These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
Previous page123Next page
 

Another look on stealth (cloak-using) ships mechanic
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Willow corpus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#21 - 2013-01-29 16:12:07 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Willow corpus wrote:
I dont know what needs done, but I know that it would greatly effect me and my friends in eve if we could combat somebody locking down our ratting system

Here is your real problem.

You want to PvE, in your case ratting.

Because Local Chat is available to all pilots, they all use it. Specifically the pilot roster that perfectly lists and updates all pilots present in the current system.

Defensively, it is a great tool to warn you with trivial effort that something dangerous is in the system. If you plan around this, you can be aligned to warp, and this will tell you exactly when to warp.
A hostile has no chance of catching you, when you are alert and act as intended.

Offensively, the hunter also knows exactly who is present in the system. They may not be able to find you, but they know with absolute certainty that you are present. Forget about hiding, and fooling them into leaving. Your secret is out, and they have the option of waiting for you.

AFK Cloaking, as it is often referred to, is nothing more than the offensive aspect acting as the supporting intel for a waiting game. Nature has examples of predators, who having found prey, simply wait for them to stick their head out so they can pounce.

To stop the cycle, you must create uncertainty. So long as they are absolutely aware of targets present, it is always a valid tactic to ambush them. Patience is necessary, apparently, so they sit cloaked and wait.

On the flip side, it is also overpowered to know with certainty a cloaked vessel is present, and also be able to hunt them.
You can hunt non cloaking vessels since they are balanced for up front PvP, and the devs intended this for them.





Are you trying to say they should remove local?

Sure go ahead, and when everyone stops ratting in nullsec and just jumpclones to hisec to do incursions, people will ***** that there is no one at all to kill in nullsec except when it comes time to take sov or fight timers.



Risk v reward, my current way of ratting in nullsec only puts me slightly ahead of getting in a nightmare and doing incursions where I would be as safe as it gets in eve.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#22 - 2013-01-29 16:18:20 UTC
Willow corpus wrote:
Are you trying to say they should remove local?

Sure go ahead, and when everyone stops ratting in nullsec and just jumpclones to hisec to do incursions, people will ***** that there is no one at all to kill in nullsec except when it comes time to take sov or fight timers.



Risk v reward, my current way of ratting in nullsec only puts me slightly ahead of getting in a nightmare and doing incursions where I would be as safe as it gets in eve.

I am sorry if you feel entitled to having local and this play style, but if you are not willing to operate in a group, you should consider flying in high security space.

High security is meant to favor solo play, or simply groups not capable or willing to risk activity in low / null.

Low sec is meant to favor smaller groups and short term events.

Null sec is meant to favor larger groups and continuously sustained sov holding.

Using Local Chat to fly solo effectively outside of high sec, and then complaining about legitimate gameplay tactics countering this, well, that's what you imply you are doing now.

I am not convinced you have a legitimate claim, as documented above.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#23 - 2013-01-29 16:28:07 UTC
Willow corpus wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Willow corpus wrote:
I dont know what needs done, but I know that it would greatly effect me and my friends in eve if we could combat somebody locking down our ratting system

Here is your real problem.

You want to PvE, in your case ratting.

Because Local Chat is available to all pilots, they all use it. Specifically the pilot roster that perfectly lists and updates all pilots present in the current system.

Defensively, it is a great tool to warn you with trivial effort that something dangerous is in the system. If you plan around this, you can be aligned to warp, and this will tell you exactly when to warp.
A hostile has no chance of catching you, when you are alert and act as intended.

Offensively, the hunter also knows exactly who is present in the system. They may not be able to find you, but they know with absolute certainty that you are present. Forget about hiding, and fooling them into leaving. Your secret is out, and they have the option of waiting for you.

AFK Cloaking, as it is often referred to, is nothing more than the offensive aspect acting as the supporting intel for a waiting game. Nature has examples of predators, who having found prey, simply wait for them to stick their head out so they can pounce.

To stop the cycle, you must create uncertainty. So long as they are absolutely aware of targets present, it is always a valid tactic to ambush them. Patience is necessary, apparently, so they sit cloaked and wait.

On the flip side, it is also overpowered to know with certainty a cloaked vessel is present, and also be able to hunt them.
You can hunt non cloaking vessels since they are balanced for up front PvP, and the devs intended this for them.





Are you trying to say they should remove local?

Sure go ahead, and when everyone stops ratting in nullsec and just jumpclones to hisec to do incursions, people will ***** that there is no one at all to kill in nullsec except when it comes time to take sov or fight timers.



Risk v reward, my current way of ratting in nullsec only puts me slightly ahead of getting in a nightmare and doing incursions where I would be as safe as it gets in eve.


all the solo ratters in null sec will come to hi-sec, cause thats where they really belong. those players that know how to work together effectively and protect eachother will still thrive in null.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Willow corpus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#24 - 2013-01-29 16:37:12 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Willow corpus wrote:
Are you trying to say they should remove local?

