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Pay to win? Game Breaking?

Author
Corey Fumimasa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#141 - 2013-01-27 21:11:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Corey Fumimasa
Re pay to win: Eve could have instanced zones that you have to pay AUR to get into. Once inside local chat would be controlled by the AI, it would just type random insults and things and post a few portraits. Then you see a few ships come onto your grid, piloted by the offensive AI created players and you could freely blast them or whatever.
They could drop little coupons that say “You Win!” or “Great job!” Along with a pinball score board that kept dinging and going up.

As for the drone spy that would be cool, but only if it was balanced in some way. Perhaps the pilot who launches the spy drone gets a suspect flag to anyone who got scanned. That might be cool, you send the drone through and then 15 pirates come through with a kill right on you. It might actually give the cowardly bears a reason to learn about flags.

Seems like it could present some issues with coding to. Which would make the idea too much work.

*no custom paint jobs on the server or on my comp. You should be able to have your comp display anything you want to though. I vote for space galleons and flying insect ships and fast food looking ships for the Amarr. Giant bundles of french fries with lazer guns.
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#142 - 2013-01-27 21:36:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Tardbar
Ranger 1 wrote:
Quote:
As I have stated before players can only earn so much isk wealth with their time per week, which allows a player with real money wealth to always leverage an in game isk advantage.


Just pointing out one of the more obvious flaws in your argument.

Not everyone earns their ISK farming as many rats as they can in a day, or mining as much veld as they can take in per hour. In fact, none of the wealthier players in game do.

I think most of us that have been around for a while know the frequency where those who scam or infiltrate often earn 10's or even 100's of billions of ISK in a single day.
Or market traders/manipulators that can achieve similar results.
Or alliance leaders that over time dwarf the overall income of either one of the previous examples.

Your income in EvE is limited by how clever you are, and your personal skills, not hours per day or the number of skills you have accumulated over time.


As for the "winning" part of pay to win, how exactly do you pay to WIN in EvE?

Lets say you are a wealthy and somewhat unbalanced millionaire with nothing better to spend your money on than a video game. Big smileBig smileBig smile

Do you win by throwing money at large numbers of accounts and the hardware to run them simultaneously? If so then how do you win even then?

Do you form your own mining fleets to accumulate more wealth to win that way? No, your average botter that only paid for his first account with money will outstrip you in income easily AND know how to avoid getting caught.

Do you form a fleet of Titans and go take power by force? No, you'll lock horns with a player that runs a powerful alliance according to his whims (and who is likely not spending a dime of his own money on his accounts) who will crush you because he is a superior player (with superior personal skills) that enable him to direct other players to stomp you. He is also likely able to fund as many in game assets as you are, even with your throwing huge amounts of cash at the game. The end result is you simply feed him your money in losses/loot.

Perhaps you seek to control the market or related payouts like FW payouts, to the extent where you WIN at EvE. Except you'll always find someone better at it than you and he'll simply take your money without even tipping his hat... or has been shown you'll get so carried away that it comes to CCP's notice and they'll pull the plug on your operation.

You see, there isn't a thing you can purchase in game with money that I can't buy with ISK. To be perfectly honest, there isn't a thing you can buy in this game with money that I can't take away from you without spending a dime.

If you find you need to throw tons of cash at EvE to succeed it is only because you already lack the personal skills necessary to do so... and that won't change no matter how much money you invest... because there are plenty of people out there that can succeed better than you without needing to blow the cash.

The simple truth is, when you get good enough at EvE to make a "reasonably" sincere claim as to having "won" EvE Big smile, you are a good enough player to not NEED to spend real cash to do so. Blink



My argument implied that a player is playing by themselves doing normal activities such as mining, FW, and missioning and can only earn so much isk in a given period of time.

If a player leverages other players to earn isk such as corporate taxes, scamming, or just getting players to donate massive amounts of isk. Yes they can earn more isk than a single player playing by themselves, but I guess my argument was that a player can simply use their real world wealth to create items that are valable to other players.

