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ETA on Missile Changes Part 2

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Sinigr Shadowsong
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2013-01-29 08:21:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Sinigr Shadowsong
Naomi Anthar wrote:

3. I shouldn't even comment on that. You really think reducing tracking speed does nothing to gunboats ?

I know I will regreat it, but let me teach you a lesson about turret damage in Eve.
ChanceToHit = 0.5 ^ ((((Transversal speed/(Range to target * Turret Tracking))*(Turret Signature Resolution / Target Signature Radius))^2) + ((max(0, Range To Target - Turret Optimal Range))/Turret Falloff)^2)
When target's transversal is zero (exactly as in my example above) your tracking speed is irrelevant. Being it 0.0001 or 0.5 tracking won't affect results at all.

Caitlyn Tufy wrote:

A question, though - since we're discussing it in this thread, are there any plans to do anything with Defenders? :)
/ducks the incoming tomato


I think that is the best way to deal with defenders atm is just delete them alltogether and refund skillpoins.
Naomi Anthar
#42 - 2013-01-29 08:24:20 UTC
Sinigr Shadowsong wrote:
Naomi Anthar wrote:

3. I shouldn't even comment on that. You really think reducing tracking speed does nothing to gunboats ?

I know I will regreat it, but let me teach you a lesson about turret damage in Eve.
ChanceToHit = 0.5 ^ ((((Transversal speed/(Range to target * Turret Tracking))*(Turret Signature Resolution / Target Signature Radius))^2) + ((max(0, Range To Target - Turret Optimal Range))/Turret Falloff)^2)
When target's transversal is zero (exactly as in my example above) your tracking speed is irrelevant. Being it 0.0001 or 0.5 tracking won't affect results at all.

Caitlyn Tufy wrote:

A question, though - since we're discussing it in this thread, are there any plans to do anything with Defenders? :)
/ducks the incoming tomato


I think that is the best way to deal with defenders atm is just delete them alltogether and refund skillpoins.

Sure you gonna regret that. Now ... so you make assumptions that every ship flies toward with "aproach" ? I guess you do, that's what you do in pvp yourself. Obviously :).
Sinigr Shadowsong
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#43 - 2013-01-29 08:26:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Sinigr Shadowsong
Naomi Anthar wrote:

Sure you gonna regret that. Now ... so you make assumptions that every ship flies toward with "aproach" ? I guess you do, that's what you do in pvp yourself. Obviously :).

Have you read my first example before making comments?
If some oblivious frigate pilot is just approaching to you your tracking doesn't matter. Your mission's explosion velocity does. That's actually pretty common situation in PvP, a lot of new players make such mistakes. Another example of zero transversal velocity is chasing a target that tries to get away from your warp disruption range.
Btw you made assumption about every ship, not me, I was only talking about some frigs. You probably don't PvP at all or afraid of showing your KB hiding behind alt.
Naomi Anthar
#44 - 2013-01-29 08:40:08 UTC
Sinigr Shadowsong wrote:
Naomi Anthar wrote:

Sure you gonna regret that. Now ... so you make assumptions that every ship flies toward with "aproach" ? I guess you do, that's what you do in pvp yourself. Obviously :).

Have you read my first example before making comments?
If some oblivious frigate pilot is just approaching to you your tracking doesn't matter. Your mission's explosion velocity does.

And what if you won't be Tracking disrupted ? What if you now can also benefit from enchancers and computers? Too many look at this as straight nerf? It's nerf but also buff in many situations. Such modules can improve explosion velocity numbers etc. And to your so called example... what is the point ? To once again try show me how reducing tracking speed does not affect gunboat ? It does , it will affect missile boat too.
And if i'm so wrong... If i'm so "mad". Then maybe tell me why CCP also see this as necessary change.

Trust me they know game mechanics better than your or me or anyone on this forum . So stop explaining me (whatever it was it failed as blant example of frigate with 0 transversal is lol and proves nothing) those mechanics. Why you can't wait for numbers and what will be exactly affected ? You and many people here are making big assumptions now, based on ... nothing. We got no data. We only know it will be affected. Why you try to prove me and CCP wrong about this change ? You gotta trust on this one, devs know what they are doing this time.

