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Pay to win? Game Breaking?
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Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#121 - 2013-01-26 04:03:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Tardbar
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Captain Tardbar wrote:
If you don't plex and can't play 80 hours a week, then the player who either plays 80 hours a week or spends thousands of dollars in plex has an isk advantage over you.


When you take in to consideration the amount of people that just give me all of their stuff... No, they don't have an isk advantage over me at all. Just because someone spends a lot of time or money on the game doesn't mean they have more isk.


Well I am looking at this as a solo player...

A solo player can only play so much a week to earn isk. Whether or not they earn isk depends on thier SP and actual skill as a player. The amount of isk they can possibly earn in a day/week/month is a finite value. No matter what they do, they can only earn so much isk.

Now a soloplayer who is wealthy enough can earn more isk than a solo player playing by themselves can ever earn. That is true and you cannot deny that a plexer can buy more isk than a single player can earn on their own. That is an advantage wealth gives.


Of course in EvE you can leverage other player's wealth into your own whether by scamming, corp taxes, or donations. This is simply a multiplication of possible isk given players time. Each of those players who gave you the isk still are limited by the income they can earn in a given period of time.

In that respect, plex for isk is leveraging other players time.

You could argue the collective power that one could aquire with unlimited money could be as powerful as someone who has 10,000 man alliance.

Tho it would be more likley if you wanted that much power, that you would directly bribe the heads of such alliance instead of buying isk.

Now the fact could be that millionaires probaly don't play EvE, but if they did play EvE, they could leverage their money in a such a way that they could earn more wealth than is possible for a solo player or even a small corp could put together.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

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Celly S
Neutin Local LLC
#122 - 2013-01-26 04:47:24 UTC
Captain Tardbar wrote:

I'm not arguing that the whole idea of plex is a bad idea because it does give players the ability to enjoy the game without actually paying money. That is also an advantage for people who have less money than time.

I am just saying that someone with enough money could in theory earn more isk that is possible to earn by playing eve at any given time. That is an advantage. Is it play to win. Somewhat, but it is acceptable because that enables other players to play for free.

On a side note... If a player was well researched in EvE and decided to start playing. If they knew what they were doing the first thing they could do to have an advantage over other new players is to train Cybernetics to V and use plex to have hundreds of millions isk worth of implants and eventually they'll have a skill advantage over players who started the same time as they did.



Fair enough, let's go with that thought though for a moment, "I" really suck at the separate quote thingy, so I'll just do the old fashioned quotes in-line and see what you think of it... OK?
I also added some (text) where I think you might have typed something other than what you meant.

you:
"I am just saying that someone with enough money could in theory earn( i think you mean "have") more isk that is possible to earn by playing eve at any given time. That is an advantage."


Yes, they could have a wallet advantage, without a doubt, however while they may have more shinies (and I'm perfectly willing to give that and to give that the first part of your reply correctly stated that it also gave an advantage to folks who have more time than money), they still require time in game to be able to take any real advantage of those shinnies and their ability to buy/sell Plex gives an advantage to the person who has more time than money, so in essence, that's a wash in my view since the person buying the plex and selling it on the market is not the sole beneficiary of the deal.

I also believe that this is why CCP views it as acceptable since P2W is basically a "I Win" button and if I'm not the only one who benefits from it, then it's a "We Win" button, not "I".

you also said:
" If a player was well researched in EvE"

This is true and while there may not be as much of a "time" factor there, there is still one as the research would take time.
also Knowledge is power, so player A could have the same advantage by simply knowing what was going on, leveraging the market, ect ect, when player B didn't, RL money wouldn't have to be a factor just to have the same set of circumstances happen.

Here's something that follows your statement well though...

This toon, didn't go to +5 implants, but it is currently running the CA set and the other 3 basics, it also has the cerebral accelerator booster...
The current attributes of this toon exceeds my other "main" toons` training abilities and will continue to do so until this toon reaches the age of 35 days old at which time, It will drop down to a 3 point less set of attributes.
I bought a GTC and converted it to 2 x PLEX and then sold them, eventually transferring the funds from that other account to this one so as not to deplete the reserves I had on that account. The player who bought the PLEX from me, now has 2 months of Game time as well, so Win-Win.

