 UTC
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
Skeln Thargensen wrote:
I am not a single entity so I cannot be attacked like one nor do I need the protection of a corp because of that. this is why removing npc corps is just futile. I'll simply change my playstyle and you still don't have highsec war targets. I don't even have to set foot in highsec if I don't want to. I don't need to undock I can jump clone all over the place and contract everything. I can log out in space. i can go AFK cloaky. i could go on but hopefully the futility of this wish is now clear. we will adapt and let the game shape our decisions and playstyle.


Using jumpclones and afk cloaking and logging in space are ways to avoid confrontation, but they do NOT guarantee your safety. They're methods of avoidance.

NPC corp membership means you can do whatever you want, because the ONLY way someone can engage you in combat in highsec is with a gank.

Huge difference there.


to my playstyle yes, to yours no. you will still find me unavailable to be pew pewed. I will simply change my style to thwart your wardec.

forums.  serious business.
Lady Ayeipsia
BlueWaffe
#182 - 2013-01-29 18:02:37 UTC
Why is it that every one must be deccable in your eyes? This seems to be the cornerstone of your argument, but you have yet to truly prove this is required by eve.

Also, what advantages, what rewards will you grant to those who would normally be in NPC corps to balance this new risk you wish to inflict.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#183 - 2013-01-29 18:06:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Skeln Thargensen wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Skeln Thargensen wrote:
March rabbit wrote:
Where is the problem?


The problem is that people have preconceived notions of how this game should be played and that it not be noob or casual friendly, even if they have an entire area of the game to play in and they choose to make it so boring that a good epic fight only happens when someone accidently hits the wrong button.


A very bad lie, one you people love to hide behind.

No one cares how you play, how long you play, what corp (NPC or otherwise) you choose to be a part of etc etc. We care about the game we play, we want the game to be internally consistent and (as a product) fair to each account holder.

We want the game they tell us is about cold harsh dark consequences to BE about that, not about silly un-EVE like protections against consequences.

The NPC corp mission runners and explorers have to "pay" for their protection from wardecs in the form of high taxes, EVERYONE in an npc corp should have to pay for that protection too.

Of course the truth and reasonableness of the above statement will fall on the deaf ears of those enjoying the unfair advantages of npc corp safety. But now is the time for change. OCCUPY NPC CORPS...

......ok wait, maybe that should be UN-OCCUPY NPC CORPS!!1


look, there's a basic problem with this that you aren't comprehending here as, like I said, people have preconceived notions about how this game should be played.

I am not an individual, there are three of me and I have jump clones. if you wardec 'me' I will either log out and play with my alt or clone jump down to null, buy some stuff in jita with an alt and contract it down to null so I can live there. if CCP nerfed NPC corps tax rate I will make a tax haven. I take glee in evasion as a metagamer.

if you want to spawntrap people play call of duty.


It's almost funny when someone claims another person isn't comprehending, while they then go on the address tings that weren't even said.

What do jump clones and spawn camping and such have to do with anything I said? Who cares what you do to avoid wardecs? When I've been wardecced I just fire up the low sec alts and lvl 5 mission run or the null sec alts and explore.

None of that is the point. The point is exactly what i said it was (fairness, both NPC corps vs everyone else and even within npc corps between mission runners/explorers and miners/haulers/traders), and what you and your like refuse to address (because you know you can't, not and keep a straight face).

(gonna high light this next part in an effort to get the blind high sec crowd to actually see it)

If people want to "live in an NPC corp and accept the consequences (high taxes, not being able to fly certain ships, not being able to own a POS etc) in exchange for war dec immunity, that would be fine with me. What's not fine CCP providing a corporate place to avoid negative consequences FOREVER in what should be a "harsh, cold" game. A place where people can still do things that affect everyone else, but can't be affected so much by others without CONCORD intervention.

But oh no, expecting everyone to play by the same rules-set in a game is too much to ask for high sec npc corp "evaders" isn't it?