The plex is created through other player's real world wealth. That item has value and therefore gives them an advantage over other players who don't have that item which is why people pay large sums of isk for it.

Whether or not that player can leverage that advantage is up to them and is not always a sure thing which is why its not really a big deal as millionaires don't seem to play EvE (well if they do they don't seem to come out on the forums claiming they purchased $100,000 worth of plex).

I'm not arguing that they should do away with plex. I just want people to acknowledge that it does give some advantage.

It is as you say a short cut to scamming or getting other players to randomly donante you money.

In effect you are paying CCP to create high value items out of thin air to give you a slight advantage in playing the game.

Its not really a big deal and is better than the alternative of RMT.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server

Garreth Vlox
Ascendance
Goonswarm Federation
#143 - 2013-01-27 22:04:42 UTC
Stegas Tyrano wrote:
Montevius Williams wrote:
Stegas Tyrano wrote:
So spending RL money or Plex for a second account isn't? Everyone who replied is a noob.


Do you have a better way to curb Gold or isk farming? Plex is fine. What's next? Spending Aurum for T3 Weapons...We've been down this path before. They damn near burned Jita to the ground.

No Aurum for any type of strategic advantage.

Aurum is fine for cosmetic. I'd love to see Aurum to have custom paint jobs or Corp Logos or Pirate eye patches.


Using AUR as I proposed would make life alot easier for everyone using trial accounts as scouts.

Also rejecting Aur and accepting PLEX is pure hypocrisy.



Since when can you log in a trial on the same PC as a paid account at the same time? That used to generate a nice big message that said pay for both or GTFO.

The LULZ Boat.

Celly Smunt
Hero Kings
#144 - 2013-01-28 01:56:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Celly S
Garreth Vlox wrote:
Since when can you log in a trial on the same PC as a paid account at the same time? That used to generate a nice big message that said pay for both or GTFO.



As far as I know, you can't

Well I guess if you're running VM (Virtual machine for those who might not know) or something, but aside from that, not that I know of.

o/
Celly

Don't mistake fact for arrogance, supposition for fact, or disagreement for dismissal. Perception is unique in that it can be shared or singular. Run with the pack if you wish, but think for yourself. A sandwich can be a great motivator.

Ilhicamina
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#145 - 2013-01-28 04:38:07 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Stegas Tyrano wrote:
So spending RL money or Plex for a second account isn't? Everyone who replied is a noob.

Paying money for a second account is functionally no different than having another player so far as the game is concerned. That being the case is cooperating cheating?


No, but one person dualboxing that way is not functionally or ethically different than pay to win in any way.
Surfin's PlunderBunny
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#146 - 2013-01-28 04:41:57 UTC
Ilhicamina wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Stegas Tyrano wrote:
So spending RL money or Plex for a second account isn't? Everyone who replied is a noob.

Paying money for a second account is functionally no different than having another player so far as the game is concerned. That being the case is cooperating cheating?


No, but one person dualboxing that way is not functionally or ethically different than pay to win in any way.


Oh look, Red Federation bitching... Straight

"Little ginger moron" ~David Hasselhoff 

Want to see what Surf is training or how little isk Surf has?  http://eveboard.com/pilot/Surfin%27s_PlunderBunny

RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#147 - 2013-01-28 05:31:39 UTC
Ilhicamina wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Stegas Tyrano wrote:
So spending RL money or Plex for a second account isn't? Everyone who replied is a noob.

Paying money for a second account is functionally no different than having another player so far as the game is concerned. That being the case is cooperating cheating?


No, but one person dualboxing that way is not functionally or ethically different than pay to win in any way.


Sure it is.

Pay To Win is paying Real Money for an In game advantage unobtainable through normal game mechanics.

Dualboxing is paying Real Money for an in game advantage that is otherwise obtainable through normal game mechanics (the mechanic: bring a friend).