This would be seen as P2W if we simply followed the base of your reply, however, "I" as a player, have the time invested in EvE to know how to do this, so "I" don't see any real advantage since my ability to create isks in game and my knowledge (time) in game allowed me to know what to do, but, the most relevant part of this is that this toon will still not be able to fly any ship that she hasn't trained for, so if I went and got some more PLEX, sold it and then bought some fancy BS, it would do me no good other than saying "I have (insert name here)".

thanks for reading.
o/
Celly

Don't mistake fact for arrogance, supposition for fact, or disagreement for dismissal. Perception is unique in that it can be shared or singular. Run with the pack if you wish, but think for yourself. A sandwich can be a great motivator.
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#123 - 2013-01-26 05:05:49 UTC
Stegas Tyrano wrote:
Would it be pay to win if, CCP sold drones for AUR that lets you look through gates and see what's on the other side? Doing this exists in the form of paying RL currency for a second account, why not scale price/functionality down and give us these camera spy drones thingies that look like this.


you can't just simplify it like this. Its like saying double my dps and tank with plex since its basically the same thing as multiboxing.

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
Lyrrashae
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#124 - 2013-01-26 05:58:55 UTC
Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog wrote:
OP took a bad idea (gate scout drones) and grafted it onto a good idea (pay real money to directly improve your ship).

What CCP should do is sell additional high-mid-low slots for AUR, one-time use items that can add up to 50% more slots to ANY ship. While also selling items that will permanently increase a ship's CPU, PG, and calibration limit (again, up to 50%, for example).

And the use AUR to purchase one-time increases to a ship's shield, armor, hull, capacitor . . . Shield recharge rate . . . Capacitor recharge rate . . . Resist profiles . . . You know, they missed to boat when they didn't make T3's all PTW through AUR.

You should also be able to use AUR purchases to bump people out of occupied manufacturing/research slots, or to buy one-time "skill point injections" that give you like 1,000,000 SP to use as you like per purchase.

Come on, Plexing is already pay-to-win, amirite? I wanna pay $240 in AUR to fly a frigate with 6 high/low/mid slots, native 10k shields, 100% EM resists and enough PG to equip large energy turrets.



You're trying to be edgy.

You're failing. Miserably.

Next!



Ni.
Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
#125 - 2013-01-26 06:26:14 UTC
Montevius Williams wrote:
Stegas Tyrano wrote:
Would it be pay to win if, CCP sold drones for AUR that lets you look through gates and see what's on the other side? Doing this exists in the form of paying RL currency for a second account, why not scale price/functionality down and give us these camera spy drones thingies that look like this.


Yes, it's pay to win because not everyone would be willign to spend real life money on something like that. Besides, you can get this nfo on the map already if you know what to look for.


The map is extraordinarily bad at conveying information. It is slow to update and never shows the whole picture. I have been in systems with 1000+ people shooting each other to ribbons, with the map saying something like "20 pilots in space, 5 ships destroyed in the last 30 mins".
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#126 - 2013-01-26 06:38:39 UTC
Akirei Scytale wrote:
Montevius Williams wrote:
Stegas Tyrano wrote:
Would it be pay to win if, CCP sold drones for AUR that lets you look through gates and see what's on the other side? Doing this exists in the form of paying RL currency for a second account, why not scale price/functionality down and give us these camera spy drones thingies that look like this.


Yes, it's pay to win because not everyone would be willign to spend real life money on something like that. Besides, you can get this nfo on the map already if you know what to look for.


The map is extraordinarily bad at conveying information. It is slow to update and never shows the whole picture. I have been in systems with 1000+ people shooting each other to ribbons, with the map saying something like "20 pilots in space, 5 ships destroyed in the last 30 mins".

Can't you get a newbie in a frigate (newbie optional, you can also use an alt trial account or something) to do that for you.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Mag's
Azn Empire
#127 - 2013-01-26 11:07:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
You aren't getting an advantage over anyone else though. You paid real money to save time, that doesn't give you an advantage.