Please explain your rationale to me, and why you think it's ok for (for example) NPC corp mission/incursion runners and explorers to pay high taxes and miners to get off scott free for being in the exact same npc corp?
Xervish Krin
Intaki Fine Stationery Solutions
#184 - 2013-01-29 18:10:47 UTC
Gathrn Manathey wrote:
As a newbie, reading through this, it looks like I am supposed to quit my NPC corp and join a player controlled corp... But I am also told not to trust anyone because of, well, everything that is EVE...
The main thrust of this topic is about being war dec. Someone, somewhere, wants to be able to pvp people who have trained up for mining instead of pvp... And instead of giving incentives to address WHY they choose to stay in NPC corps, they just want to penalize people for doing so.

For the record, I am not mining, I am trying to train up to pvp/explore, but why should the game change to fit your needs if I can't change it to fit mine?


This here is the crux of the argument and you're all ignoring it. This is one of the actual reasons people don't get out there and join a corp.

And honestly, 'don't trust anyone in Eve' is bad advice. It's not true. It's repeated over and over, I'm guessing mainly by people who got scammed once and never got over their lost space money, or by people who get a kick from convincing themselves they live in the bleakest most harshest hardcore dark universe ever.

Sure there's always a risk, but 99% of corps will either be friendly and welcoming or be inactive alts (in which case find a new corp). Very rarely will they be some kind of game-destroying trap, much less one that can't be easily avoided by not paying the 50 million 'deposit'.

But you see this kind of thing all the time. In the help channel - 'don't go to lowsec you'll be blown up instantly'. The forums will tell you 'it's impossible ever to break into null goons goons goons'. And all the grimdark types who'll insist that Eve is such a bleak harsh treacherous world that you should never do anything other than mine in 1.0. This is the message new players are getting given, by us, and we wonder why people will live in empire npc corps for years.

At the end of the day, telling newbies about how bleak and harsh Eve is with no nice people anywhere to be seen only harms the game for everyone and proves that you haven't actually played Eve - just made a bad decision and never got over the ~horrible internet trauma~.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#185 - 2013-01-29 18:13:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:
Why is it that every one must be deccable in your eyes? This seems to be the cornerstone of your argument, but you have yet to truly prove this is required by eve.


Actions should have consequences. You gain something, you should have to give up something. That's how a game is supposed to work.

The things you give up by staying in an npc corp don't even come close to what you gain in increased safety. If you are in an npc corp, NO ONE can kill you in high sec without losing their ship unless you agress 1st in some way.

In exchange for what, 11% tax on bounties and not being able to hold sov or some such? it's crazy that this has been allowed for so long.

Quote:

Also, what advantages, what rewards will you grant to those who would normally be in NPC corps to balance this new risk you wish to inflict.


Not a single one. That's really a dumb question, it's like saying "ok, i've commited a crime and you want me to go to prison, but what are you going to do to compensate me for my lack of freedom?'. Get the F outta here with that lol.

For too long people have hid in NPC corps, they should either be forced out into the real world of EVE like that 29 year old slacker living with mom, OR have to pay mom some damn rent.....

Think of the Mothers.
Hedion's oracle
Naari LLC
#186 - 2013-01-29 18:25:02 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Skeln Thargensen wrote:
March rabbit wrote:
Where is the problem?


The problem is that people have preconceived notions of how this game should be played and that it not be noob or casual friendly,



Exactly!

How many times in GD has it been posted that casual players and carebears should leave the game.

I just do not understand why so many people want high sec to be as empty as low/null?

The carebears won't magically become PVPers if the rules are changed. They will simply quit playing the game. How does that benefit those that want these changes?



Its not about being empty, its about being vulnarable, lets just pretend for a minute that infact Empire NPC corps dissappear, Miners now join player corps which in turn make them wardecable. I would bet a campaighn that would make hulkageddon look like childsplay would start to commence from certain alliances in null. The mass slaughter of highsec miners would drive ore threw the roof, not to mention ship prices. who do you think will benefit from that? You got it..... Nullsec. Not to mention what amounts to shooting fish in a barrel is player driven content? Im just glad it ain't up to these people Ugh

Error: Working As intended
Skeln Thargensen
Doomheim
#187 - 2013-01-29 18:28:30 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Skeln Thargensen wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Skeln Thargensen wrote:
March rabbit wrote:
Where is the problem?


The problem is that people have preconceived notions of how this game should be played and that it not be noob or casual friendly, even if they have an entire area of the game to play in and they choose to make it so boring that a good epic fight only happens when someone accidently hits the wrong button.


A very bad lie, one you people love to hide behind.

