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Need advise to choose a ship for L4s
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McGeek Ellecon
Lambda Initiative
#1 - 2013-01-23 21:10:42 UTC  |  Edited by: McGeek Ellecon
Hi

I'm having a mix of skills in gunnery, got large weapons trained for all 3 turrets, all at 3
Got heavy/light missiles at 3 as well, and I can fit T2 low but no good shield skills

I can fly now Amarr battleships, the other factions I can fly up to battlecruisers
My total SP is 4.2 million
I want to do L4 missions, I tried going with Apocalypse but got screwed up in "The Assault", mainly due to damage type

So I'm kinda lost between going Maelstrom or Raven for L4 missions, I got advise as well from a friend to go Drake, but that is a battlecruiser...

Can someone please advise me based on the above information, I'm a low-sp char, if I go with Raven I have to train shield tanking to at least level 4, and I have to get cruise missiles as well
If I go with Maelstrom I'll need to train shield tanking as well to level 4
If I go Drake I'll have to train shield tank as well

So in all cases for Maelstrom or Drake/Raven I have to train shield tank

But I would like to know what is the best out of these 3 ships in general and for my situation

Thanks!
Piugattuk
Litla Sundlaugin
#2 - 2013-01-23 21:21:08 UTC
Raven atm because soooo many changes to AI and you'll get damped to death or disrupted to heii at least with missiles it has less effect when disrupted and you can fit sensor booster to get more out of missiles.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#3 - 2013-01-23 21:25:32 UTC
t2 shield tanks require lvl 4 shield skills (except for t2 boost amps and t2 XL boosters)
t2 armor tanks require 1 level 5 armor skill

any weapon system you pick you'll need to get it and all associated skills to 4 ASAP.

how are your drone skills?

Amarr battleships can be pretty good, but only if you're missioning for an amarr corp in amarr space (to get missions vs sansha bloodraider and rogue drones)

Maelstrom is pretty good all around I believe, and I would suggest continuing to train projectile turrets and shield skills and use this ship.

Raven has always been workable with low skills, cruise missiles, and a CL-5 booster. Not the fastest once you start getting more SP, but skills are transferable to CNR or SNI.

Gallente ships require moderately large investments in gunnery and drones.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
McGeek Ellecon
Lambda Initiative
#4 - 2013-01-23 21:34:09 UTC
Batelle wrote:
t2 shield tanks require lvl 4 shield skills (except for t2 boost amps and t2 XL boosters)
t2 armor tanks require 1 level 5 armor skill

any weapon system you pick you'll need to get it and all associated skills to 4 ASAP.

how are your drone skills?

Amarr battleships can be pretty good, but only if you're missioning for an amarr corp in amarr space (to get missions vs sansha bloodraider and rogue drones)

Maelstrom is pretty good all around I believe, and I would suggest continuing to train projectile turrets and shield skills and use this ship.

Raven has always been workable with low skills, cruise missiles, and a CL-5 booster. Not the fastest once you start getting more SP, but skills are transferable to CNR or SNI.

Gallente ships require moderately large investments in gunnery and drones.

Yea I'm not even thinking about Gallente atm

My drone skills are not that good as well, so I need to work on them

I guess I will need about 1 to 2 weeks in training if I need to get the Raven or Maelstrom
For the reason of disruption & dampeners I am hesitated to go with Maelstrom, but in general I like it as well, due to the many options I can do in damage type and speed
I do like the Raven because well, everyone is using that and missiles are not turrets I don't have to worry about tracking & disruption much like I do in other turret boats
McGeek Ellecon
Lambda Initiative
#5 - 2013-01-23 21:40:11 UTC
I had a sniper fit on my Apocalypse, I was really enjoying that and being able to pick kills from 100km range, but when I came across the dampeners I was literally crippled, they got me from 60km range and I could not do anything and lost the ship, if I know the performance of Maelstrom will be even better while being disrupted/dampened then I would definitely go with it
Flakey Foont
#6 - 2013-01-23 22:21:03 UTC
And these days, train the appropriate Sensor Compensation skills to offset the dampening a bit.
Richard Stallmanu Stallmania
State War Academy
Caldari State
#7 - 2013-01-24 00:22:56 UTC
Flakey Foont wrote:
And these days, train the appropriate Sensor Compensation skills to offset the dampening a bit.

You are literally the worst player at this game I have ever seen.

How does sensor strength affect targeting range?

Please elaborate?
Cap James Tkirk
TEMPLAR.
The Initiative.
#8 - 2013-01-24 00:23:19 UTC
Flakey Foont wrote:
And these days, train the appropriate Sensor Compensation skills to offset the dampening a bit.


Sensor Comps do nothing against damps only actual ECM.....
Ildryn
IDLE INTENTIONS
#9 - 2013-01-25 03:00:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Ildryn
Piugattuk wrote:
Raven atm because soooo many changes to AI and you'll get damped to death or disrupted to heii at least with missiles it has less effect when disrupted and you can fit sensor booster to get more out of missiles.


Don't listen to this guy. He is just mad that his 400k sp in gunnery isn't uber.