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

ILikeMarkets
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#148 - 2013-01-28 06:06:08 UTC
Stegas Tyrano wrote:
Would it be pay to win if, CCP sold drones for AUR that lets you look through gates and see what's on the other side? Doing this exists in the form of paying RL currency for a second account, why not scale price/functionality down and give us these camera spy drones thingies that look like this.


I already pay for this by having 2 accounts, so I wouldn't mind seeing the price reduced a little...

Proof that capital ships are rare in EVE: http://imgur.com/gallery/jJJE1

Surfin's PlunderBunny
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#149 - 2013-01-28 06:08:05 UTC
ILikeMarkets wrote:
Stegas Tyrano wrote:
Would it be pay to win if, CCP sold drones for AUR that lets you look through gates and see what's on the other side? Doing this exists in the form of paying RL currency for a second account, why not scale price/functionality down and give us these camera spy drones thingies that look like this.


I already pay for this by having 2 accounts, so I wouldn't mind seeing the price reduced a little...


We can have the droids bore into an enemy ship and remove the pod so we can have our way with anyone in it Pirate

"Little ginger moron" ~David Hasselhoff 

Want to see what Surf is training or how little isk Surf has?  http://eveboard.com/pilot/Surfin%27s_PlunderBunny

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#150 - 2013-01-28 06:11:18 UTC
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Quote:
As I have stated before players can only earn so much isk wealth with their time per week, which allows a player with real money wealth to always leverage an in game isk advantage.


Just pointing out one of the more obvious flaws in your argument.

Not everyone earns their ISK farming as many rats as they can in a day, or mining as much veld as they can take in per hour. In fact, none of the wealthier players in game do.

I think most of us that have been around for a while know the frequency where those who scam or infiltrate often earn 10's or even 100's of billions of ISK in a single day.
Or market traders/manipulators that can achieve similar results.
Or alliance leaders that over time dwarf the overall income of either one of the previous examples.

Your income in EvE is limited by how clever you are, and your personal skills, not hours per day or the number of skills you have accumulated over time.


As for the "winning" part of pay to win, how exactly do you pay to WIN in EvE?

Lets say you are a wealthy and somewhat unbalanced millionaire with nothing better to spend your money on than a video game. Big smileBig smileBig smile

Do you win by throwing money at large numbers of accounts and the hardware to run them simultaneously? If so then how do you win even then?

Do you form your own mining fleets to accumulate more wealth to win that way? No, your average botter that only paid for his first account with money will outstrip you in income easily AND know how to avoid getting caught.

Do you form a fleet of Titans and go take power by force? No, you'll lock horns with a player that runs a powerful alliance according to his whims (and who is likely not spending a dime of his own money on his accounts) who will crush you because he is a superior player (with superior personal skills) that enable him to direct other players to stomp you. He is also likely able to fund as many in game assets as you are, even with your throwing huge amounts of cash at the game. The end result is you simply feed him your money in losses/loot.

Perhaps you seek to control the market or related payouts like FW payouts, to the extent where you WIN at EvE. Except you'll always find someone better at it than you and he'll simply take your money without even tipping his hat... or has been shown you'll get so carried away that it comes to CCP's notice and they'll pull the plug on your operation.

You see, there isn't a thing you can purchase in game with money that I can't buy with ISK. To be perfectly honest, there isn't a thing you can buy in this game with money that I can't take away from you without spending a dime.

If you find you need to throw tons of cash at EvE to succeed it is only because you already lack the personal skills necessary to do so... and that won't change no matter how much money you invest... because there are plenty of people out there that can succeed better than you without needing to blow the cash.

The simple truth is, when you get good enough at EvE to make a "reasonably" sincere claim as to having "won" EvE Big smile, you are a good enough player to not NEED to spend real cash to do so. Blink



My argument implied that a player is playing by themselves doing normal activities such as mining, FW, and missioning and can only earn so much isk in a given period of time.

If a player leverages other players to earn isk such as corporate taxes, scamming, or just getting players to donate massive amounts of isk. Yes they can earn more isk than a single player playing by themselves, but I guess my argument was that a player can simply use their real world wealth to create items that are valable to other players.