No one cares how you play, how long you play, what corp (NPC or otherwise) you choose to be a part of etc etc. We care about the game we play, we want the game to be internally consistent and (as a product) fair to each account holder.

We want the game they tell us is about cold harsh dark consequences to BE about that, not about silly un-EVE like protections against consequences.

The NPC corp mission runners and explorers have to "pay" for their protection from wardecs in the form of high taxes, EVERYONE in an npc corp should have to pay for that protection too.

Of course the truth and reasonableness of the above statement will fall on the deaf ears of those enjoying the unfair advantages of npc corp safety. But now is the time for change. OCCUPY NPC CORPS...

......ok wait, maybe that should be UN-OCCUPY NPC CORPS!!1


look, there's a basic problem with this that you aren't comprehending here as, like I said, people have preconceived notions about how this game should be played.

I am not an individual, there are three of me and I have jump clones. if you wardec 'me' I will either log out and play with my alt or clone jump down to null, buy some stuff in jita with an alt and contract it down to null so I can live there. if CCP nerfed NPC corps tax rate I will make a tax haven. I take glee in evasion as a metagamer.

if you want to spawntrap people play call of duty.


It's almost funny when someone claims another person isn't comprehending, while they then go on the address tings that weren't even said.

What do jump clones and spawn camping and such have to do with anything I said? Who cares what you do to avoid wardecs? When I've been wardecced I just fire up the low sec alts and lvl 5 mission run or the null sec alts and explore.

None of that is the point. The point is exactly what i said it was (fairness, both NPC corps vs everyone else and even within npc corps between mission runners/explorers and miners/haulers/traders), and what you and your like refuse to address (because you know you can't, not and keep a straight face).

If people want to "live in an NPC corp and accept the consequences (high taxes, not being able to fly certain ships, not being able to own a POS etc) in exchange for war dec immunity, that would be fine with me. What's not fine CCP providing a corporate place to avoid negative consequences FOREVER in what should be a "harsh, cold" game. A place where people can still do things that affect everyone else, but can't be affected without CONCORD intervention.

But oh no, expecting everyone to play by the same rules-set in a game is too much to ask for high sec npc corp "evaders" isn't it?

Please explain your rationale to me, and why you think it's ok for (for example) NPC corp mission/incursion runners and explorers to pay high taxes and miners to get off scott free for being in the exact same npc corp?


Mining has nothing to do with my NPC corp. It's a transaction between the refining station and the trade hub station and their respective NPC corps.

What are these rules you're on about? it an exploit to stay in my noob school? No? Against the EULA? Not? Any benefit as a miner for me to leave? none whatsoever?

Gosh it seems like the game is encouraging rational economic decisions. Fancy that!

And I am nerfed thank you. I cannot have a POS and I have this 11% tax rate. I cannot wardec others. I cannot claim sovereignty. that's the price I pay. Perhaps it could be argued that industry needs nerfing or the tax rate needs changing so player corps are more attractive but making NPC alts wardeccable is just futile for the reasons I have explained at length. We will adapt.

Now please explain why if you think this is such an awesome advantage why you aren't quitting your player corp as we speak?

forums.  serious business.
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#188 - 2013-01-29 18:40:54 UTC
Hedion's oracle wrote:
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Skeln Thargensen wrote:
March rabbit wrote:
Where is the problem?


The problem is that people have preconceived notions of how this game should be played and that it not be noob or casual friendly,



Exactly!

How many times in GD has it been posted that casual players and carebears should leave the game.

I just do not understand why so many people want high sec to be as empty as low/null?

The carebears won't magically become PVPers if the rules are changed. They will simply quit playing the game. How does that benefit those that want these changes?



Its not about being empty, its about being vulnarable


And as soon as they are vulnerable, high sec will empty. Where will the carebears go? Low Sec? Null? Nope. Unsub.

There is AMPLE opportunity to mine in non-highsec locations. I've had many friends trying to get me to go to null with promises of safety. Yeah, but then what a hassle everything becomes. Having to watch local. Docking up for days on end when a cloaky neutral decides to camp. Having to pay to have your stuff moved to market, or the hassle of getting your own jump freighter.

Who wants it to be that much work? And for what? To grind on a spud rock for a day making 1/3rd what can be made in high sec?

No thanks.

