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Dread blapping

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Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#241 - 2013-01-29 02:22:21 UTC
Bane Nucleus wrote:
People keep saying that the Moros needs a tracking nerf, but does that even matter when your target is essentially painted to the size of a battleship and NOT moving due to webs?
*Keep in mind I do not fly dreads. *

it doesnt, rev can blap just fine for example.

hence the call to address dread blapping, not nerf the moros.

(note that the moros DOES also need to be brought in line with the other dreads but that's a seperate issue that will likely be addressed when cap balancing comes into the current balance cycle anyway.)

There is no Bob.

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Infinite Force
#242 - 2013-01-29 07:48:27 UTC
Okay, I'll throw in my 2 cents ...

Dread blapping - as it's called - is a needed "home-field" advantage that smaller corps / alliances need.

There have been a number of proposed 'counters' to this already posted in this thread.

-1 to nerfing

+1 to bringing all the dreads up to the Moro's level.

HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud

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Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#243 - 2013-01-29 08:46:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Jack Miton
Infinite Force wrote:
Dread blapping - as it's called - is a needed "home-field" advantage that smaller corps / alliances need.

you know, this comment has been posted several times now so could someone please link me an example of where a smaller corp used dreads to defend their turf against a larger attacking corp/alliance?

i have literally never, and i mean ever, seen a small force use dreads to hold their own vs a larger force.
in my experience they all either try to engage with what they have using tactics to take on numbers, or run away, or call in friends.

the only people ive seen use dread blapping to win fights are groups who have the numbers to fight without them just fine.
(many examples have already been posted, i mean people like aharm, exhale, norcorp, hard knocks ect.)

obviously i havnt fought everyone who's out there with dreads so maybe i just havnt run into these brave small defending corps.
if these small corps that will engage with small numbers really do exist then i want to meet them because WH space needs more of you.

There is no Bob.

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Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#244 - 2013-01-29 08:55:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Gypsio III
Infinite Force wrote:
Okay, I'll throw in my 2 cents ...

Dread blapping - as it's called - is a needed "home-field" advantage that smaller corps / alliances need.


Without getting into whether blapping is desirable or not, please explain why larger corps/alliances cannot use dread blapping, as you suggest.
Terrorfrodo
Interbus Universal
#245 - 2013-01-29 10:07:28 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:
obviously i havnt fought everyone who's out there with dreads so maybe i just havnt run into these brave small defending corps.
if these small corps that will engage with small numbers really do exist then i want to meet them because WH space needs more of you.

I've seen it... once. We engaged a small corp that only had three pilots online, probably only two players. And they fielded a Moros, a triage Archon and a Vigilant against our ~12 man fleet. Now 12 isn't that much either, but they couldn't be sure that this would be all we had when they committed their caps. They blapped one of our ships and we had to retreat. The name of the corp was "Iron BaIIs" and they lived up to it Big smile

Other than that one time though, I've never seen or heard of such corps either.

.
Winthorp
#246 - 2013-01-29 10:10:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Winthorp
Jack Miton wrote:
Infinite Force wrote:
Dread blapping - as it's called - is a needed "home-field" advantage that smaller corps / alliances need.

you know, this comment has been posted several times now so could someone please link me an example of where a smaller corp used dreads to defend their turf against a larger attacking corp/alliance?

i have literally never, and i mean ever, seen a small force use dreads to hold their own vs a larger force.
in my experience they all either try to engage with what they have using tactics to take on numbers, or run away, or call in friends.

the only people ive seen use dread blapping to win fights are groups who have the numbers to fight without them just fine.
(many examples have already been posted, i mean people like aharm, exhale, norcorp, hard knocks ect.)

obviously i havnt fought everyone who's out there with dreads so maybe i just havnt run into these brave small defending corps.
if these small corps that will engage with small numbers really do exist then i want to meet them because WH space needs more of you.


Yeah i will call you on that with the below link. Initially there was no caps involved in this fight and the "small" corp got jumped by us and to win the fight in their home WH they warped in cap after cap. This move alone had them winning the fight initially and we had to withdraw, their dreads did indeed save them until we got a convo from VOC to get in on the action and then they died horribly.

http://fcftw.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=15306759

I am sure trolls will poke holes in it to turn the argument back to nerfing dreads but there are many smaller groups willing to use dreads and caps to fight.

The folks in C6 space that have stated their WH engagements are stagnent because of dread overuse should note that no one is telling them to stay in C6 space, you are not stuck there your homes can be moved and you can come back to C5 space where we all have a great time and don't roll into the same three other alliances every second day. But if your not willing to change then you can't change the game to suit your needs.
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#247 - 2013-01-29 11:06:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Jack Miton
Winthorp wrote:
http://fcftw.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=15306759

mate, they brought dreads to kill your moros, not to blap subcaps.
by my count there were 2 webs in their entire fleet. warping dreads in to kill an attacking dread is not what this discussion is about at all.

Terrorfrodo wrote:
I've seen it... once. We engaged a small corp that only had three pilots online, probably only two players. And they fielded a Moros, a triage Archon and a Vigilant against our ~12 man fleet. Now 12 isn't that much either, but they couldn't be sure that this would be all we had when they committed their caps. They blapped one of our ships and we had to retreat. The name of the corp was "Iron BaIIs" and they lived up to it Big smile
Other than that one time though, I've never seen or heard of such corps either.

fair enough, nice example.
props to those guys too. few people will do things like that :)

Winthorp wrote:
The folks in C6 space that have stated their WH engagements are stagnent because of dread overuse should note that no one is telling them to stay in C6 space, you are not stuck there your homes can be moved and you can come back to C5 space where we all have a great time and don't roll into the same three other alliances every second day. But if your not willing to change then you can't change the game to suit your needs.

ive lived in C5s, theyre no different than C6s in this regard.