The plex is created through other player's real world wealth. That item has value and therefore gives them an advantage over other players who don't have that item which is why people pay large sums of isk for it.

Whether or not that player can leverage that advantage is up to them and is not always a sure thing which is why its not really a big deal as millionaires don't seem to play EvE (well if they do they don't seem to come out on the forums claiming they purchased $100,000 worth of plex).

I'm not arguing that they should do away with plex. I just want people to acknowledge that it does give some advantage.

It is as you say a short cut to scamming or getting other players to randomly donante you money.

In effect you are paying CCP to create high value items out of thin air to give you a slight advantage in playing the game.

Its not really a big deal and is better than the alternative of RMT.

All of the activities I listed ARE normal activities in EvE... and the examples you gave still support the fact that a player that is really good at them doesn't need to spend real cash to succeed or "WIN" at them.

The people that throw large sums of money at the game are simply trying to compensate for their lack of time or skill and catch up... which (against a skilled player) they are unlikely to do, let alone out do them (IE win at EvE). If they had the personal skills necessary to become a superior player to begin with, they wouldn't need to throw cash at the game in the first place.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Mag's
Azn Empire
#151 - 2013-01-28 07:15:04 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Ilhicamina wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Stegas Tyrano wrote:
So spending RL money or Plex for a second account isn't? Everyone who replied is a noob.

Paying money for a second account is functionally no different than having another player so far as the game is concerned. That being the case is cooperating cheating?


No, but one person dualboxing that way is not functionally or ethically different than pay to win in any way.


Sure it is.

Pay To Win is paying Real Money for an In game advantage unobtainable through normal game mechanics.

Dualboxing is paying Real Money for an in game advantage that is otherwise obtainable through normal game mechanics (the mechanic: bring a friend).
Indeed.

Also dual boxing is not as efficient as running 1 account, due to split focus between the two. So it's more like Pay2NotBeQuiteAsGoodAsBringingAFriend

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Celly Smunt
Hero Kings
#152 - 2013-01-29 14:24:26 UTC
Ilhicamina wrote:
No, but one person dualboxing that way is not functionally or ethically different than pay to win in any way.



Actually, I beg to differ..
"dualboxing" requires the additional effort by the player in several ways. (attention, systems resources, time, ect ect)

"P2W" by it's very definition is "removing/reducing any/the requirement for effort", so i would have to say your statement is incorrect.

just a thought.
o/
Celly

Don't mistake fact for arrogance, supposition for fact, or disagreement for dismissal. Perception is unique in that it can be shared or singular. Run with the pack if you wish, but think for yourself. A sandwich can be a great motivator.

Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#153 - 2013-01-29 14:42:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Tardbar
Ranger 1 wrote:
All of the activities I listed ARE normal activities in EvE... and the examples you gave still support the fact that a player that is really good at them doesn't need to spend real cash to succeed or "WIN" at them.

The people that throw large sums of money at the game are simply trying to compensate for their lack of time or skill and catch up... which (against a skilled player) they are unlikely to do, let alone out do them (IE win at EvE). If they had the personal skills necessary to become a superior player to begin with, they wouldn't need to throw cash at the game in the first place.



Scamming and corp management takes somewhat skill, time, and effort to suceed at where creating plex just requires money.

That said, you are assuming that skilled players who once had time to learn the game now no longer have the real world time to keep up with the Jones so to say.

Imagine a college student who plays EvE 80 hours a week and is really good. Then he graduates, gets a job, starts a family, and he no longer has the time to play EvE, but he wants to keep PvPing a few hours on the weekend which of course results in ship losses.

Since he no longer has the time to mine or PvE he is purhasing Plex with the money he earns from his job. I've talked to plenty of people who do this.

He doesn't magically get less skilled because he plex's. There is no coerlation between Plex purchases and skill. None.