I'm pretty sure time, as defined as being able to do things faster than other people, is considered an advantage.


Yet someone can get that exact same thing just as quickly with out spending real money. You seem to be having trouble understanding this.


Not if they don't have enough time.

A player who sits home in their mom's basment obviously has the advantage of time versus a player who works 40 hours and week and has to take their kids to after school activities.

The unemployed player has the advantage of time and therfore can earn more isk.

The employed player has the advantage of money and can trade the advantage of money for the advantage of time.

It can somewhat balance itself out, but if a player spent $10,000 on plex, they would have the advantage of about a years worth of time that is basically impossible for a player with one account to acheive in a year.

If that rich player kept buying $10,000 isk per year (well they'd deflate the plex market but) then there is no way for even a unemployed player to ever catch up.

On that note, wealth is obiously an advantage. You can fly better ships, trade in higher volumes, and get access to hi-end manufacturing that low income players will never acheive. You can use that wealth to hire mercs, supply your corp with better pvp ships, and throw gank ships at problems of yours.

Now if you say time equals wealth. If that is true than time is also an advantage because time is a scare resource.

Does that make sense?

If everyone in the game played the same exact hours then yeah, time would not be an advantage, but the truth of the matter is not everyone can play 80 hours a week.

[edit]

On a side note that I wanted to add, is that if a new player plex's their account from day one, they can buy implants and better ships to earn more isk faster than they would if they worked their way up to that point. Now that has the disadvantage of not learning the game, but in truth they'd have a wealth advantage over a new player who would have to spend all that time earning a lower rate of isk. Overall the wealthier plexer is at a perment higher advantage becaues even if the regular player catches up they still have lost the time advantage from those early earnings.

Its why startup businesses want capital to start out big instead of starting out small. Because the more time you spend at higher incomes, the more advantage you have in the market.
But more time in the context of Eve play, is an advantage. The more time you play, the better you know the game and ship you fly.
Any scenario you create in order to claim time as an advantage either way, can be recreated to show it's not. This is why time cannot be considered Pay2Win.

We are talking about a definite in game advantage, one you're only able to gain through the payment of real life cash.

Items only available through real life cash, are only available through real life cash. Therefore Pay2Win.

One could argue that any modules, ships etc. spawned with real life cash, is also Pay2Win. As this bypasses the normal game play creation process. In that situation, it's the spawning process itself that is the concern and could be argued to be Pay2Win.

The one thing you and everyone else forgets, every time when trying to argue that time or ISK is Pay2Win. That is the game time paid for.
It hasn't magically disappeared, simply because someone swapped it for ISK. Until used or lost, that 30 days access to the server, remains with the Plex. Do you remember, the thing someone paid real life cash for? Game time?

Next you'll be saying Eve is Free2Play.

Someone that is money rich but time poor, can help those time rich but money poor, with a Plex. If anything, it's a levelling system, not a Pay2Win one.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#128 - 2013-01-26 16:38:35 UTC
Things I've learned in this thread.

Some people think that paying money for an account (or more than one account) is pay to win.

Some people think that being able to play longer than someone else is pay to win.

Some people think that the time spent playing has a linear relationship with how much and how fast ISK can be earned in game.

Some people think that the ability to pay cash for powerful items in game, without spending the time to know how to actually use them, is an advantage to the person that bought the item. Big smile

Some people think that multi boxing multiple accounts is an advantage over having separate players flying those accounts.

Some people think that you can only have multiple accounts by paying cash.

Some people think that by spending more cash on PLEX, and allowing others to play the game purely by spending imaginary ISK, they are somehow gaining an advantage over them... and ignoring the fact that they could achieve the same ends by being a better (and more intelligent) player and saving their cash.

Some people chose to ignore the numerous examples we see every day in EvE where a player throws large amounts of cash at the game, and ends up merely transferring that wealth to other players (who often play accounts funded purely by ISK) via loot drops and/or bad marketing decisions and/or scams.