While missiles will get you through the mission. Gunnery is far superior.
Maelstrom 800mm autos and proper ammo types will allow you to do very good damage at a very nice range.

The shield skills are secondary when in a Maelstrom.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#10 - 2013-01-26 12:51:47 UTC
I assume you are talking about the assault vs guristas

from eve-survival
"Tip The warp gate is unlocked. It is not necessary to kill any of the ships in Pocket 1."
"Blitz
*Pocket 1: Warp through the gate without killing anything.
*Pocket 2: Aggro Group 3 (only) and eliminate ALL ships in Group 3. Warp out."

I find it to be a rather pleasurable mission even in an amarr boat. 2 battleships and some small stuff is all you have to kill, and with turrets the small stuff just vaporizes doesn't really even matter what damage type you shoot at it. that and I don't think anything in that group jams either.

Raven is probably the best low sp boat, but it is pretty much a dead end, your best upgrade will be the cnr, but then you will look back and say why the hell did I train so many missile skills when I could have been training gun skills!?

Maelstrom is a nice hull. not my favorite but it opens up to the machariel and vargur some of the best mission boats in game. 800mm ac range is a bit short I think, so I'd also buy a set of 1200mm artys for some of the longer ranged missions. the shield boost bonus makes the tank nice.

drake should be able to tank anything lv4 missions can throw at you. but the damage is weak. although then you can train into a tengu which is really good in some missions, but kinda meh in a bunch too. serpentis blockade can just orbit something and press f4 every now and then to reactivate the launcher group loaded with auto-targeting missiles.

lastly amarr boats are pretty nice especially when shooting em/therm weak enemies. sounds like you have had some hits/misses there.

having multiple ships to choose from is always a plus I think, having an apoc and a maelstrom would be pretty nice I'd think.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Kiteo Hatto
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2013-01-26 13:27:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Kiteo Hatto
OP, I have flown raven(although poorly), apoc, baddon, maelstrom and now flying paladin and vargur. I can tell you how my L4 experience began.

Raven: Flown this with meta 4 tank and that was before those OP shield boosters came out. This was the most "noob friendly" battleship. It was survivable as long as you fit specific hardeners and manage your cap, but dps was really poor for my liking and missiles were just....boring.

Apocalypse: I thought lasers were cool so I crosstrained and fell in LOVE with gunnery and armor tanking, instant damage and a beefy tank gave me pleasant surprise. I just kept maxing out gunnery support/cap/tank skills as well as Amarr BS. In the end I had a capstable fit that did respectable damage and range. Scorch is just amazing, especially on Apoc. Solid mission boat BUT you really need good "Amarr core" skills to fly this well. Now however it's slightly harder with Sansha/Blood raiders applying Ewar too much and drone AI "improvements".

Baddon: Its just a tankier/brawlier but with far less cap and range, really hard to fly without maxed skills. I don't recommend it at all.

I then moved to another system and the agent started giving me lots of angel missions(which I didn't want to decline) so I crosstrained to Minmatar and improved my shield tank(from the noob Raven days)

Maelstrom is a sexy looking ship and you should really use 800mm's, i tried both 1200s and 1400s but its just not as practical as you just overkill things. This ship really melts angel rats and its fun to fly due to actually having an AB on a Battleship hull for once! Also, you can meta4 fit it and still do pretty well(as in survive).
I HIGHLY recommend this ship and then Vargur(Mach if you prefer) and use them in Minmatar space against angels, they have the worst ewar(as in it's a complete joke) and they will always be within your gun's range. You can also fight all possible rats in this due to kin/exp/em/therm ammo!

Well, marauders V was a looooong skill train but Paladin/Vargur become complete mission eaters once you get it(hell, even 4 is fine). Think my Paladin has ~1200 something TURRET dps with a perma tank and scorch and Vargur has ~1300 TURRET something dps but with a burst tank. I say turret because my drone skills are just barely high enough to use 5 T2 drones.

You can always go for the shiny pirate faction BS's but they need 2 racial BS skills to be really effective and they are also damn expensive, not including the fittings.



Anyways, here's how my mission running began, hope it helps.

TLDR: Move to Minmatar space and get a Maelstrom and laugh at the Ewar. Fighting Sansha/Blood who track disrupt you is a royal pain. Sensor dampening from Serpentis/whatever the other one is also pretty brutal. ECM is alright, can always counter it, just not in a Golem.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#12 - 2013-01-26 21:44:50 UTC
the apoc has a stupidly big capacitor, I threw together a 2 lar setup and it worked pretty well with low sp, as sp gets up dropping a lar (and a bunch of cap mods) for more gank makes the ship that much nicer.

the baddon I had a megabeam setup, it had a lot of cap mods, but with lower skills I thought it worked well with the apoc.

lastly 2 racial bs is faster than maruaders 5, especially with all the skills you have to do to train marauders (that said most are a good thing to train at some point) but getting to a 4/4 nightmare or mach will be much nicer than waiting out bs 5 with a standard t1 hull. I'd just recommend getting used to all the missions you get with said t1 hull so you aren't likely to lose your shiny new ship.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#13 - 2013-01-27 00:06:28 UTC
the lack of posted apoc fitting makes it hard to advise, apoc shouldnt have any real issues in 90% of missions. however read up and you will find out if you can do it.