In that regard, what if an unemployed player who runs a major alliance (I'm not saying neck bears that run alliances are all unemployed basement dwellers but sometimes they can be) and has the world's highest KM ratio known to man because he plays 80 hours a week. What if he wins the lottery? He could use plex just as well as the employed person. Again, he is obviously a skilled player and even though he probaly has trillions of isk due to his alliance, he could still leverage plex if he wanted to. He might want to manipulate the market for example.

Simply saying people who buy plex are less skilled has no basis in reality. Of course they can be unskilled newbs, but there is nothing in the universe saying skilled players can't buy plex.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#154 - 2013-01-29 14:58:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
All of the activities I listed ARE normal activities in EvE... and the examples you gave still support the fact that a player that is really good at them doesn't need to spend real cash to succeed or "WIN" at them.

The people that throw large sums of money at the game are simply trying to compensate for their lack of time or skill and catch up... which (against a skilled player) they are unlikely to do, let alone out do them (IE win at EvE). If they had the personal skills necessary to become a superior player to begin with, they wouldn't need to throw cash at the game in the first place.



Scamming and corp management takes somewhat skill, time, and effort to suceed at where creating plex just requires money.

That said, you are assuming that skilled players who once had time to learn the game now no longer have the real world time to keep up with the Jones so to say.

Imagine a college student who plays EvE 80 hours a week and is really good. Then he graduates, gets a job, starts a family, and he no longer has the time to play EvE, but he wants to keep PvPing a few hours on the weekend which of course results in ship losses.

Since he no longer has the time to mine or PvE he is purhasing Plex with the money he earns from his job. I've talked to plenty of people who do this.

He doesn't magically get less skilled because he plex's. There is no coerlation between Plex purchases and skill. None.

In that regard, what if an unemployed player who runs a major alliance (I'm not saying neck bears that run alliances are all unemployed basement dwellers but sometimes they can be) and has the world's highest KM ratio known to man because he plays 80 hours a week. What if he wins the lottery? He could use plex just as well as the employed person. Again, he is obviously a skilled player and even though he probaly has trillions of isk due to his alliance, he could still leverage plex if he wanted to. He might want to manipulate the market for example.

Simply saying people who buy plex are less skilled has no basis in reality. Of course they can be unskilled newbs, but there is nothing in the universe saying skilled players can't buy plex.


The only assumptioins I see are yours, no offense intended.

You rather missed the point.

Even in the extremely unlikely example of someone who hit's the lottery, is highly skilled in EvE, has all day long to play and is stupid enough to throw large portions of his wealth at a video game.... it still doesn't gain him any advantage to do so.

If he has plenty of time, and especially if he is skilled, he doesn't NEED to throw his cash at the game to "WIN" (whatever you think that is in EvE) or gain an advantage. And even if he defies logic and does so anyway, he STILL isn't gaining any advantage that everyone else can't attain via in game means.

As always, the other naked truth is that you or I can take away everything he has thrown his cash at without spending a dime... and that scenario plays out literally hundreds of times a day in EvE. I probably still have the hate mails around to prove it. Smile

So about the best someone can hope for is to pay for ME to win.

Strangely I have no problem with that.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#155 - 2013-01-29 15:24:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Tardbar
Ranger 1 wrote:
So about the best someone can hope for is to pay for ME to win.


There were some unsubstantiated rumors that certain Russian alliances actually paid real money to other alliance FC's for them to FC their fleets because they needed the skill.

One could in theory use plex's to bribe other players if you were that rich.

Say 1 plex per every six months you follow my orders kind of deal.

I'm mean EvE isn't profuse with bribery (well I suppose there are mercs), but the potential is there for corruption.

I'd be willing to post whatever you want me to say in forums if you contract me a plex for example.

And you can't create plex in game no matter how many hour you play. You can purchase it with isk on the market, but its depedent on someone using real world money to create that plex. That is why real world wealth has a somewhat advantage over in game wealth.