It's really annoying to hear that it's ok that ECM along with damps can work vs everything and TD's cannot work vs anything (logis/missile/droneboats). Too many here think only about personal gains and not much about balance overral .IF You care about game and longevity, then you should approve this change as good move to balance power between weapon systems and between EWARs.
Sinigr Shadowsong
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2013-01-29 08:53:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Sinigr Shadowsong
Naomi Anthar wrote:

It's really annoying to hear that it's ok that ECM along with damps can work vs everything and TD's cannot work vs anything (logis/missile/droneboats). Too many here think only about personal gains and not much about balance overral .IF You care about game and longevity, then you should approve this change as good move to balance power between weapon systems and between EWARs.


I understand your position. Tracking disruptors not affecting missiles/drone boat may seam unfair, but it is balanced in other ways.
1. Amarr already have ships with bonuses to neutes which affect most ships. Therefore each faction have EWAR system that effective against everything.
2. Tracking disruptors are very effective on unbonused hulls. With a single Multispectral ECM or Sensor Damper you won't feel any difference. Single TD may decide winning or losing.

For overall balance perspective such buffs to TD should be offset by severly nerfing it effectiveness on unbonused ships.
Also why aren't you asking for Smartbombs reducing turret damage? They affect droneships and missile ships. Same with Defenders, which are joke in PvP but sometimes annoying when used by NPC.
Gypsio III
State War Academy
Caldari State
#46 - 2013-01-29 09:04:20 UTC
Naomi Anthar wrote:

It's really annoying to hear that it's ok that ECM along with damps can work vs everything and TD's cannot work vs anything (logis/missile/droneboats). Too many here think only about personal gains and not much about balance overral


Such as you, for example? We'd end up with TDs on everything. This is good for neither diversity nor balance. There has to be a separate module.
Naomi Anthar
#47 - 2013-01-29 09:12:16 UTC
Sinigr Shadowsong wrote:
Naomi Anthar wrote:

It's really annoying to hear that it's ok that ECM along with damps can work vs everything and TD's cannot work vs anything (logis/missile/droneboats). Too many here think only about personal gains and not much about balance overral .IF You care about game and longevity, then you should approve this change as good move to balance power between weapon systems and between EWARs.


I understand your position. Tracking disruptors not affecting missiles/drone boat may seam unfair, but it is balanced in other ways.
1. Amarr already have ships with bonuses to neutes which affect most ships.
2. Tracking disruptors are very effective on unbonused hulls. With a single Multispectral ECM or Sensor Damper you won't feel any difference. Single TD may decide winning or losing.

For overall balance perspective such buffs to TD should be offset by severly nerfing it effectiveness on unbonused ships.
Also why aren't you asking for Smartbombs reducing turret damage? They affect droneships and missile ships. Same with Defenders, which are joke in PvP but sometimes annoying when used by NPC.


Now you start to make sence. If TD's gonna be too powerful , nerf them by all means i agree. But THEY MUST AFFECT ALL WEAPON SYSTEMS BY ALL MEANS.

If it will be too powerful on unbonused hull then cut it. Now we are talking . Sorry for previous posts, but i'm tired of ignorance.

Another thing is also pve. I see no reason why tengus and other missile boats are completly unaffected by Sansha TD's. But when dunno ... Loki wants to mess with Guristas they ECM him and any other ship aswell.

There is just plain and simple too many reasons for TDs to start working vs missiles. If they become too strong, then reduce effectivness, deal with numbers not with module. Don't make it too situational as it works now.

"I understand your position. Tracking disruptors not affecting missiles/drone boat may seam unfair, but it is balanced in other ways. " No it's not . For me it's simple I push big button on tracking disruptor while i got missile boat locked. Module cycles. It does anything ? No . It's called lack of balance in my book.
And sorry my dear friend we are not talking about neuting. I could bring bonuses to webs / scrams on Min/Gallente ships but that's not point of this discusion.