I have a wife, job, kids, house that needs maintained, cars that need repairs, grass that needs mowed, in the real world. When I play a GAME, I want to log in for a couple hours, move a couple hundred million ISK worth of minerals from belt to station, sell it on the market, put a few skills into the training queue, then log back out.


Why do so many people want me to quit playing EVE?
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#189 - 2013-01-29 18:56:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
People posting lots of words about how NPC corps should be fixed, and how to circumvent those fixes.

Best solution is still their outright removal.


I hear ganking and podding new players is the best way to increase subscriptions.

New players are the easiest to suicide gank, with EHP in unsklilled T1 frigs amounting in the low hundreds; NPC corps don't protect new players. They best protect established players in economically crushing and outpacing new players. You support NPC corps, you support hurting new players.
Sir Diablos
Requiem Knowledge
#190 - 2013-01-29 18:58:12 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Balthisus Filtch wrote:
What a sad post.

Simple solution is leave them as they are - working as intended.

Why the hell you can't just leave other people to enjoy the game as they see fit is weird. There is massive content all over the game, why the hell do you worry yourself about what people in NPC corps are doing.


Because of basic game product fairness. If I pahy a sub, can make isk and can be war decced, EVERYONE beyond the noob stage should likewsie be vulnerable to the same thing (OR their should be some massive advantage to bine in a player corp to compensate).

NPC Corps are an exampleof a lot that's wrong with High Sec and why high sec personalietes are....off. An NPC corp is litterally CCP saying to a player "YOU can come in and play the game and have an affect on everyone else, but no one can screw with YOU unless they suicide their ship or you aggress 1st".

It's BS.

Quote:

Sandbox done well means enjoying the game in an infinite number of ways. This is the absolute strength of Eve. Why you would want to narrow it would be completely counter productive - reducing player numbers.


This is worse than misunderstanding, this is a lie. There is Zero evidence that people will quit the game for anyreason except ridiculasly expensive monocles. That "carebear conventional wisdom" that people will quit the game if you change something has not only been proven false,it's been proven false RECENTLY. people swore they would quit with the NPC AI change and nerfed heavy missiles, yet I see no slackin in the carebearin.

Quote:

Encourage and recruit people from NPC corps if you are so worried they are missing out on stuff and are going to sit in NPC forever.


no on cares if they are missing out. We care that they get to affect the game (every isk they make, every min they mine affects everyone else) while being immune from retaliation. it's un-EVE-like



1 - You have the choice to join a NPC corp and enjoy these "benefits" as well. Because you make the conscious choice not to, the so-called 'vulnerabilities' that you flippantly try to use to bolster your argument are on you, not those players.

2 - You really need to double check yourself when making accusations of lies and 'misunderstandings'. The mass exodus after the release of Incarna had little to do with monocles and so much more to do with CCP taking something that wasn't broken, and then breaking it with features (CQ, no more ship hangar) that many did not want in the first place. Nobody cared about monocles short of people with nothing better to complain about.

3 - No one is immune from retaliation in Eve. This isn't WoW. If you want to retaliate on someone, then do it. Poeple have been enjoying that benefit since the game's inception, but in the last year, players who want the easy path cry to CCP to pop out the tittybottle and let them suckle themselves fat.

Best way to ruin a game

1 - Raise a big stink about something that isn't broken and cry incessantly about it in an entitled tone.
2 - Get the Devs to actually take the whine seriously.
3 - Devs patch the game for no reason, ignoring things that have been broken forever in favor of fixing something that wasn't broken just so people will shut up.

Don't believe me? Go look at Wow right now.

I sometimes have to wonder when the harshness of space was replaced with the soft foamy feel of a theme park.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#191 - 2013-01-29 19:00:43 UTC
Skeln Thargensen wrote:


Mining has nothing to do with my NPC corp. It's a transaction between the refining station and the trade hub station and their respective NPC corps.

What are these rules you're on about? it an exploit to stay in my noob school? No? Against the EULA? Not? Any benefit as a miner for me to leave? none whatsoever?

Gosh it seems like the game is encouraging rational economic decisions. Fancy that!

And I am nerfed thank you. I cannot have a POS and I have this 11% tax rate. I cannot wardec others. I cannot claim sovereignty. that's the price I pay. Perhaps it could be argued that industry needs nerfing or the tax rate needs changing so player corps are more attractive but making NPC alts wardeccable is just futile for the reasons I have explained at length. We will adapt.