Some people have no idea what pay to win actually is.

A very informative (and somewhat amusing if a bit sad) thread overall.



View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#129 - 2013-01-26 18:18:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Tardbar
Mag's wrote:
But more time in the context of Eve play, is an advantage. The more time you play, the better you know the game and ship you fly.
Any scenario you create in order to claim time as an advantage either way, can be recreated to show it's not. This is why time cannot be considered Pay2Win.

We are talking about a definite in game advantage, one you're only able to gain through the payment of real life cash.

Items only available through real life cash, are only available through real life cash. Therefore Pay2Win.

One could argue that any modules, ships etc. spawned with real life cash, is also Pay2Win. As this bypasses the normal game play creation process. In that situation, it's the spawning process itself that is the concern and could be argued to be Pay2Win.

The one thing you and everyone else forgets, every time when trying to argue that time or ISK is Pay2Win. That is the game time paid for.
It hasn't magically disappeared, simply because someone swapped it for ISK. Until used or lost, that 30 days access to the server, remains with the Plex. Do you remember, the thing someone paid real life cash for? Game time?

Next you'll be saying Eve is Free2Play.

Someone that is money rich but time poor, can help those time rich but money poor, with a Plex. If anything, it's a levelling system, not a Pay2Win one.


Well to bring something in from Macroeconomics 101, there is something that we call absolute advantage and comprarative advantage.

If we are speaking in EvE terms, someone with comparitive advantage has the advantage of wealth but not skills but also could be someone with no wealth but has skills which is always better than a player with no skills or wealth, and on that note, someone with an absolute advantage has the advantage of both wealth and skills.

Now the player with an absolute always has an advantage of either of the players with the comparative advantage so they will always come out ahead in most circumstances.

As I have stated before players can only earn so much isk wealth with their time per week, which allows a player with real money wealth to always leverage an in game isk advantage.

So if the player has both skills and wealth, they can usually beat someone with skills and less wealth which means wealth is the deciding factor is player advantage.

I'm not arguing eve is completly F2P (it can be F2P for some), but the truth is that real world wealth can always leverage more isk than a player can possibly earn on their own in a given time frame. If skills being equal (which they will be over time) then the player with the most wealth will usually win.

If player skills being equal, a billion isk ship will usually beat a 100 million isk ship (and by player skill I mean knowing how to fit a ship for PvP correctly and knowing how to use that ship in combat).

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

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Mag's
Azn Empire
#130 - 2013-01-26 19:04:18 UTC
Captain Tardbar wrote:


Well to bring something in from Macroeconomics 101, there is something that we call absolute advantage and comprarative advantage.

If we are speaking in EvE terms, someone with comparitive advantage has the advantage of wealth but not skills but also could be someone with no wealth but has skills which is always better than a player with no skills or wealth, and on that note, someone with an absolute advantage has the advantage of both wealth and skills.

Now the player with an absolute always has an advantage of either of the players with the comparative advantage so they will always come out ahead in most circumstances.

As I have stated before players can only earn so much isk wealth with their time per week, which allows a player with real money wealth to always leverage an in game isk advantage.

So if the player has both skills and wealth, they can usually beat someone with skills and less wealth which means wealth is the deciding factor is player advantage.

I'm not arguing eve is completly F2P (it can be F2P for some), but the truth is that real world wealth can always leverage more isk than a player can possibly earn on their own in a given time frame. If skills being equal (which they will be over time) then the player with the most wealth will usually win.

If player skills being equal, a billion isk ship will usually beat a 100 million isk ship (and by player skill I mean knowing how to fit a ship for PvP correctly and knowing how to use that ship in combat).
You're now simply arguing semantics, thinking it matters somehow in the regard of what is and isn't Pay2Win. It doesn't.

An individual playing for free, doesn't equate to Eve being Free2Play. Either partially or completely.

Skills may be equal, but player skillz are not. Player skillz require more time in Eve to improve, not less.

If someone traded a Plex, they traded it with Player earned ISK. Not ISK spawned from real life cash.