There is no Bob.

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Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#248 - 2013-01-29 11:22:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Those shades you're wearing sure have a nice rose tint to them.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Winthorp
#249 - 2013-01-29 11:24:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Winthorp
Jack Miton wrote:
mate, they brought dreads to kill your moros, not to blap subcaps.
by my count there were 2 webs in their entire fleet. warping dreads in to kill an attacking dread is not what this discussion is about at all.


Your question though Jack was nothing to do with subcaps or dread blapping though. Roll Maybe if i thought you would change the question after you ask it i would post something different....

Perhaps go reread it yourself before you become one of those trolls i mentioned that will pick holes to bring the topic back to dread blapping nerfs.
Reimik
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#250 - 2013-01-29 13:58:18 UTC
It hasn't happened recently but when I was with Shen's Heroes in a c5-c5 wormhole we used dreads on multiple occasions plus webs to defend ourselves against large attacking forces. Twice while we were in a site making money as well as on wormholes. We used multiple dreads when were were finally kicked out by Future Corp in Sleeper Social Club in which we lost most of them but we did take some down with us. =D
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#251 - 2013-01-29 14:16:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Rroff
Jack Miton wrote:
Infinite Force wrote:
Dread blapping - as it's called - is a needed "home-field" advantage that smaller corps / alliances need.

you know, this comment has been posted several times now so could someone please link me an example of where a smaller corp used dreads to defend their turf against a larger attacking corp/alliance?


Its a bit cheeky and not really intended as a counter to your point but theres atleast 2 instances I can think of - some guys from engarde IIRC twice held off 30-40 man attacking fleets with a moros, loki, rorqual and archon until on the 3rd time someone finally killed them and theres also that incident with lords servant where he multi boxed carrier/dread/tackle against a much larger attacking force and IIRC inflicted more damage than it cost him tho he finally lost his ships.


EDIT: Found it :D http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=14489060
Meytal
Doomheim
#252 - 2013-01-29 14:36:04 UTC
There is a Flash-based calculator that can be used to show chance to hit based on various factors, including transversal vs tracking. It can give you a better idea than just staring at numbers that sometimes seem a bit abstract.

Using the numbers quoted in this thread so far, a Moros with 0.02063 rad/s tracking can track a target moving up to 391.97 m/s at its optimal of 19 km (+19km), and a Rev with 0.01544 rad/s can track a target moving up to 355.12 m/s at its optimal of 23 km (+13km). This doesn't mean a guaranteed hit, since target sig radius has a huge impact as well.

A Guardian hull has 70m sig radius and top speed of 209 m/s, and a Bhaal hull has a 400m sig radius with top speed of 101 m/s. If we pick those numbers as a reference and assume that both ships are moving at their stated max velocity fully transversal to the dreads, neither ship has a prayer of hit htting an unmodified Guardian, but both will probably get an unmodified Bhaal in a few shots:

Moros: 79.71% chance to hit a Bhaal at 23.27 km
Rev: 73.3% chance to hit a Bhaal at 25.64 km

Ignoring the damage differences, the Moros and the Rev are comparable at least as far as ability to hit targets. I'm not a cap pilot, and I don't know the conditions surrounding the tracking and optimal of the two Dreads, but that seems like a pretty high chance without webs or painters for a ship aimed at anti-capital warfare to hit a sub-cap ship.

So I would like to modify my earlier statement and now say that it seems all Dreads need to be rebalanced, not just the Moros receiving a nerf, yet maintain that this will undoubtedly happen as part of the ship balancing effort. It's still not a serious issue compared to other things that are really broken, however, and is certainly not worth wasting the precious few moments of CCP Dev attention by moaning about it compared to other more serious issues that do deserve noise.
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#253 - 2013-01-29 16:19:32 UTC
^ I'm confused...

You say that with the given sig radius and the speed, neither ship will be hit by a dread but then you go on to say that there is over a 70% chance to hit both...

Any pilot dumb to sit at optimal of a dread and not even bother to fit a prop mod, deserves to die so i don't see how you conclude that this warrants a nerf to all dreads?

Seriously this is non issue.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Zara Nomis
Doomheim
#254 - 2013-01-29 16:24:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Zara Nomis
let me help you with that
Meytal wrote:
If we assume that both ships are moving at their stated max velocity fully transversal to the dreads, neither ship has a prayer of hit htting an unmodified Guardian, but both will probably get an unmodified Bhaal in a few shots:

Moros: 79.71% chance to hit a Bhaal at 23.27 km
Rev: 73.3% chance to hit a Bhaal at 25.64 km

so neither will hit a guard moving at max transversal
both will hit a bhaal moving at max transversal

neither will hit guard
both will hit bhaal

guard
bhaal

need moar bite sized chunks?
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#255 - 2013-01-29 16:37:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Ah okay i misread, no need to be a prick Blink Still, it doesn't prove anything as you would have a prop mod on and you wouldn't/shouldn't be sat at optimal.

Post the results for a Bhaal orbiting at 10km with an AB running.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Meytal
Doomheim
#256 - 2013-01-29 18:04:05 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Ah okay i misread, no need to be a prick Blink Still, it doesn't prove anything as you would have a prop mod on and you wouldn't/shouldn't be sat at optimal.

Post the results for a Bhaal orbiting at 10km with an AB running.

With how many paints and webs, and at what skills for everyone involved? You can adjust the situation until the end of time, but I picked some reference point as an example so that we all could get a nice pretty visual of what is going on, besides just talking about abstract numbers. I think/hope the illustration helps with that. Maybe I should have added a max-skilled BS for comparison against the same two targets, but there is the calculator itself for further reader experimentation.