Now please explain why if you think this is such an awesome advantage why you aren't quitting your player corp as we speak?


Now please go back and show me where I said npc corps should be wardeccable.

Simply, the "price you pay" is insufficient. War Dec immunity is a HUGE benefit (and like most people who benfit from something , you seem unable to understand how HUGE that advantage is).

If people want that benefit, they should have to trade more than a slightly high tax rate and no ownership of POSs etc.

As for the mining stuff, that's the kind of self-serving rationalization that prevents understanding. The whole "transaction between refining station and npc corp" stuff is just hiding from the issue.

I doubt it will ever change because so many people are making use of "Evading consequences, NPC Corp style", but it's all still very wrong. Games should not support what amounts to contradictory rules-sets.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#192 - 2013-01-29 19:02:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Quote:
Best way to ruin a game

1 - Raise a big stink about something that isn't broken and cry incessantly about it in an entitled tone.
2 - Get the Devs to actually take the whine seriously.
3 - Devs patch the game for no reason, ignoring things that have been broken forever in favor of fixing something that wasn't broken just so people will shut up.

Don't believe me? Go look at Wow right now.


I believe you, I've seen CONCORD buffs, miner bumping complaints and NPC corps already.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#193 - 2013-01-29 19:13:54 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:


Exactly!

How many times in GD has it been posted that casual players and carebears should leave the game.

I just do not understand why so many people want high sec to be as empty as low/null?


You're one of the worst ones for misunderstanding the motivations of others and you do that willfully.

No one wants anything to be empty. We want the game we play to be internally consistant.

Quote:

The carebears won't magically become PVPers if the rules are changed. They will simply quit playing the game. How does that benefit those that want these changes?


Who wants people to become PVPrs? Who will mine the ore and build the ships then?

No one wants anyone to change anything. We want them to understand the rules (EVE is a game that features non-consensual pvp) and accept them, as we do.

Quote:

And as soon as they are vulnerable, high sec will empty. Where will the carebears go? Low Sec? Null? Nope. Unsub.

There is AMPLE opportunity to mine in non-highsec locations. I've had many friends trying to get me to go to null with promises of safety. Yeah, but then what a hassle everything becomes. Having to watch local. Docking up for days on end when a cloaky neutral decides to camp. Having to pay to have your stuff moved to market, or the hassle of getting your own jump freighter.

Who wants it to be that much work? And for what? To grind on a spud rock for a day making 1/3rd what can be made in high sec?

No thanks.


Perfect example of the high sec mentality. "I want stuff but I don't want to have to do to much to get it". Change a few words around and it would be the perfect ad for getting on real life Welfare.

Quote:

I have a wife, job, kids, house that needs maintained, cars that need repairs, grass that needs mowed, in the real world. When I play a GAME, I want to log in for a couple hours, move a couple hundred million ISK worth of minerals from belt to station, sell it on the market, put a few skills into the training queue, then log back out.


Why do so many people want me to quit playing EVE?


The highlighted part is that which I absolutely despise. Not that you want to play a game casually, but that you seem to think that you should be able to do so unmolested by the people you are affecting.

You should be and ARE able to do exactly what you are doing, but the price of doing so (other than your subscription and time) means undocking and undocking means danger everywhere in EVE....but not som much in high sec and even less in high sec is you stay in an npc corp.

And that's the issue. NPC corps as they are going against what should be a core value of EVE online, that being that everyone has a basic level of vulnerability. People who chose player corps in a PLAYER DRIVEN game are forced to deal with extra headaches for no real gain. This is wrong.

EVE has quite a few backwards things like this, like clone upgrade costs that deter pvp in a pvp-centric game (a discussion being had in another thread), and EVE would be a better game without such bassackwardness.
Fey Ivory
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#194 - 2013-01-29 19:16:40 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
People posting lots of words about how NPC corps should be fixed, and how to circumvent those fixes.

Best solution is still their outright removal.


I hear ganking and podding new players is the best way to increase subscriptions.

New players are the easiest to suicide gank, with EHP in unsklilled T1 frigs amounting in the low hundreds; NPC corps don't protect new players. They best protect established players in economically crushing and outpacing new players. You support NPC corps, you support hurting new players.