I will make harsh statement - having equipped td vs missile boats is like having one or more (if you got more TD's) empty slots instead of modules. I don't see how anyone can justify that somehow.
Naomi Anthar
#48 - 2013-01-29 09:13:35 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Naomi Anthar wrote:

It's really annoying to hear that it's ok that ECM along with damps can work vs everything and TD's cannot work vs anything (logis/missile/droneboats). Too many here think only about personal gains and not much about balance overral


Such as you, for example? We'd end up with TDs on everything. This is good for neither diversity nor balance. There has to be a separate module.


Separate modules ? And we already ended up with ECM being good vs everything . People call for nerfs. We already have damps affectign everything.

As i said TD's will get too strong then reduce numbers. Numbers not valid targets.
Sinigr Shadowsong
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#49 - 2013-01-29 09:26:34 UTC
Naomi Anthar wrote:

I will make harsh statement - having equipped td vs missile boats is like having one or more (if you got more TD's) empty slots instead of modules. I don't see how anyone can justify that somehow.

It is called variety. Having a target painter against shield-tanked carrier will be just like having empty slot in most cases. Having a firewall against turret ships will not protect your fleet. Having an interdiction probe launcher is worse than empty high slot against a T3 with Interdiction Nullifier subsystem. Having a neuts against sniper fleet is a waste.
All of the above is very useful in other situations. Same with TD.
Naomi Anthar
#50 - 2013-01-29 09:36:38 UTC
Sinigr Shadowsong wrote:
Naomi Anthar wrote:

I will make harsh statement - having equipped td vs missile boats is like having one or more (if you got more TD's) empty slots instead of modules. I don't see how anyone can justify that somehow.

It is called variety. Having a target painter against shield-tanked carrier will be just like having empty slot in most cases. Having a firewall against turret ships will not protect your fleet. Having an interdiction probe launcher is worse than empty high slot against a T3 with Interdiction Nullifier subsystem. Having a neuts against sniper fleet is a waste.
All of the above is very useful in other situations. Same with TD.


VS carrier ... cmon man really ? T3 interdiction and interdictors ... ? Really ?

I will even use your own argument against you.
I won't comment on those trolling attempts only on neut. It's not that it doesn't work, if you can close the distance you can neut em - so reduced usefulnes but module still does it job - you are out of range but you could say same thing about short range guns? BUT TD WILL NOT WORK UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES VS MISSILE BOAT. Closing distance won't help , increasing distance wont help, nothing will - and that is problem.
Start talking with sence about real scenarios not target painting carrier , but td wont work either anyway ...
You just post to post, everything you say i'm afraid is either troll (painting carrier) or some randomly thrown words making sentence in order just to say something. You still bring no arguments. I don't see them.

What you call variety i call imbalance. I'm glad CCP sees things my way. And it's not like i came up with it. They decided this without asking me about it. CAN YOU BELIEVE? :D
Sinigr Shadowsong
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#51 - 2013-01-29 09:47:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Sinigr Shadowsong
CCP decided to go for more homogenization. Is it good or bad depends on tastes, obviously you like it but many players don't.
Dzajic
#52 - 2013-01-29 11:01:25 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
We're not changing the relationship between tracking modules and missiles in Retribution 1.1

That's all I can say for certain at this time.


Thank god. TDs and TEs are already too useful, making them affect missiles would make them godly and mandatory on all ships.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#53 - 2013-01-29 12:32:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Morrigan LeSante
Naomi Anthar wrote:
Another thing is also pve. I see no reason why tengus and other missile boats are completly unaffected by Sansha TD's.


Blasters are unaffected by damps (oops)
Projectiles are unaffected by neuts (ooops)


You sure have one hell of a bee in your bonnet there.

After the HML nerf went live, the entire missile system is almost an afterthought in the PvP ranks these days, making TD effect it would just finish it off.