ISK, doesn't mean win.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#131 - 2013-01-26 23:05:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Tardbar
Mag's wrote:
You're now simply arguing semantics, thinking it matters somehow in the regard of what is and isn't Pay2Win. It doesn't.

An individual playing for free, doesn't equate to Eve being Free2Play. Either partially or completely.

Skills may be equal, but player skillz are not. Player skillz require more time in Eve to improve, not less.

If someone traded a Plex, they traded it with Player earned ISK. Not ISK spawned from real life cash.

ISK, doesn't mean win.


There are three flaws in your logic:

1. You assume skilled players can't be financially wealthy.

2. You assume unskilled players can't leverage other players with wealth.

3. You assume that players can earn infinite wealth given enough time in game.

For my first point, there is nothing that prevents a highly skilled and wealthy player from leveraging Plex purchases. There is also a possibility that a new player can learn faster and be better skilled at EvE than some veterans. These skill players can also purchase chracters from the bazar and gain equality simply through their own wealth which puts them are par with old veterns.

For my second point, you assume that an unskilled player can't leverage their in game wealth to have an advantage over other players. I know wealthy industrialists hire mercs all the goddamn time because of war decs and actually win the war. They don't need to be skilled. They only need to leverage their wealth in such a way they can beat their opponents through the use of other players.

Finally, and I keep repeating in this in all my posts and no one seems to understand either from lack of comprehension or maybe they aren't reading my posts but here it is again:

A player can only make so much isk in game given a period of time. A player who has enough real world money can in theory aquire more isk than a player who simply earns it the normal way in game.

Yes you are only transfering isk from players to another player, but you are doing this through paying CCP to create an item that is useful to other players only in terms of letting them play for free. Using a plex in itself does not give the player an advantage over another player. Getting isk gives advantage over other players.

When you trade isk for a plex you are trading away your isk advantage. That means the person that you transfered the isk to have a wealth advantage over you. You can proceed to earn isk by normals methods, but again, you can only earn so much isk given a period of time. You cannot play 80 hours a week and earn infinite isk.

The key reason for this is that a single player can use their real world wealth to leverage many players efforts into their own. I don't know how to make this any clearer. A player can use real world money to make themselves more wealthy in game. Wealth equals power and power equals advantage. Its not an absolute advantage in the cases where the player doesn't know how to leverage their wealth (being skilled and what not) but players who understand how to leverage wealth have a clear and present advantage of players who do not have wealth.

Let me be clear. This isn't really a big deal because not many people spend $10,000 on EvE but there is the potential for them to do so.

Imagine a crazy player who won the lottery and basically dumped plex onto the market until they had the majority of the wealth. They could dictate the market and could fund a major alliance by themselves.

Unlikley, but possible.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

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Mag's
Azn Empire
#132 - 2013-01-26 23:14:12 UTC
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Mag's wrote:
You're now simply arguing semantics, thinking it matters somehow in the regard of what is and isn't Pay2Win. It doesn't.

An individual playing for free, doesn't equate to Eve being Free2Play. Either partially or completely.

Skills may be equal, but player skillz are not. Player skillz require more time in Eve to improve, not less.

If someone traded a Plex, they traded it with Player earned ISK. Not ISK spawned from real life cash.

ISK, doesn't mean win.


There are three flaws in your logic:

1. You assume skilled players can't be financially wealthy.

2. You assume unskilled players can't leverage other players with wealth.

3. You assume that players can earn infinite wealth given enough time in game.

1. No.

2. No.

3. No.

But thanks anyway.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#133 - 2013-01-26 23:25:41 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Mag's wrote:
You're now simply arguing semantics, thinking it matters somehow in the regard of what is and isn't Pay2Win. It doesn't.

An individual playing for free, doesn't equate to Eve being Free2Play. Either partially or completely.

Skills may be equal, but player skillz are not. Player skillz require more time in Eve to improve, not less.

If someone traded a Plex, they traded it with Player earned ISK. Not ISK spawned from real life cash.

ISK, doesn't mean win.


There are three flaws in your logic:

1. You assume skilled players can't be financially wealthy.

2. You assume unskilled players can't leverage other players with wealth.

3. You assume that players can earn infinite wealth given enough time in game.

1. No.

2. No.

3. No.

But thanks anyway.



You know if you don't actually give a reason, that it makes you look like you are wrong and that I am right.

Also a bit more herp derp.

Also...

If we logically take your answers to be true then:

1. All skilled EvE players are poor and unemployed.

2. No one hires mercs and all those Crime and Punishment posts are lies.

3. Everyone has an infinity symbol in their wallet.

Great job!

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

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Mag's
Azn Empire
#134 - 2013-01-26 23:36:32 UTC
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Mag's wrote:
You're now simply arguing semantics, thinking it matters somehow in the regard of what is and isn't Pay2Win. It doesn't.

An individual playing for free, doesn't equate to Eve being Free2Play. Either partially or completely.

Skills may be equal, but player skillz are not. Player skillz require more time in Eve to improve, not less.

If someone traded a Plex, they traded it with Player earned ISK. Not ISK spawned from real life cash.

ISK, doesn't mean win.


There are three flaws in your logic:

1. You assume skilled players can't be financially wealthy.

2. You assume unskilled players can't leverage other players with wealth.

3. You assume that players can earn infinite wealth given enough time in game.

1. No.

2. No.

3. No.

But thanks anyway.



You know if you don't actually give a reason, that it makes you look like you are wrong and that I am right.

Also a bit more herp derp.

Also...

If we logically take your answers to be true then:

1. All skilled EvE players are poor and unemployed.

2. No one hires mercs and all those Crime and Punishment posts are lies.

3. Everyone has an infinity symbol in their wallet.

Great job!
It was a short reply, simply because it had no relation to anything I said. If you want to put words into my mouth and think I'll accept them, you're sadly mistaken. But thanks anyway. Big smile

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#135 - 2013-01-26 23:45:25 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Mag's wrote:
You're now simply arguing semantics, thinking it matters somehow in the regard of what is and isn't Pay2Win. It doesn't.

An individual playing for free, doesn't equate to Eve being Free2Play. Either partially or completely.

Skills may be equal, but player skillz are not. Player skillz require more time in Eve to improve, not less.

If someone traded a Plex, they traded it with Player earned ISK. Not ISK spawned from real life cash.

ISK, doesn't mean win.


There are three flaws in your logic:

1. You assume skilled players can't be financially wealthy.

2. You assume unskilled players can't leverage other players with wealth.

3. You assume that players can earn infinite wealth given enough time in game.

1. No.

2. No.

3. No.

But thanks anyway.



You know if you don't actually give a reason, that it makes you look like you are wrong and that I am right.

Also a bit more herp derp.

Also...

If we logically take your answers to be true then:

1. All skilled EvE players are poor and unemployed.

2. No one hires mercs and all those Crime and Punishment posts are lies.

3. Everyone has an infinity symbol in their wallet.

Great job!
It was a short reply, simply because it had no relation to anything I said. If you want to put words into my mouth and think I'll accept them, you're sadly mistaken. But thanks anyway. Big smile


If you don't answer my questions nor try to disprove my argumentative points with clear and logical responses like they teach in high school English, then I suppose I have won this forum fight.

I will commence with the smugness.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

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Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#136 - 2013-01-26 23:51:07 UTC
If you really want to see "pay to win" metagaming, form up a giant alliance - say 10,000 players or more - and then get them all to threaten to unsub if you don't get way with something.

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0
Mag's
Azn Empire
#137 - 2013-01-27 00:16:50 UTC
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Mag's wrote:
It was a short reply, simply because it had no relation to anything I said. If you want to put words into my mouth and think I'll accept them, you're sadly mistaken. But thanks anyway. Big smile


If you don't answer my questions nor try to disprove my argumentative points with clear and logical responses like they teach in high school English, then I suppose I have won this forum fight.

I will commence with the smugness.
You created 3 points in which you said that I assumed certain things. Then proceeded to post a reply to those 3 points. As I didn't assume any of those points, the rest of your post is irrelevant to me.

If you believe this to be some sort of E-Victory, then grats I guess. Big smile

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#138 - 2013-01-27 01:44:12 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Mag's wrote:
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Mag's wrote:
It was a short reply, simply because it had no relation to anything I said. If you want to put words into my mouth and think I'll accept them, you're sadly mistaken. But thanks anyway. Big smile


If you don't answer my questions nor try to disprove my argumentative points with clear and logical responses like they teach in high school English, then I suppose I have won this forum fight.

I will commence with the smugness.
You created 3 points in which you said that I assumed certain things. Then proceeded to post a reply to those 3 points. As I didn't assume any of those points, the rest of your post is irrelevant to me.

If you believe this to be some sort of E-Victory, then grats I guess. Big smile



Oh, Mag's, why can't you just be a good guy and accept his straw men as valid basis for argument?


.... and please stop trying to eat my soul with your eyes....

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#139 - 2013-01-27 18:46:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Quote:
As I have stated before players can only earn so much isk wealth with their time per week, which allows a player with real money wealth to always leverage an in game isk advantage.


Just pointing out one of the more obvious flaws in your argument.

Not everyone earns their ISK farming as many rats as they can in a day, or mining as much veld as they can take in per hour. In fact, none of the wealthier players in game do.

I think most of us that have been around for a while know the frequency where those who scam or infiltrate often earn 10's or even 100's of billions of ISK in a single day.
Or market traders/manipulators that can achieve similar results.
Or alliance leaders that over time dwarf the overall income of either one of the previous examples.

Your income in EvE is limited by how clever you are, and your personal skills, not hours per day or the number of skills you have accumulated over time.


As for the "winning" part of pay to win, how exactly do you pay to WIN in EvE?

Lets say you are a wealthy and somewhat unbalanced millionaire with nothing better to spend your money on than a video game. Big smileBig smileBig smile

Do you win by throwing money at large numbers of accounts and the hardware to run them simultaneously? If so then how do you win even then?

Do you form your own mining fleets to accumulate more wealth to win that way? No, your average botter that only paid for his first account with money will outstrip you in income easily AND know how to avoid getting caught.

Do you form a fleet of Titans and go take power by force? No, you'll lock horns with a player that runs a powerful alliance according to his whims (and who is likely not spending a dime of his own money on his accounts) who will crush you because he is a superior player (with superior personal skills) that enable him to direct other players to stomp you. He is also likely able to fund as many in game assets as you are, even with your throwing huge amounts of cash at the game. The end result is you simply feed him your money in losses/loot.

Perhaps you seek to control the market or related payouts like FW payouts, to the extent where you WIN at EvE. Except you'll always find someone better at it than you and he'll simply take your money without even tipping his hat... or has been shown you'll get so carried away that it comes to CCP's notice and they'll pull the plug on your operation.

You see, there isn't a thing you can purchase in game with money that I can't buy with ISK. To be perfectly honest, there isn't a thing you can buy in this game with money that I can't take away from you without spending a dime.

If you find you need to throw tons of cash at EvE to succeed it is only because you already lack the personal skills necessary to do so... and that won't change no matter how much money you invest... because there are plenty of people out there that can succeed better than you without needing to blow the cash.

The simple truth is, when you get good enough at EvE to make a "reasonably" sincere claim as to having "won" EvE Big smile, you are a good enough player to not NEED to spend real cash to do so. Blink

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Jaiimez Skor
The Infamous.
#140 - 2013-01-27 18:49:02 UTC
Montevius Williams wrote:
Stegas Tyrano wrote:
So spending RL money or Plex for a second account isn't? Everyone who replied is a noob.


Do you have a better way to curb Gold or isk farming? Plex is fine. What's next? Spending Aurum for T3 Weapons...We've been down this path before. They damn near burned Jita to the ground.

No Aurum for any type of strategic advantage.

Aurum is fine for cosmetic. I'd love to see Aurum to have custom paint jobs or Corp Logos or Pirate eye patches.


+1