Sure go ahead, and when everyone stops ratting in nullsec and just jumpclones to hisec to do incursions, people will ***** that there is no one at all to kill in nullsec except when it comes time to take sov or fight timers.



Risk v reward, my current way of ratting in nullsec only puts me slightly ahead of getting in a nightmare and doing incursions where I would be as safe as it gets in eve.

I am sorry if you feel entitled to having local and this play style, but if you are not willing to operate in a group, you should consider flying in high security space.

High security is meant to favor solo play, or simply groups not capable or willing to risk activity in low / null.

Low sec is meant to favor smaller groups and short term events.

Null sec is meant to favor larger groups and continuously sustained sov holding.

Using Local Chat to fly solo effectively outside of high sec, and then complaining about legitimate gameplay tactics countering this, well, that's what you imply you are doing now.

I am not convinced you have a legitimate claim, as documented above.



Hisec is for soloplay? what is incursions bro?

DO I FEEL ENTITLED to have local in null? ofcourse lol it is there should I place duck tape over it or minimize it so I feel like a rebel?


Do you feel entitled to have a cloak? lol entitlement questions are absurd when talking about the inplace game mechanics
Mag's
Azn Empire
#25 - 2013-01-29 16:42:15 UTC
Cron Moonvexor wrote:
Mag's wrote:
let's find the reason for AFKing first

Maybe the reason is like: "stealth pilots can afford themselves afking for many hours in cloak because they know, that they are invulnerable with it' ?
in spite of CCP's rule: "You cannot be in safety anywhere, except dock"
Blink
Yes but if you wish to use the 'He's invulnerable.' card, then it must apply both ways. For when he is, you are.

Cron Moonvexor wrote:
Mag's wrote:
So again, what mechanic are they using to interact with you whilst they may be AFK?

You know the answer on that simple question, bro.
But I personally cannot guess right if the stealth pilot afk or not right now. So I must accept an assumption that 'he is not afk' as 100% truth. Probably, I deceive myself.
Didn't answered the question though, did you? Whether they are AFK or not, the question remains.

So if you find this question so hard, I'll change it once again.

When someone is in the system cloaked, what mechanic are they using to interact with you?

Better?

Cron Moonvexor wrote:
step-by-step.
Stealth-hunters can sit in cloak many hours because carebears can sit in dock or under force field many hours... Ok, that is 'balance'.
But why carebears sit in docks, how do you think?
What carebears can do to you when u a cloaked and they are undocked?
If both sides appear in space - who can attack first?
a) Stealth-pilot in cloak can be attacked by non-stealth pilot in open space when non-stealth pilot wants it.
b) Non-stealth pilot in open space can be attacked by stealth pilot when stealth pilot wants it.
c) Dunno, I need call to a friend.

Supposing, CCP adds cloak-scanning equipment to the game. If you playing the game and not afk, you easily detect scanning activity and warp away, just dissolve in solar system. Nothing changes for you.
But I can get some info about your activity, and I have no need to deceive myself.
Yea you need to help yourself and others in your Alliance. That's the price you pay for wanting a null sec life.

Now time to answer that question. Big smile

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#26 - 2013-01-29 16:48:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Willow corpus wrote:
DO I FEEL ENTITLED to have local in null? ofcourse lol it is there should I place duck tape over it or minimize it so I feel like a rebel?
Sure, but then others are ENTITLED to use it against you. Blink

Cron Moonvexor wrote:
lol entitlement questions are absurd when talking about the inplace game mechanics
Not at all, he is merely pointing out the flaw in the self entitlement that you and your ilk have with these threads.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Willow corpus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#27 - 2013-01-29 16:59:54 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Willow corpus wrote:
DO I FEEL ENTITLED to have local in null? ofcourse lol it is there should I place duck tape over it or minimize it so I feel like a rebel?
Sure, but then others are ENTITLED to use it against you. Blink

Cron Moonvexor wrote:
lol entitlement questions are absurd when talking about the inplace game mechanics
Not at all, he is merely pointing out the flaw in the self entitlement that you and your ilk have with these threads.


You can rag on me all you want and say that I am risk averse and belong in hisec (it might even be true, I have only slightly higher then 100 kills this month, but realize this that if local was removed I would give it an honest try still ratting in null)


Probably would cost me some ships and then when I need more isk I will just jc into a multibil is clone and use my multi bil nightmare to safely make isk. Which would mean that atleast one more person in the game would be in hisec for quite a large amount of there online time.

So more players in hisec would ofcourse cause there to be even less players in null , less players in null (less ccp cares about it)



I am all for making nullsec harder... but at what cost?