And if you think it's "tengu online", I've a Machariel to sell you.....
Jaiimez Skor
The Infamous.
#54 - 2013-01-29 14:33:05 UTC
So wow, didn't expect the thread to get this much attention, I was honestly expecting it to die into the depths of the forum without really getting any attention, or a dev response, which I am very glad to have got Fozzie :)

I am reading all this and I can see arguments for everything, and see the pros and cons of each side. As far as the effectiveness of Tracking Disruptors on Unbonused hulls that is easily solved, they can easily nerf the effectiveness of tracking disruptors base stats and if neccessary buff the bonuses on the ships that are bonused.

And the more I read I am now starting to see good reasons to make a new module for them and not have 1 module affect both weapons, however also I do not see a problem with this, all Tracking Disruptor bonused boats have more than enough mid slots to fit 1 of each on them without causing them to become weak.

I have faith in CCP to find a careful balance between the 2, and if not I have faith in the player base to rage, shout and threadnaught until it gets fixed.
Gypsio III
State War Academy
Caldari State
#55 - 2013-01-29 16:33:10 UTC
Naomi Anthar wrote:

I will make harsh statement - having equipped td vs missile boats is like having one or more (if you got more TD's) empty slots instead of modules. I don't see how anyone can justify that somehow.


It's easy to justify. Not only is it fundamental to balance that a ship should not be good at too many things at the same time, but also it's important that failures of intelligence or target selection - bringing a turret TD instead of a missile TD - are punished appropriately.

Note that while ECM can be fit on any ship and works on any ship, it does so in a very unreliable fashion, such that fitting unbonused ECM is rare. Meanwhile, the bonused ECM ships are good at ECM and not much else. In neither case do the ships possess reliable all-target ewar and combat abilities - which is what an omni-TD would give.

It's only difficult to justify if you don't care about general balance and just want your ship to work in all situations. Straight
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#56 - 2013-01-29 16:58:48 UTC
Naomi Anthar wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
Naomi Anthar wrote:

It's really annoying to hear that it's ok that ECM along with damps can work vs everything and TD's cannot work vs anything (logis/missile/droneboats). Too many here think only about personal gains and not much about balance overral


Such as you, for example? We'd end up with TDs on everything. This is good for neither diversity nor balance. There has to be a separate module.


Separate modules ? And we already ended up with ECM being good vs everything . People call for nerfs. We already have damps affectign everything.

As i said TD's will get too strong then reduce numbers. Numbers not valid targets.

Yeah, and ECM is a ****** mechanic. I thought I heard talk a while back by devs about wanting to change it up. It's too chance based. Besides, at least you NEED to mount ECM to a dedicated boat with bonuses or else it's not even worth putting on your ship. Again, the issue with TD's is that A SINGLE TD is enough to completely screw over a ship, even an unbonused one. Now make it affect missiles. Now it's too strong.

And for damps: as I said earlier most larger ships will typically engage significantly under their locking range. They don't feel the pressure until you start putting on multiple damps. Keyword there being multiple. TD's only need one to remove a ships DPS from the fight either because of range or tracking.

And you think I'm fine with TD's are screwing over gunboats? **** NO, I'M NOT! They're too strong on unbonused platforms. I never said I'm against a module *like* TD's affecting missiles. Hell, if they wanted TD's to affect missiles, I'd ***** about it, but I would deal with it as long as they were smart enough to further nerf unbonused TD's before doing so. I don't want everybody and their mom throwing TD's on all their ships just because they have a slot. You don't see people doing that with damps or ECM. But it does happen already with TD's sometimes. It would be an absolute no-brainer if they hit missiles too.

I know how bullshit TD's are. I've ****** around with kiting TD Condors, armour TD scram range kiting Cormorants (when they had 4 mids), the DCU version of the previous, TD's on all the things... yeah. TD's are too strong on unbonused platforms.

They'd have to get a heavy nerf on unbonused platforms before I'd ever even consider agreeing that they could affect missiles too. But at that point I'd more than likely agree that it wouldn't be a terrible idea. They just need to fix the unbonused TDs first.
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