Though no one has tried to bribe me yet, I'm sure people of high importance have taken plex under the table in negotations. Who wouldn't.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#156 - 2013-01-29 15:41:34 UTC
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
So about the best someone can hope for is to pay for ME to win.


There were some unsubstantiated rumors that certain Russian alliances actually paid real money to other alliance FC's for them to FC their fleets because they needed the skill.

One could in theory use plex's to bribe other players if you were that rich.

Say 1 plex per every six months you follow my orders kind of deal.

I'm mean EvE isn't profuse with bribery (well I suppose there are mercs), but the potential is there for corruption.

I'd be willing to post whatever you want me to say in forums if you contract me a plex for example.

And you can't create plex in game no matter how many hour you play. You can purchase it with isk on the market, but its depedent on someone using real world money to create that plex. That is why real world wealth has a somewhat advantage over in game wealth.

Though no one has tried to bribe me yet, I'm sure people of high importance have taken plex under the table in negotations. Who wouldn't.


You realize of course that you can insert ISK into each one of your examples and be equally true, not to mention that (as you so kindly pointed out) if I want to bribe someone with PLEX I don't need to spend a penny to do so. It doesn't matter if that PLEX was originally purchased and subsequently sold to me by a 15 year olds mother or a Russian RMT expert... I can obtain it by spending imaginary money and use it for whatever I wish (bribery or whatever) just as easily as the person who spends cash directly to obtain it. Why on earth would I spend my own cash to purchase a PLEX to bribe someone with when I can purchase that PLEX with my imaginary ISK instead?

Yes, bribery happens in EvE but it rarely involves real cash because it simply doesn't need to. On the occasions when real money does change hands it is usually done outside the game and STILL does not fall under the category of Pay to Win. If I'm stupid enough to pay you $20 to let me win at RISK, you can't (with a straight face) categorize RISK as a Pay to Win game. If your definition is that loose then literally every game ever made is Pay to Win. Smile

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#157 - 2013-01-29 16:04:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Tardbar
Ranger 1 wrote:
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
So about the best someone can hope for is to pay for ME to win.


There were some unsubstantiated rumors that certain Russian alliances actually paid real money to other alliance FC's for them to FC their fleets because they needed the skill.

One could in theory use plex's to bribe other players if you were that rich.

Say 1 plex per every six months you follow my orders kind of deal.

I'm mean EvE isn't profuse with bribery (well I suppose there are mercs), but the potential is there for corruption.

I'd be willing to post whatever you want me to say in forums if you contract me a plex for example.

And you can't create plex in game no matter how many hour you play. You can purchase it with isk on the market, but its depedent on someone using real world money to create that plex. That is why real world wealth has a somewhat advantage over in game wealth.

Though no one has tried to bribe me yet, I'm sure people of high importance have taken plex under the table in negotations. Who wouldn't.


You realize of course that you can insert ISK into each one of your examples and be equally true, not to mention that (as you so kindly pointed out) if I want to bribe someone with PLEX I don't need to spend a penny to do so. It doesn't matter if that PLEX was originally purchased and subsequently sold to me by a 15 year olds mother or a Russian RMT expert... I can obtain it by spending imaginary money and use it for whatever I wish (bribery or whatever) just as easily as the person who spends cash directly to obtain it. Why on earth would I spend my own cash to purchase a PLEX to bribe someone with when I can purchase that PLEX with my imaginary ISK instead?

Yes, bribery happens in EvE but it rarely involves real cash because it simply doesn't need to. On the occasions when real money does change hands it is usually done outside the game and STILL does not fall under the category of Pay to Win. If I'm stupid enough to pay you $20 to let me win at RISK, you can't (with a straight face) categorize RISK as a Pay to Win game. If your definition is that loose then literally every game ever made is Pay to Win. Smile


Well technically you just paid some one $20 to win at a game of risk. I'm pretty sure that is "Pay to Win".

People generally don't do that, but if you were Mr. Moneybelt you could.

I'm not arguing that EvE is actually pay to win absolutley. It's not really. It could be, but someone would need to go crazy with their lottery winnings and I can think of thousand things to do with millions of dollars before I would spend it on isk. I am just saying the potential is there.