I think you should spend a few days in CAS, since i started, iwe got help with fitting, or what skills to get, tips to improve, and ships to use, things to avoid and things to think about... not to mention CAS, beside its regular channel, got a combat channel a fleet mining channel... and all have organiced events, ranging from tournaments to fleetmining to fleets operaing in null... older people not only help us newer ones with tips, fitting etc, we also have round ups for getting new players jump clones... im not really sure how this is hurting me as a new player ?
Skeln Thargensen
Doomheim
#195 - 2013-01-29 19:19:19 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Skeln Thargensen wrote:


Mining has nothing to do with my NPC corp. It's a transaction between the refining station and the trade hub station and their respective NPC corps.

What are these rules you're on about? it an exploit to stay in my noob school? No? Against the EULA? Not? Any benefit as a miner for me to leave? none whatsoever?

Gosh it seems like the game is encouraging rational economic decisions. Fancy that!

And I am nerfed thank you. I cannot have a POS and I have this 11% tax rate. I cannot wardec others. I cannot claim sovereignty. that's the price I pay. Perhaps it could be argued that industry needs nerfing or the tax rate needs changing so player corps are more attractive but making NPC alts wardeccable is just futile for the reasons I have explained at length. We will adapt.

Now please explain why if you think this is such an awesome advantage why you aren't quitting your player corp as we speak?


Now please go back and show me where I said npc corps should be wardeccable.

Simply, the "price you pay" is insufficient. War Dec immunity is a HUGE benefit (and like most people who benfit from something , you seem unable to understand how HUGE that advantage is).

If people want that benefit, they should have to trade more than a slightly high tax rate and no ownership of POSs etc.

As for the mining stuff, that's the kind of self-serving rationalization that prevents understanding. The whole "transaction between refining station and npc corp" stuff is just hiding from the issue.

I doubt it will ever change because so many people are making use of "Evading consequences, NPC Corp style", but it's all still very wrong. Games should not support what amounts to contradictory rules-sets.


hey your employment history says you were in SWA for 3 years. Now I'm almost willing to believe you trialled and then subbed later as this would obviously be extremely embarrassing for you given your more recent ethos with regard to player corporations and evasion of consequences. maybe also this is an alt that languished in your account for 3 years which you suddnly got the urge to train up. these things do happen.

I'm just not sure if you can prove it.

forums.  serious business.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#196 - 2013-01-29 19:22:15 UTC
Sir Diablos wrote:


1 - You have the choice to join a NPC corp and enjoy these "benefits" as well. Because you make the conscious choice not to, the so-called 'vulnerabilities' that you flippantly try to use to bolster your argument are on you, not those players.


The choice to join a PLAYER corp in a multiPLAYER gamer should be the encouraged choice, not the discouraged one. The choice to stay in a NPC corp in a game about the players should be available, but come at a stepper cost than it does now.

Quote:

2 - You really need to double check yourself when making accusations of lies and 'misunderstandings'. The mass exodus after the release of Incarna had little to do with monocles and so much more to do with CCP taking something that wasn't broken, and then breaking it with features (CQ, no more ship hangar) that many did not want in the first place. Nobody cared about monocles short of people with nothing better to complain about.


That's an overly simplistic view of what happened. The rage was about direction of the game. CCP did't "Fix something that wasn't broken" with captains quarters, those things didn't exist before then.

Quote:

3 - No one is immune from retaliation in Eve. This isn't WoW. If you want to retaliate on someone, then do it. Poeple have been enjoying that benefit since the game's inception, but in the last year, players who want the easy path cry to CCP to pop out the tittybottle and let them suckle themselves fat.


Another misunderstanding of what is bieng said.

No one said you can't retaliate, but the cost of doing so is uneven. NPC corp players get to do almost as much as we do, but don't have to put up with the worst stuff like War Decs.

I was basically FORCED to put my incursion runner alt into an npc corp because you can't be in a high sec incursion fleet while war decced unless you wanna give all your logistics Space Aids. A game about players should NEVER force such a choice upon you IMO.

Quote:

Best way to ruin a game

1 - Raise a big stink about something that isn't broken and cry incessantly about it in an entitled tone.
2 - Get the Devs to actually take the whine seriously.
3 - Devs patch the game for no reason, ignoring things that have been broken forever in favor of fixing something that wasn't broken just so people will shut up.