If I can make isk safely and effectively (sometimes even more so if I mine on alt accounts while I am doing incursions. Then why bother ratting in null?



As it stand now I have lost ships ratting thats ok, I like how null is with the current afk cloaker annoyance (I would prefer if they wherent making me switch systems but it is ok)



Mag's
Azn Empire
#28 - 2013-01-29 17:04:53 UTC
Willow corpus wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Willow corpus wrote:
DO I FEEL ENTITLED to have local in null? ofcourse lol it is there should I place duck tape over it or minimize it so I feel like a rebel?
Sure, but then others are ENTITLED to use it against you. Blink

Cron Moonvexor wrote:
lol entitlement questions are absurd when talking about the inplace game mechanics
Not at all, he is merely pointing out the flaw in the self entitlement that you and your ilk have with these threads.


You can rag on me all you want and say that I am risk averse and belong in hisec (it might even be true, I have only slightly higher then 100 kills this month, but realize this that if local was removed I would give it an honest try still ratting in null)


Probably would cost me some ships and then when I need more isk I will just jc into a multibil is clone and use my multi bil nightmare to safely make isk. Which would mean that atleast one more person in the game would be in hisec for quite a large amount of there online time.

So more players in hisec would ofcourse cause there to be even less players in null , less players in null (less ccp cares about it)



I am all for making nullsec harder... but at what cost?

If I can make isk safely and effectively (sometimes even more so if I mine on alt accounts while I am doing incursions. Then why bother ratting in null?



As it stand now I have lost ships ratting thats ok, I like how null is with the current afk cloaker annoyance (I would prefer if they wherent making me switch systems but it is ok)



I'm not 'ragging' on you at all. I and others like Nikk and Daichi, are merely pointing out the flaws in these types of threads. They always focus on the effect, but never the cause.

I'm sure I can speak for all, when I say we wouldn't advocate a complete removal of local, without a package of changes to take it's place. This would include changes to cloaks.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Random Majere
Rogue Fleet
#29 - 2013-01-29 17:20:23 UTC
Jint Hikaru wrote:
When hunting in Zero sec space, its difficult for cloaked vessels to find targest because they all scurry away to POS Shields / Outposts and Stations. .


You should just roam with a ship that does not use cloacks. You will realize that those ratters you just scared off can swap into a PvP ship relatively fast knowing that they can catch you.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#30 - 2013-01-29 17:22:40 UTC
Random Majere wrote:
Jint Hikaru wrote:
When hunting in Zero sec space, its difficult for cloaked vessels to find targest because they all scurry away to POS Shields / Outposts and Stations. .


You should just roam with a ship that does not use cloacks. You will realize that those ratters you just scared off can swap into a PvP ship relatively fast knowing that they can catch you.
Knowing they can blob you, more like.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#31 - 2013-01-29 17:23:23 UTC
Mag's wrote:
I'm not 'ragging' on you at all. I and others like Nikk and Daichi, are merely pointing out the flaws in these types of threads. They always focus on the effect, but never the cause.

I'm sure I can speak for all, when I say we wouldn't advocate a complete removal of local, without a package of changes to take it's place. This would include changes to cloaks.

Absolutely correct.

Having flawless presence awareness in a game denies any tactic that relies on uncertainty or stealth.

It lowers the bar on gameplay, forcing either blob tactics or stalemates with both sides perfectly aware of each other.

Anti cloaking threads amount to complaints over a hunter not leaving a place. A place where local chat has clearly defined the presence of their prey.
So they wait.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Random Majere
Rogue Fleet
#32 - 2013-01-29 17:34:07 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Random Majere wrote:
Jint Hikaru wrote:
When hunting in Zero sec space, its difficult for cloaked vessels to find targest because they all scurry away to POS Shields / Outposts and Stations. .


You should just roam with a ship that does not use cloacks. You will realize that those ratters you just scared off can swap into a PvP ship relatively fast knowing that they can catch you.
Knowing they can blob you, more like.


Just bring a few friends. You can hide behind them if things go bad. Smile
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#33 - 2013-01-29 17:38:24 UTC
Mag's wrote:

i'm not 'ragging' on you at all. I and others like Nikk and Daichi, are merely pointing out the flaws in these types of threads. They always focus on the effect, but never the cause.

I'm sure I can speak for all, when I say we wouldn't advocate a complete removal of local, without a package of changes to take it's place. This would include changes to cloaks.


indeed.

right now i see it at lose-lose. cloakers can evade indefintaley and PvE is riskless. but at least its balanced (as i'm sure nikk is tired of saying).

remove local, make cloakers detectable and i think its win-win, whilst keeping the balance. to make one change without the other would create a win-lose that would be an imbalance.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Random Majere
Rogue Fleet
#34 - 2013-01-29 17:43:49 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:

Anti cloaking threads amount to complaints over a hunter not leaving a place. A place where local chat has clearly defined the presence of their prey.
So they wait.