Someone in theory could use money to gain advantage and that is pretty much pay to win somewhat. The might not technically have the highest KM ratio or even own a large player alliance, but someone could walk in and simply give themselves the advantage of 1 billion isk instantly where a normal player doing normal activiies would have to spend time at it.

Time is an advantage somewhat and if you don't have time to spare, leveraging plexes is a pretty good way to catch up.

Are plexes and absolute advantage? No they are not. There are many factors that give players advantages over each other and generating isk is one of them. Creating plexes to sell on the market is simply an advantage gained by using real world money.

Its like mining but istead of a mining ship you have your dollars and it creates plexes which you sell on the market just like ore.

The isk per hour of creating plexes is much greater than isk from mining. So in that respect plexes have a greater advantage isk wise than mining.

But like time, people do not have infinite money to spend so its not really a big deal that a player who uses plex's has an advantage. Someone who scams may get more isk per hour than both the average miner and plexer so in that instance the scammer has the advantage unless of course the plexer goes mad and buys $10,000 worth of plexes.

It is an advantage though.

That is what I am trying to convince people into seeing is that plexes favor thos with money in certain instances. Therfore is is midly pay to win and if was ever abused would result in a major game imbalance.

But truth be told, if a lotto winning player was smart, he'd just buy CCP instead of buying a million dollars worth of plexes and just dictate game policy that way.

Then you could say "He beat EvE".

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Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#158 - 2013-01-29 17:05:01 UTC
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
So about the best someone can hope for is to pay for ME to win.


There were some unsubstantiated rumors that certain Russian alliances actually paid real money to other alliance FC's for them to FC their fleets because they needed the skill.

One could in theory use plex's to bribe other players if you were that rich.

Say 1 plex per every six months you follow my orders kind of deal.

I'm mean EvE isn't profuse with bribery (well I suppose there are mercs), but the potential is there for corruption.

I'd be willing to post whatever you want me to say in forums if you contract me a plex for example.

And you can't create plex in game no matter how many hour you play. You can purchase it with isk on the market, but its depedent on someone using real world money to create that plex. That is why real world wealth has a somewhat advantage over in game wealth.

Though no one has tried to bribe me yet, I'm sure people of high importance have taken plex under the table in negotations. Who wouldn't.


You realize of course that you can insert ISK into each one of your examples and be equally true, not to mention that (as you so kindly pointed out) if I want to bribe someone with PLEX I don't need to spend a penny to do so. It doesn't matter if that PLEX was originally purchased and subsequently sold to me by a 15 year olds mother or a Russian RMT expert... I can obtain it by spending imaginary money and use it for whatever I wish (bribery or whatever) just as easily as the person who spends cash directly to obtain it. Why on earth would I spend my own cash to purchase a PLEX to bribe someone with when I can purchase that PLEX with my imaginary ISK instead?

Yes, bribery happens in EvE but it rarely involves real cash because it simply doesn't need to. On the occasions when real money does change hands it is usually done outside the game and STILL does not fall under the category of Pay to Win. If I'm stupid enough to pay you $20 to let me win at RISK, you can't (with a straight face) categorize RISK as a Pay to Win game. If your definition is that loose then literally every game ever made is Pay to Win. Smile


Well technically you just paid some one $20 to win at a game of risk. I'm pretty sure that is "Pay to Win".

People generally don't do that, but if you were Mr. Moneybelt you could.

I'm not arguing that EvE is actually pay to win absolutley. It's not really. It could be, but someone would need to go crazy with their lottery winnings and I can think of thousand things to do with millions of dollars before I would spend it on isk. I am just saying the potential is there.

Someone in theory could use money to gain advantage and that is pretty much pay to win somewhat. The might not technically have the highest KM ratio or even own a large player alliance, but someone could walk in and simply give themselves the advantage of 1 billion isk instantly where a normal player doing normal activiies would have to spend time at it.

