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Technological advancement.

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Author
Saul Elsyn
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#21 - 2013-01-28 03:09:55 UTC
CCP Eterne wrote:
Even the projectile weapons in New Eden are highly advanced. The principles behind them are simplistic, but the weapons themselves are not. They're probably not as "advanced" as hybrids, but they're still pretty advanced.

I'd actually probably declare missiles to be the most advanced weapon system, because there's a missile which deals ONLY kinetic damage. How does that even work?


Easy, no warhead but a lug of iron. It's a kinetic kill vehicle... burns out it's motor and just hits the target at ridiculously high velocities. Now the EMP missiles, those are complex XD
Rogue Lawyer
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2013-01-28 04:00:54 UTC
Streya Jormagdnir wrote:
Eija-Riitta Veitonen wrote:




In my opinion, the damage type specifications in EVE universe are most likely based on the damage effects, not the way it is caused.



I was looking at it the other way, but I suppose that makes a lot more sense. EVE has a lot of different ways of killing each other. HE-AP rounds, plasma-ladened warheads, antimatter charges...it's all pretty good stuff. I just wish they'd let use use space-mines in nullsec. Twisted


Can't think of a worse way than plasma, primordial plasma for instance is the hottest thing known to man, 4 trillion degrees. It is probably what Blasters fire.
Noboru Tahvo Toivonen
Achura-Waschi Exchange
Monyusaiya Industry Trade Group
#23 - 2013-01-28 08:59:37 UTC
I had assumed kinetic missiles were graviton implosion warheads due to their space bending impact effect. Direct kinetic damage through shear-stress caused by several overlapping and unstable gravitational effects for a brief period of time. It fits in with Caldari focus on gravity based energy production and a chronicle that mentions 'implosion grenades' (the one where three capsuleers board a derelict luxury yacht full of defunct True Slaves).

CCP Eterne
C C P
C C P Alliance
#24 - 2013-01-28 10:57:57 UTC
The problem with them being simple kill vehicles is that there's a visible explosion when they hit. The graviton implosion is a more likely explanation for what kinetic missiles are, actually.

EVE Online/DUST 514 Community Representative ※ EVE Illuminati ※ Fiction Adept

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Eija-Riitta Veitonen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#25 - 2013-01-28 14:45:02 UTC
CCP Eterne wrote:
The problem with them being simple kill vehicles is that there's a visible explosion when they hit. The graviton implosion is a more likely explanation for what kinetic missiles are, actually.

Psst. There's a visible "explosion-like" dust when the AP round hits something. It's actually the debris created at the point of impact, and not the explosion fragments. Also graviton implosion effects actually look more like reverse explosion effects, same shockwaves, dislodging of internal components and cracks/shears due to stress. I'd still stick to KKVs :)
Sairi Katelin
State War Academy
Caldari State
#26 - 2013-01-28 15:29:28 UTC
Eija-Riitta Veitonen wrote:
Explosive damage are most likely based on pressure shockwaves generated by an explosion (with or without shrapnels) that can result in shattering, deformation of and/or spalling on armor surfaces and must be analogous to the HE (high-explosive) weapons of real-life, such as gun/tank/artillery shells, bombs, grenades and many more.

Explosive damage weapons seem more analogous to shaped charge effects, especially in the way that explosive is the weak point of armor. In those, the charge uses a shaped explosion to dig into the armor, then digs in and explodes again to try to tear the armor plating apart. It's a common and staged sequence that is used specifically to try to destroy armor plating, but I can imagine that it would be counter-productive to do against some sort of repelling energy field. Lo and behold, explosives are the kryptonite of armor and laughable against shields.
Eija-Riitta Veitonen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#27 - 2013-01-28 18:09:16 UTC
Sairi Katelin wrote:
Eija-Riitta Veitonen wrote:
Explosive damage are most likely based on pressure shockwaves generated by an explosion (with or without shrapnels) that can result in shattering, deformation of and/or spalling on armor surfaces and must be analogous to the HE (high-explosive) weapons of real-life, such as gun/tank/artillery shells, bombs, grenades and many more.

Explosive damage weapons seem more analogous to shaped charge effects, especially in the way that explosive is the weak point of armor. In those, the charge uses a shaped explosion to dig into the armor, then digs in and explodes again to try to tear the armor plating apart. It's a common and staged sequence that is used specifically to try to destroy armor plating, but I can imagine that it would be counter-productive to do against some sort of repelling energy field. Lo and behold, explosives are the kryptonite of armor and laughable against shields.

Shaped charge ammo (aka HEATs) are a subset of HE, there are lots of various types and flavours but they all are united by the use of some explosive force, be it an omnidirectional, multidirectional or unidirectional. And shields are bane of all of them, because the further the shockwave is from the hard surface, the lesser the extent of the damage would be.
Saul Elsyn
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#28 - 2013-01-28 19:49:16 UTC
Eija-Riitta Veitonen wrote:
CCP Eterne wrote:
The problem with them being simple kill vehicles is that there's a visible explosion when they hit. The graviton implosion is a more likely explanation for what kinetic missiles are, actually.

Psst. There's a visible "explosion-like" dust when the AP round hits something. It's actually the debris created at the point of impact, and not the explosion fragments. Also graviton implosion effects actually look more like reverse explosion effects, same shockwaves, dislodging of internal components and cracks/shears due to stress. I'd still stick to KKVs :)

In retrospect, the problem with them being simple KKVs would be the explosion radius and velocity mechanics of the missiles. Maybe it's a warhead made of thousands of little bits of iron with a tiny 'Bursting' charge to throw the warhead's thousands of tiny KKV impactors.
Eija-Riitta Veitonen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#29 - 2013-01-28 21:40:28 UTC
Saul Elsyn wrote:
Eija-Riitta Veitonen wrote:
CCP Eterne wrote:
The problem with them being simple kill vehicles is that there's a visible explosion when they hit. The graviton implosion is a more likely explanation for what kinetic missiles are, actually.

Psst. There's a visible "explosion-like" dust when the AP round hits something. It's actually the debris created at the point of impact, and not the explosion fragments. Also graviton implosion effects actually look more like reverse explosion effects, same shockwaves, dislodging of internal components and cracks/shears due to stress. I'd still stick to KKVs :)

In retrospect, the problem with them being simple KKVs would be the explosion radius and velocity mechanics of the missiles. Maybe it's a warhead made of thousands of little bits of iron with a tiny 'Bursting' charge to throw the warhead's thousands of tiny KKV impactors.

Well, i think we have already reached the conclusion that there are multiple ways to ahieve "purely kinetic" damage from a missile and there can still be ways to achieve this that are yet unknown to us.
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#30 - 2013-01-29 09:19:55 UTC
Streya Jormagdnir wrote:
I was looking at it the other way, but I suppose that makes a lot more sense. EVE has a lot of different ways of killing each other. HE-AP rounds, plasma-ladened warheads, antimatter charges...it's all pretty good stuff. I just wish they'd let use use space-mines in nullsec.


True, and if real-life physics were used then then using nuclear rounds would create a blast that hits everything within several kilometers, and antimatter rounds would be a great way to remove pesky planets from your flight path.

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0

Kel hound
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2013-01-29 11:48:14 UTC
CCP Eterne wrote:
The problem with them being simple kill vehicles is that there's a visible explosion when they hit. The graviton implosion is a more likely explanation for what kinetic missiles are, actually.



Rick Robinson's First Law of Space Combat states that "An object impacting at 3 km/sec delivers kinetic energy equal to its mass in TNT.

Last time I checked most missiles already have speeds of around 3000m/s and then varying flight times. In essence kinetic missiles already are kill vehicles. In my opinion a more plausible explanation for the visible explosion is simply debris from the scourge missile as it breaks apart from the impact on the shields/armour.

Incipiently this is why its bullshit that missile boats cannot participate in orbital bombardments. They shouldn't even need special ammo, all the missile needs to do is fall on its target and boom, op success.
Noboru Tahvo Toivonen
Achura-Waschi Exchange
Monyusaiya Industry Trade Group
#32 - 2013-01-29 14:13:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Noboru Tahvo Toivonen
The problem with a pure KKV is it is incredibly dependent on the conditions of impact such as relative velocity between KKV and target. Against large, stationary targets a KKV is likely one of the most effective weapons there is, though large stationary targets are usually more easily damaged by sustained turret fire (higher applied dps in the case of 'impact' oriented weapons such as rails and projectiles, with the exception of HAM and Torpedos).

I am still convinced that the most reliable way to apply direct kinetic energy to a target, outside of having a ridiculously high comparative speed (such as that afforded by railguns and, I assume, projectile weaponry) is to generate some form of gravitational effect that causes shear stress. Explosion radius/velocity would dictate the 'period of exposure' required for maximum effect, with smaller, faster ships being able to evade the effect before it reaches optimal status just as they do with other 'implied AOE' weapons (plasma warheads etc).

It is possible that a KKV could operate like modern anti-aircraft shaped-charge weaponry, in that it flies relatively close, then angles to spray a burst of armour piercing munitions into the target. This is definitely a way of approaching the KKV while reasoning that the variable speed of target is much less of a factor over direct, whole body collision, as you could argue the shaped charge accelerates the 'shot' to extremely high speeds that guarantee some uniformity of effect over speed bands (below/over exp velocity).

TBH there is no reason that this isn't the case, precision missiles could use some incredibly advanced AI algorithms to direct a KKV 'shot' style missile, while a Fury uses an over charged graviton reactor to cause a local shearing effect that amounts to much more damage, but a more easily escaped AOE. Application is the muse of the engineer, and there's no reason why the bands of missile (Light/Heavy/dumb/guided) wouldn't have varying warhead technology.

If you're too fast for my grav implosion to grab a chunk of hull for a duration long enough to pulp it, maybe a directed, guided blast of high-velocity KK munitions will do the trick? The primary difference being that the KK 'shot' would have no explosive component, instead seeking to pierce the super structure and bounce around (oh god, multi-meter slivers of hardened alloy bouncing in my crew decks!), instead of tearing it apart from the inside as with explosive weaponry.
LOL56
STK Scientific
The Initiative.
#33 - 2013-01-31 22:52:42 UTC
Let me just settle this once and for all

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Item_Database:Ammunition_&_Charges:Missiles:Rockets:Standard_Rockets

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Rift_Citadel_Torpedo

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Rajas_Citadel_Cruise_Missile

The rest of you have the EXP, THRM and EM missiles spot on, and your kind of right on kinetic missiles, sub capitals one are 'percing' and capital ones have graviton pulse generators as payloads.
Lukas Flamesword
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#34 - 2013-02-01 06:32:25 UTC
Saul Elsyn wrote:
CCP Eterne wrote:
Even the projectile weapons in New Eden are highly advanced. The principles behind them are simplistic, but the weapons themselves are not. They're probably not as "advanced" as hybrids, but they're still pretty advanced.

I'd actually probably declare missiles to be the most advanced weapon system, because there's a missile which deals ONLY kinetic damage. How does that even work?


Easy, no warhead but a lug of iron. It's a kinetic kill vehicle... burns out it's motor and just hits the target at ridiculously high velocities. Now the EMP missiles, those are complex XD


actually not. because nukes makes an EMP blast. so EM missiles are just nukes that detonates beside a ship. damaging the shield more than it would if it exploded like they normally do (Thermal missiles are nukes. i heard that somewhere)
Wu Jiaqiu
#35 - 2013-02-02 03:17:01 UTC
CCP Eterne wrote:
Even the projectile weapons in New Eden are highly advanced. The principles behind them are simplistic, but the weapons themselves are not. They're probably not as "advanced" as hybrids, but they're still pretty advanced.

I'd actually probably declare missiles to be the most advanced weapon system, because there's a missile which deals ONLY kinetic damage. How does that even work?


I'm sure theres heat-seeking and guided ammo. An x-ray scope. A heated drill cycling at a billion RPM at the tip of the bullets to help penetrate. All this standard stuff in EVEs time. AND a cup holder next to the stock.
Eija-Riitta Veitonen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#36 - 2013-02-02 04:39:22 UTC
Lukas Flamesword wrote:
Saul Elsyn wrote:
CCP Eterne wrote:
Even the projectile weapons in New Eden are highly advanced. The principles behind them are simplistic, but the weapons themselves are not. They're probably not as "advanced" as hybrids, but they're still pretty advanced.

I'd actually probably declare missiles to be the most advanced weapon system, because there's a missile which deals ONLY kinetic damage. How does that even work?


Easy, no warhead but a lug of iron. It's a kinetic kill vehicle... burns out it's motor and just hits the target at ridiculously high velocities. Now the EMP missiles, those are complex XD


actually not. because nukes makes an EMP blast. so EM missiles are just nukes that detonates beside a ship. damaging the shield more than it would if it exploded like they normally do (Thermal missiles are nukes. i heard that somewhere)

I'm pretty sure EM missiles involve antimatter, either for direct use or to feed the EMP generator. And plasma fusion bombs do provide more heat than fission nukes.
Rachel Silverside
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#37 - 2013-02-05 07:23:49 UTC
CCP Eterne wrote:
Even the projectile weapons in New Eden are highly advanced. The principles behind them are simplistic, but the weapons themselves are not. They're probably not as "advanced" as hybrids, but they're still pretty advanced.

I'd actually probably declare missiles to be the most advanced weapon system, because there's a missile which deals ONLY kinetic damage. How does that even work?


Hypervelocity impacts have the same effect as an explosion. It's got to do with physics and maths— and thus it's annoying to figure out— but anything moving over 3km/s will generate a fireball when it impacts a surface.

As an aside (and because I have nothing better to do) here is a link to a website that can help you figure out the effects of an impact on water of differing depths and on soil of differing compositions. It's really only useful for working out the effects of an orbital bombardment* but it's very interesting to learn what a one ton iridium sphere can do to a city when it hits at 30km's. It should be easy enough to use but if you need any help just ask.

*However it would really only be useful for kinetic weapons and lasers due to how they transfer energy. If you're dealing with missiles then you'll have to use a nuke effect calculator.

Eija-Riitta Veitonen wrote:
Lukas Flamesword wrote:
Saul Elsyn wrote:
CCP Eterne wrote:
Even the projectile weapons in New Eden are highly advanced. The principles behind them are simplistic, but the weapons themselves are not. They're probably not as "advanced" as hybrids, but they're still pretty advanced.

I'd actually probably declare missiles to be the most advanced weapon system, because there's a missile which deals ONLY kinetic damage. How does that even work?


Easy, no warhead but a lug of iron. It's a kinetic kill vehicle... burns out it's motor and just hits the target at ridiculously high velocities. Now the EMP missiles, those are complex XD


actually not. because nukes makes an EMP blast. so EM missiles are just nukes that detonates beside a ship. damaging the shield more than it would if it exploded like they normally do (Thermal missiles are nukes. i heard that somewhere)

I'm pretty sure EM missiles involve antimatter, either for direct use or to feed the EMP generator. And plasma fusion bombs do provide more heat than fission nukes.

While you can't really get an EMP in space due to the lack of an atmosphere** you can use X-rays and Microwaves in order to get a similar effect. From what i understand it has to do with generating a difference in charge within or between conductive surfaces. I may be recalling it incorrectly, but this difference in charge causes a current to flow and fries any electronic device that it flows through provided that the device is insufficiently hardened.

**EMP generation is weird but a small amount of atmosphere is necessary.
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