Most of the time they do not wait....They just go AFK (even leave the house).
Willow corpus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#35 - 2013-01-29 17:46:14 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Mag's wrote:

i'm not 'ragging' on you at all. I and others like Nikk and Daichi, are merely pointing out the flaws in these types of threads. They always focus on the effect, but never the cause.

I'm sure I can speak for all, when I say we wouldn't advocate a complete removal of local, without a package of changes to take it's place. This would include changes to cloaks.


indeed.

right now i see it at lose-lose. cloakers can evade indefintaley and PvE is riskless. but at least its balanced (as i'm sure nikk is tired of saying).

remove local, make cloakers detectable and i think its win-win, whilst keeping the balance. to make one change without the other would create a win-lose that would be an imbalance.



It would be interesting but, I think all that would cause is more people to just run incursions or do missions when they need isk. I dont see how it benefits cloakers if all of there prey moved to a safer location because the risks become so much higher
Ildryn
IDLE INTENTIONS
#36 - 2013-01-29 17:53:52 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Cron Moonvexor wrote:
Nikk Narrel
They use mechanic of imba-invulnerability, so I can't interact with them. Except for chatting in local.

So you say.

Yet you imply that you are aware of their presence, despite the fact they seem to be AFK, and also hidden from your sensors by a cloak.
This suggests they did nothing to notify others in the system they were present, as well as showing that you did not detect them with any efforts on your part.

How is this possible? Who or what informed you a cloaked vessel was present in this manner?


He jumped into system and quickly cloaked and our scouts have not seen him leave the system.
Therefore he must still be in system.

Local chat aside there are other ways of knowing a pilot is in your system (even if afk)
So nerf cloaks and get it over with.
The devs have already stated they don't like how people can afk-cloak while at work and then attack when they come home.

Nerf cloaks and block all the assholes that are saying nerf local.
Local exists because it is New Eden and uses gates.
Wormholes don't have local...why...Because it is not New Eden.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#37 - 2013-01-29 18:07:42 UTC
Ildryn wrote:
The devs have already stated they don't like how people can afk-cloak while at work and then attack when they come home.
Have they? May we have a link to that?

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#38 - 2013-01-29 18:23:10 UTC
Willow corpus wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Mag's wrote:

i'm not 'ragging' on you at all. I and others like Nikk and Daichi, are merely pointing out the flaws in these types of threads. They always focus on the effect, but never the cause.

I'm sure I can speak for all, when I say we wouldn't advocate a complete removal of local, without a package of changes to take it's place. This would include changes to cloaks.


indeed.

right now i see it at lose-lose. cloakers can evade indefintaley and PvE is riskless. but at least its balanced (as i'm sure nikk is tired of saying).

remove local, make cloakers detectable and i think its win-win, whilst keeping the balance. to make one change without the other would create a win-lose that would be an imbalance.



It would be interesting but, I think all that would cause is more people to just run incursions or do missions when they need isk. I dont see how it benefits cloakers if all of there prey moved to a safer location because the risks become so much higher


i dnt see a problem with more ppl running missions and incursions. they at least have to use team work for incursions (fair enough its not super risky) or accept a lesser income from missions.

i dnt see a problem with less ppl in null. alliances grow fat on null bears grinding for them and then (like u say) dnt even defend them when they come under attack. take away local takes away the null bears; take away the null bears takes away the alliances that use others as pets. the only ones remaining will be those whom deserve to be there. the ones who truly fleet up to rat and mine, with anti-cloaking patrols to protect border systems and rapid response teams on standby.

those unable to protect their assets well or respond to threats will be muscled out by those who can. sounds about right to me.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#39 - 2013-01-29 18:24:05 UTC
Willow corpus wrote:
It would be interesting but, I think all that would cause is more people to just run incursions or do missions when they need isk. I dont see how it benefits cloakers if all of there prey moved to a safer location because the risks become so much higher

All their prey?

Hardly.

Just the ones who never come out to fight in the first place.
There is no difference between a pilot who won't PvP, and a pilot who is not present.
Therefore, the loss does not exist.


Ildryn wrote:
Nerf cloaks and block all the assholes that are saying nerf local.
Local exists because it is New Eden and uses gates.
Wormholes don't have local...why...Because it is not New Eden.

Wormholes also do not have:
*Stable entry / exit points
*Outposts for docking
*Market access
*Ships above a certain mass, as specific to each type

Comparing WH space to regular space is quite disingenuous when you leave out how completely different they are.
It is not simply the absence of Local Chat's pilot roster.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Random Majere
Rogue Fleet
#40 - 2013-01-29 18:31:11 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
anti-cloaking patrols to protect border systems and rapid response teams on standby.



LOL
Previous page123Next page