Don't believe me? Go look at Wow right now.


No thanks, 4 months of wow was all I could stomach.

But you're wrong, it is broken (broken as in unfair), and ccp should fix it.
Sir Diablos
Requiem Knowledge
#197 - 2013-01-29 19:25:46 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Quote:
Best way to ruin a game

1 - Raise a big stink about something that isn't broken and cry incessantly about it in an entitled tone.
2 - Get the Devs to actually take the whine seriously.
3 - Devs patch the game for no reason, ignoring things that have been broken forever in favor of fixing something that wasn't broken just so people will shut up.

Don't believe me? Go look at Wow right now.


I believe you, I've seen CONCORD buffs, miner bumping complaints and NPC corps already.


Please show me where CCP took away the ability to gank. Which patch was that? The fact that you cite miners complaining about being bumped, instead of the once copious amounts of tears about being ganked, only shows how the community need the game made easier for them at the expense of others. I support your right to gank, I do not support your desire to remove sand from the box because Eve is too hard now.

Jenn aSide wrote:
LHA Tarawa wrote:

I have a wife, job, kids, house that needs maintained, cars that need repairs, grass that needs mowed, in the real world. When I play a GAME, I want to log in for a couple hours, move a couple hundred million ISK worth of minerals from belt to station, sell it on the market, put a few skills into the training queue, then log back out.


Why do so many people want me to quit playing EVE?


The highlighted part is that which I absolutely despise. Not that you want to play a game casually, but that you seem to think that you should be able to do so unmolested by the people you are affecting.

You should be and ARE able to do exactly what you are doing, but the price of doing so (other than your subscription and time) means undocking and undocking means danger everywhere in EVE....but not som much in high sec and even less in high sec is you stay in an npc corp.

And that's the issue. NPC corps as they are going against what should be a core value of EVE online, that being that everyone has a basic level of vulnerability. People who chose player corps in a PLAYER DRIVEN game are forced to deal with extra headaches for no real gain. This is wrong.

EVE has quite a few backwards things like this, like clone upgrade costs that deter pvp in a pvp-centric game (a discussion being had in another thread), and EVE would be a better game without such bassackwardness.


In that highlighted section, I need you to highlight the part where he said that he is entitled to do all that unmolested. Then I'll give you credit where it is due. Otherwise, you are just one more person in a long line of them who are willing to destroy parts of a game to serve YOUR purposes, not make the game better for everyone.

I sometimes have to wonder when the harshness of space was replaced with the soft foamy feel of a theme park.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#198 - 2013-01-29 19:27:56 UTC
Fey Ivory wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
People posting lots of words about how NPC corps should be fixed, and how to circumvent those fixes.

Best solution is still their outright removal.


I hear ganking and podding new players is the best way to increase subscriptions.

New players are the easiest to suicide gank, with EHP in unsklilled T1 frigs amounting in the low hundreds; NPC corps don't protect new players. They best protect established players in economically crushing and outpacing new players. You support NPC corps, you support hurting new players.


I think you should spend a few days in CAS, since i started, iwe got help with fitting, or what skills to get, tips to improve, and ships to use, things to avoid and things to think about... not to mention CAS, beside its regular channel, got a combat channel a fleet mining channel... and all have organiced events, ranging from tournaments to fleetmining to fleets operaing in null... older people not only help us newer ones with tips, fitting etc, we also have round ups for getting new players jump clones... im not really sure how this is hurting me as a new player ?

Chat channels can exist independently of the other, game-damaging features afforded by NPC corp mechanics.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#199 - 2013-01-29 19:34:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Skeln Thargensen wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Skeln Thargensen wrote:


Mining has nothing to do with my NPC corp. It's a transaction between the refining station and the trade hub station and their respective NPC corps.

What are these rules you're on about? it an exploit to stay in my noob school? No? Against the EULA? Not? Any benefit as a miner for me to leave? none whatsoever?

Gosh it seems like the game is encouraging rational economic decisions. Fancy that!

And I am nerfed thank you. I cannot have a POS and I have this 11% tax rate. I cannot wardec others. I cannot claim sovereignty. that's the price I pay. Perhaps it could be argued that industry needs nerfing or the tax rate needs changing so player corps are more attractive but making NPC alts wardeccable is just futile for the reasons I have explained at length. We will adapt.

Now please explain why if you think this is such an awesome advantage why you aren't quitting your player corp as we speak?


Now please go back and show me where I said npc corps should be wardeccable.

Simply, the "price you pay" is insufficient. War Dec immunity is a HUGE benefit (and like most people who benfit from something , you seem unable to understand how HUGE that advantage is).

If people want that benefit, they should have to trade more than a slightly high tax rate and no ownership of POSs etc.

As for the mining stuff, that's the kind of self-serving rationalization that prevents understanding. The whole "transaction between refining station and npc corp" stuff is just hiding from the issue.

I doubt it will ever change because so many people are making use of "Evading consequences, NPC Corp style", but it's all still very wrong. Games should not support what amounts to contradictory rules-sets.


hey your employment history says you were in SWA for 3 years. Now I'm almost willing to believe you trialled and then subbed later as this would obviously be extremely embarrassing for you given your more recent ethos with regard to player corporations and evasion of consequences. maybe also this is an alt that languished in your account for 3 years which you suddnly got the urge to train up. these things do happen.

I'm just not sure if you can prove it.


What exactly are you talking about. This is one toon out of 12 I own on 4 accounts, and was simply a jita alt till I sold my main. There was no reason to move it until it became my defacto main.

I have 2 toons in npc corps right now for Incursion Fleets and High Sec exploration. The current situation is wrong, but then so was FW farming and I got RICH off it lol.

What this means is I'm willing to accept a nerf to npc corps that I participate in ( and thus my income) for the greater good of the game and community.

Are you? Or are you too selfish?
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#200 - 2013-01-29 19:38:01 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
No one wants anyone to change anything. We want them to understand the rules (EVE is a game that features non-consensual pvp) and accept them, as we do.


Really? Because I thought the OP was asking for a chnge to NPC corps.

I didn't see anyone in this thread asking for changes to suicide ganking. I am pretty content with how the game works now.

AND, my mains (all 4 of them) are not in NPC corps. I run a POS, so I'm in a player corp of just my toons. That corp is a member of a larger alliance of carebears. If a war dec comes in, I just don't undock for the week. If it continues a second week, then my mains drop out leaving one alt in the corp to hold it open.



Jenn aSide wrote:
Perfect example of the high sec mentality. "I want stuff but I don't want to have to do to much to get it". Change a few words around and it would be the perfect ad for getting on real life Welfare.


This is a GAME! Real life, I've never even collected an unemployment check, let alone a welfare check.

In the game? FU. I don't have to be a target so you can grow your Epeen blowing up my ship. Go fight someone that is reading and interested in a fight instead of playing forum warrior trying to convince CCP to change the rules to drive 80% of their paid accounts out of the game.


Jenn aSide wrote:

Not that you want to play a game casually, but that you seem to think that you should be able to do so unmolested by the people you are affecting.

You should be and ARE able to do exactly what you are doing, but the price of doing so (other than your subscription and time) means undocking and undocking means danger everywhere in EVE....but not som much in high sec and even less in high sec is you stay in an npc corp.



Yeah. People can suicide gank me. Find ONE post from me complaining about that. GO ahead.. look all day. You won't find one.

Jenn aSide wrote:

And that's the issue. NPC corps as they are going against what should be a core value of EVE online, that being that everyone has a basic level of vulnerability. People who chose player corps in a PLAYER DRIVEN game are forced to deal with extra headaches for no real gain. This is wrong.

EVE has quite a few backwards things like this, like clone upgrade costs that deter pvp in a pvp-centric game (a discussion being had in another thread), and EVE would be a better game without such bassackwardness.


Take away the current level of invulnerability, and I'll quit the game, and so will hundreds of thousands of thousands of other subscribers.

CCP had to put these things "makes it hard to F with people" things into the game to grow the customer base to the current level that it is. They know this. They know that if they take it away, they go bankrupt!


Why do you want high sec to become as empty as low and null.. for the few months that EVE would continue to operate between chasing out the carebears and CCP shutting down?


EVE may be about F'n with people to you. But if they make it any easier for people to F with me, I'm out.... which is why they aren't going to do that.