Time is an advantage somewhat and if you don't have time to spare, leveraging plexes is a pretty good way to catch up.

Are plexes and absolute advantage? No they are not. There are many factors that give players advantages over each other and generating isk is one of them. Creating plexes to sell on the market is simply an advantage gained by using real world money.

Its like mining but istead of a mining ship you have your dollars and it creates plexes which you sell on the market just like ore.

The isk per hour of creating plexes is much greater than isk from mining. So in that respect plexes have a greater advantage isk wise than mining.

But like time, people do not have infinite money to spend so its not really a big deal that a player who uses plex's has an advantage. Someone who scams may get more isk per hour than both the average miner and plexer so in that instance the scammer has the advantage unless of course the plexer goes mad and buys $10,000 worth of plexes.

It is an advantage though.

That is what I am trying to convince people into seeing is that plexes favor thos with money in certain instances. Therfore is is midly pay to win and if was ever abused would result in a major game imbalance.

But truth be told, if a lotto winning player was smart, he'd just buy CCP instead of buying a million dollars worth of plexes and just dictate game policy that way.

Then you could say "He beat EvE".

I understand that you aren't trying to be hard core in your arguments (appreciated, by the way), but you're still missing the point... especially when you make statements like "Well technically you just paid some one $20 to win at a game of risk. I'm pretty sure that is "Pay to Win"." Bribing someone outside of a games mechanics does NOT make that game a Pay to Win game.

Of course the option to pay cash for a PLEX is an advantage for those with little in game money or time. The critical point you keep missing is that it is an advantage can be countered or matched by in game methods. No advantage is bestowed to the person throwing cash at the game that is not available to the person only using in game methods or can be taken away by the person only using in game methods.

You really need to try and wrap your head around that concept.

In your example the PLEXer goes crazy and drops $10,000 on PLEX's. Okay, what advantage did he gain that I can't counter or take away from him using in game methods? All he did was create a pile of ISK that can be accumulated in game (in many cases very quickly depending on the resources available to you) and even more easily taken away from him.

Like most EvE players I rub my hands in delight when I become aware of someone who equips themselves using real cash, whether he be a high sec mission runner or a Null Sec alliance officer.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Kathern Aurilen
#159 - 2013-01-29 22:15:22 UTC
Merouk Baas wrote:
How about PLEX for a drone that jumps through the gate and broadcasts to Local "Incoming Merouk Baas, flying (ship) with (actual value) billion ISK cargo value, make way, clear the area, stand aside!" then blinks red 3 times and self destructs like a firework?

To make it easier for me to travel.

Cause I don't want to travel unannounced.

And cause I like red.
like a BOSS!

No cuts, no butts, no coconuts!

Forum alt, unskilled in the ways of pewpew!

RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#160 - 2013-01-30 04:30:49 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
All he did was create a pile of ISK that can be accumulated in game (in many cases very quickly depending on the resources available to you) and even more easily taken away from him.


Nitpick*: He acquired a pile of ISK. No ISK was created. IF PLEX actually created ISK, I would consider it pay to win, because the advantage (ISK) was created in a way that bypassed normal game mechanics.

The nitpick even allows me to add something substantive:

My definition of P2W has two prongs, each of which tends to be the primary definition in different types of games:
1. Pay to Win is acquiring an advantage that cannot be matched through normal gameplay (Soulbound** Premium items in games that have that sort of things.)
OR
2. Pay to Win is acquiring an advantage whose creation bypasses normal gameplay (Even through you'd be able to trade Gold Ammo in EVE, it would still be pay to win because it bypasses the normal gameplay of item creation***).

I think your argument is sound using either your definition or my two pronged one.****

*on what's probably a typo, but I think it's an important point to have crystal clear for everyone.
**WOW Terms, what have I become?
***In this case, primarily putting Faction Ammo producers out of business.
****I like mine better because I'm pretty sure a strict reading of yours implies that Gold Ammo would not be P2W in EVE.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon