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Question concerning Industrial Corps.
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Aricaan
Rum and Quafe
#1 - 2013-01-26 18:53:50 UTC
Been playing for years now, and seriously considering joining either a High Sec or Worm Hole Industrial corp.

Anyway, the few industrial corps that I have been looking into all want me to mine for basically for free, and this seems like an absurd waste of my Eve Time.

Is it to much to ask for an Industrial corp that will pay maybe a little less than the local market value?

I understand the idea and value of team work, but to have me spend hours in a mining op only to get zero compensation seems like a complete rip.
Cavilha
Tupy Industries
#2 - 2013-01-26 21:14:30 UTC
We are a small industrial corp. We live in WH.
If interested contact we talking
Dave Stark
#3 - 2013-01-26 23:08:41 UTC
yes, high sec corps have nothing to offer miners.
none of them, that i've seen, offer competitive prices on ore/mineral buyback. you end up selling at a loss.
if you have your own orca then them offering orca boosts means nothing because your own orca still sits in an orca and hauls instead of being an additional miner like some people think it would.

in short; miners gain nothing from player corps. may as well stay in the NPC corp and be wardec immune and join some active chat channels if you want to be social.
Dudley North
Interstellar Investments and Securities
#4 - 2013-01-27 01:12:08 UTC
What the OP describes is indeed a rip-off, you are basically just enriching the corporation's owners. There are far too many corps who regard regular members just as minions to be exploited.

That said though, ask around. The more reputable mining/industrial corps divvy up mining op shares using a spreadsheet/program advertised ahead of time (there are plenty out there). Generally this is worth doing because you will get mining boosts for all your characters and mine more than you would going it alone.

It can be a fine line though, especially if your own skills outstrip those of other corp members (look for a corp whio'se members have a similar leve of skill to your own).

Bear in mind that this is a multi-player game, and the social aspects of working with others and making friends should not be underestimated.

Also, Eve is such that working in a group will give you access to areas inaccessible to a single player working alone (Worm Holes and Null are the obvious examples), with a greatly enhanced revenue possibility that offsets any "loss".

With that in mind don't be afraid to ask hard questions of prospective corporations. Don't be afraid to put your own point of view and ask up-front how working with their corp will leave you better off than working alone. Get them to sell themselves! If they object or take umbrage then it's probably not a corp you'd be happy in anyway.
Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#5 - 2013-01-27 01:20:20 UTC
Dudley North speaks truth

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
Marsan
#6 - 2013-01-27 02:13:08 UTC
High Sec Indy corps are generally a bad idea unless their tax rate is really low, or they have profitable mining ops. Not to mention the potential for war decs. Wormholes are interesting but a purely wspace indy corp doesn't tend to work well. Grav sites and gas in wspace just aren't common enough to keep you busy. What does work is a mix of mining, and site running.

Former forum cheerleader CCP, now just a grumpy small portion of the community.
Aricaan
Rum and Quafe
#7 - 2013-01-27 04:41:40 UTC
Dudley North wrote:
What the OP describes is indeed a rip-off, you are basically just enriching the corporation's owners. There are far too many corps who regard regular members just as minions to be exploited.

That said though, ask around. The more reputable mining/industrial corps divvy up mining op shares using a spreadsheet/program advertised ahead of time (there are plenty out there). Generally this is worth doing because you will get mining boosts for all your characters and mine more than you would going it alone.

It can be a fine line though, especially if your own skills outstrip those of other corp members (look for a corp whio'se members have a similar leve of skill to your own).

Bear in mind that this is a multi-player game, and the social aspects of working with others and making friends should not be underestimated.

Also, Eve is such that working in a group will give you access to areas inaccessible to a single player working alone (Worm Holes and Null are the obvious examples), with a greatly enhanced revenue possibility that offsets any "loss".

With that in mind don't be afraid to ask hard questions of prospective corporations. Don't be afraid to put your own point of view and ask up-front how working with their corp will leave you better off than working alone. Get them to sell themselves! If they object or take umbrage then it's probably not a corp you'd be happy in anyway.



Hah, are you recruiting? ;)
Kaivar Lancer
Doomheim
#8 - 2013-01-27 04:49:39 UTC
Don't do it. There's little difference between an indy corp and mining solo. Yes you can get boosts, but you lose your independence. This poses a heavy opportunity cost, esp. if you want to do something different like exploration or PVP. And you're expected to mine where the corp wants you to, which may be out in some bumhole null sec system.
binary cat
R-ISK
#9 - 2013-01-27 09:13:57 UTC
Not all are the same.


Whe are hisec indy corp.

0% tax
almost all day orca boost /offgrid/
Free research slots /ME, PE, Copy, Inv/
100%refining
buyback - 95% jita price

We refine and members can keep minerals if they want.

I agree that reson for many hiscec corp is to make CEO rich.

bc
Dave Stark
#10 - 2013-01-27 09:56:07 UTC
binary cat wrote:
Not all are the same.


Whe are hisec indy corp.

0% tax
almost all day orca boost /offgrid/
Free research slots /ME, PE, Copy, Inv/
100%refining
buyback - 95% jita price

We refine and members can keep minerals if they want.

I agree that reson for many hiscec corp is to make CEO rich.

bc


as i pointed out in my original post, offers nothing.

offgrid orca bonuses means your own personal orca (if you have one) is still not going to be mining, it'll be a glorified hauler. (and you don't get to pick the ganglinks)

100% refining is obtainable by any one who wants to spend a day, maybe two running a few quick missions for standings (skills are a non-issue as you need them for t2 crystals anyway)

buyback 95% of jita price. when a freighter of minerals is close to 1bn isk that's 50m lost on every 1bn isk of minerals, i'm pretty sure it costs me less than that to pay red frog and broker fees/transaction tax. not to mention, is that 95% of sell orders, or buy orders?

please don't mistake me for attacking your corp, i'm honestly not doing that. i'm just pointing out that there isn't really anything that high sec corps can offer a miner that makes it worth them leaving the safety of unwardecable NPC corporations.

in order to seem like less of an arse; you have a nice low tax rate, then again unless you're running missions it is totally irrelevant as high sec belt rats don't generate enough isk to even be subject to tax. also, you offer free research slots, that's awesome to a player who is an all round industrialist however, for players who are just miners it's irrelevant.

over all your corp seems nice and i wish you all the luck, but, i can't help but point out it does nothing for people who are *just* miners. it's an issue CCP really needs to look at.
Dudley North
Interstellar Investments and Securities
#11 - 2013-01-27 12:00:56 UTC
Aricaan wrote:
Hah, are you recruiting? ;)


Thanks for the enquiry, but my industrial career has progressed to the "personal industrial empire" level Big smile. (This is my "inoffensive trade alt").

One thing I forgot to mention to watch out for, that is extremely common, is the "PvP feeder corporation". These will often present themselves as an industrial corp, but exist solely to supply the "main" corporation with ships and materials. Needless to say such corporations are a total waste of time for someone interested in the industrial side (I speak from bitter experience here!).

High-Sec indy corps should really be regarded as a stepping stone to other areas of the game rather than an end in themselves (otherwise things will get very dull).

Another option to think about is to create your own corporation and join an alliance of like-minded industrialists. All the advantages of a social structure, allies, joint operations, etc and you can actually run your own POS's without interferance. (It has to be said the current in-game corporation tools are rubbish for industrialists as they stand with a lack of security, inability to deploy personal POS etc, etc). This option does require a fair amount of time and capital from yourself though.

Best of luck with whatever route you decide to go.
Sidrat Flush
KarmaFleet
#12 - 2013-01-27 15:33:50 UTC
As ana ex ceo it was never up to me who the members sold their ore or minerals to. In order to be competitive I adjusted the buy prices on a two day basis sometimes daily. Having buy orders on corp contracts and the general market means the corp had a wider net to obtain materials and low meta rat loot to refine later.

If someone contacted me saying all they want to do in eve is mine I'd be concerned for their state of mind or possibly believe they're alts who may be used for botting.

Its time to stand up against the bad empire based CEO telling falsehoods about what new characters can accomplish and pushing them towards an in game experience of drudgery and loneliness keeping them in the shadow of ignorance for at nest their own profit at worse apathy towards all the experiences that Eve has to offer.
Dave Stark
#13 - 2013-01-27 20:21:01 UTC
Sidrat Flush wrote:
If someone contacted me saying all they want to do in eve is mine I'd be concerned for their state of mind or possibly believe they're alts who may be used for botting.


hey there's nothing wrong with-... actually, you might be right. damn.
Aricaan
Rum and Quafe
#14 - 2013-01-27 21:06:49 UTC
Sidrat Flush wrote:
As ana ex ceo it was never up to me who the members sold their ore or minerals to. In order to be competitive I adjusted the buy prices on a two day basis sometimes daily. Having buy orders on corp contracts and the general market means the corp had a wider net to obtain materials and low meta rat loot to refine later.

If someone contacted me saying all they want to do in eve is mine I'd be concerned for their state of mind or possibly believe they're alts who may be used for botting.


I personally just want the company. I dont want to play an MMO, by myself, although my RL might force me too.

Im one of the few eHonor players out there, and Mining/Missions seems to be the best route in EVE. I can only play for a few hours a night if at all, and mining just seems to be the best thing to do. Yeah yeah yeah, EVE is about PVP, and I actually like Eve Online for that... but because I dont have to be a killer, I think makes it better.

I dont know... maybe i am playing this game wrong and should quit.

Who wants my stuff?

Blink
Styth spiting
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2013-01-28 08:04:46 UTC
Aricaan wrote:
Been playing for years now, and seriously considering joining either a High Sec or Worm Hole Industrial corp.

Anyway, the few industrial corps that I have been looking into all want me to mine for basically for free, and this seems like an absurd waste of my Eve Time.

Is it to much to ask for an Industrial corp that will pay maybe a little less than the local market value?

I understand the idea and value of team work, but to have me spend hours in a mining op only to get zero compensation seems like a complete rip.


Many industrial corps run 2 types of mining operations.

1) For profit mining ops. People involved get a payout. The payout totally depends on how they handle payouts and normally has a % taken out for the corp. Generally miners mine, and the corp handles hauling, refining, hauling to trade hubs and selling. Generally corps will take 5% - 10% max.

2) Non-profit mining ops. These are ops where all the profit goes to the corp to pay for whatever fees items that are planned to be bought. Generally these pay for ship replacements, skill books, mining crystals/drones, POS, and whatever. Corps I have been in have done 1 of these per week or per month.

A few things you might not be realizing is that when mining in a corp mining op changes are you will have a maxed out Orca boosting, which increases your mining yield by 59%. This means even if the corp takes 10% of the yield you are still making 50% more then if you were mining solo.

Also do you have any idea how long it takes to haul a minin ops amount of ore/minerals?, or to sell it? After you take into consideration standing grinding, skill training for refining, skill training for selling and standing grinding for selling as well as training for an orca/freighter and the chances of ganks, time spent hauling etc. etc. having your corp take a little bit off the top is very worth it.

Also no one is ever going to pay you "local market value". They will pay out trade hub buy order value, which might be better / worst then your local. Generally Jita buy order prices will be used.

And finally if you want to join a mining corp and not be involved in the non-profit mining ops then just dont join them for those. Just remember when you need something or lose a ship or are short on isk your corp mates will know if you've been involved in any of these ops and chances are will not help you out (because why should they, you haven't helped out the corp). Don't expect many corps that want someone who simply takes everything they can get and gives nothing in return.
Toku Jiang
Jiang Laboratories and Discovery
#16 - 2013-01-28 15:37:36 UTC
If your just looking for company there are several public chat channels, unless of course your talking about TS. I would have to agree with everyone else that a high sec corp really offers very little to the average eve player other than a low tax rate, which you can start your own corp and join it to avoid that. You might get war dec, but few people waste their time on a war dec of a two or three member corp. Essentially there just aren't enough targets to bother with or find for that matter.
Akira Menoko
Silnare
#17 - 2013-01-28 21:06:41 UTC
Aricaan wrote:
Been playing for years now, and seriously considering joining either a High Sec or Worm Hole Industrial corp.

Anyway, the few industrial corps that I have been looking into all want me to mine for basically for free, and this seems like an absurd waste of my Eve Time.

Is it to much to ask for an Industrial corp that will pay maybe a little less than the local market value?

I understand the idea and value of team work, but to have me spend hours in a mining op only to get zero compensation seems like a complete rip.


I haven't gone looking for a corp in quite a while so I may not be fully qualified to answer this anymore, but I've got some perspective on running (or at least trying to run) an indy corp.

In my opinion High Sec industrial corps can run the gamut between "complete ripoff" and "the hand of Midas." I'm sure there are quite a few that are out to exploit members before they wise up to it and leave, but I think more are simply just poorly run. Typically the best way to avoid those is to ask questions and look at what they expect from you. If they want you to mine for free whenever you are on, then obviously that's a bad choice.

Better run corps have usually found a way to "give back" to the members or provide some sort of perk or benefit. Actually paying a fair price for ore is one. I think 90-95% of jita buy orders is a fair amount depending on the location of the corp and what else it offers. Some corps have POS towers and offer free or low cost use of the research slots, which is a nice benefit if you've ever tried to get an ME slot in highsec. Some maintain a BPO library that members may freely build off of. Some even have ship replacement programs or offer members free T1 mining ships and gear. And of course there is the comrarderie, assuming they're friendly.

It can be annoying and lengthy process to find a corp that is a good fit for your personality, play style, play times, goals, and anything else you can think of. But if you can find a group you can mesh well with, it'll be worth it.
Akira Menoko
Silnare
#18 - 2013-01-28 21:27:17 UTC
Dudley North wrote:

One thing I forgot to mention to watch out for, that is extremely common, is the "PvP feeder corporation". These will often present themselves as an industrial corp, but exist solely to supply the "main" corporation with ships and materials. Needless to say such corporations are a total waste of time for someone interested in the industrial side (I speak from bitter experience here!).


I've never experienced this myself, but I would think this would be a good thing since it may give you an opportunity to expand into PvP as well as guaranteed customers for more ships. But I can see how it can be terribly bad if they treat you like a slave at the ores of a galley.

Dudley North wrote:

High-Sec indy corps should really be regarded as a stepping stone to other areas of the game rather than an end in themselves (otherwise things will get very dull).


Can't disagree with this, especially if the corp has no goals to grow into other areas. If they do, they can be good to stick with if you like the direction they are heading.

Dudley North wrote:

Another option to think about is to create your own corporation and join an alliance of like-minded industrialists. All the advantages of a social structure, allies, joint operations, etc and you can actually run your own POS's without interferance. (It has to be said the current in-game corporation tools are rubbish for industrialists as they stand with a lack of security, inability to deploy personal POS etc, etc). This option does require a fair amount of time and capital from yourself though.


As I try to plan out the expansion of my corp form "small group of friends" to "Big Industrial," I keep running into the security problem with in-game management tools. Unfortunately this ends up limiting the size of industrial corps and prevents you from having and running a large corp. Hopefully I'll figure out some workarounds, otherwise my corp will have to be a cabal of smaller ones.