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
Pohbis
Neo T.E.C.H.
#14 - 2013-01-27 02:39:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Pohbis
If you are sure you want to focus on missions, go Raven -> Tengu.

The Raven is a decent low SP mission runner that will serve you okay while skilling for the Tengu.

Don't bother with the Shield Compensation skills, they are for passive shield tanks, which you wont be fitting.

Get Caldari BS to 4, tanking skills to T2 and keep Cruise and the missile support skills at 4. Then start focusing on the Tengu with Heavy Missile Specialization and Target Painter skills. You'll need Energy and Navigation skills to support perma running an AB and Shield Booster as well.

The HML Tengu is the most efficient all-round LVL 4 runner that requires a minimal amount of micro management.

If you are unsure if missions are what you'll focus this character on, or enjoy a bit of extra micro management, go Maelstrom -> Machariel.

Both require decent drone skills for frigates that get under your guns but the Machariel is a blast to fly. Its burst tank does require a bit more attention to triggers, thou it has the potential to outdo the Tengu if flown right.

If you want to go balls deep into missioning with 2 accounts, go for a Tengu/Machariel duo. You'll cruise through missions.
Ckra Trald
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2013-01-27 05:13:15 UTC
Just go for the trusty Raven. There is plenty of good fits and tons of people fly/flew it, so its easy to fly and learn it. Missles can select damage type so you are dealing solid damage to pretty much everything (even if it isn't the most exciting thing to fly). Then you can go to the CNR which is up there with the some of the best l4 ships. Don't go for SNI since its pretty much a Raven with padding, and if you can't run missions with a Raven, don't run them.

Or if you want to stick to gunnery, a Maelstrom is a excellent choice, solid dps and tank.

http://www.rusemen.com/ Join Tengoo xd
khamael III
New Rome corp.
#16 - 2013-01-27 16:56:20 UTC  |  Edited by: khamael III
good L4 mission runner (with these you cannot salvage in mission, so grab also a noctis if you are in the loot&salvage thing) could be

- active shield tanked navy dominix (sentry + railguns = DPS) is very cost-effective these days (cheap ship, cheap ammo and sentries do not consume ammo at all), but you really need good drones skills to get good results

- active shield tanked autocannon Machariel is hands down the fastest mission runner out there but it costs a fortune (and eats ammos like crazy) and requires quite intensive skills to be flown properly

- burst X-large shield tanked cruise navy raven (with a good AB to keep range) is cheap and easy to fly (you can change damage type easily), but missions take a bit longer to complete

If you perfer to salvage and loot during missions and if you plan Lvl4 mission to be your main cash cow, then ... an active shield tanked autocannon Vargur is your best choice, by far (takes forever for skills, but it's well worth).

PS: I forgot the real important part ... whatever ship you may choose, just settle in minmatar space and mission there for minmatar corps. Winmatar space really is carebears' heaven
khamael III
New Rome corp.
#17 - 2013-01-27 17:00:03 UTC
sry, double post
Caitlyn Tufy
Perkone
Caldari State
#18 - 2013-01-27 22:39:11 UTC
Ildryn wrote:
Piugattuk wrote:
Raven atm because soooo many changes to AI and you'll get damped to death or disrupted to heii at least with missiles it has less effect when disrupted and you can fit sensor booster to get more out of missiles.


Don't listen to this guy. He is just mad that his 400k sp in gunnery isn't uber.

While missiles will get you through the mission. Gunnery is far superior.
Maelstrom 800mm autos and proper ammo types will allow you to do very good damage at a very nice range.

The shield skills are secondary when in a Maelstrom.


While it's true that gunnery is often superior to missiles (especially when hitting the pesky frigates with BS sized weapons), he does have a point - it's not fun seeing 5-6 TDs land on your apoc and have the 70km range reduced to mere 15 km, especially now that the TD is bugged and sometimes still reduces the range even when it drops off the ship.

I'm not really sure you want a pulse laser ship in a Sansha mission with heavy TD right now and I doubt autocannons would fare any better. I could be wrong, though, as I've always preferred missile ships for various reasons. I do know my CNR is seeing a surge of renewed use in missions these days thanks to MJD :)
J'as Salarkin
Red Sky Morning
The Amarr Militia.
#19 - 2013-01-27 23:31:00 UTC
A question to all you mission experts (I have never done a lvl4 before, but have for various reasons become interested to at least try them out a bit):

Why do you all skip on armageddon? To me this ships seems extremely versatile, it can get equally good if not better then the other two amar battle ships if you plugg in a heavy cap booster (I have of course compared to heavy booster fits of the other two ships too).

If one gets an navy armageddon (in price not to far of the abaddon anyway) the 5 sentries help put out MORE damage than the abaddon! The armageddon has an extra lowslot an can thus tank equally well compared to the abaddon.

The apoc and navy apoc are more cap stable yes, but I personally do not see why amar ships should not use a booster, what else to do with all the extra cargo space anyway? It makes the ships that much better! The extra range is quite easy to catch up to with a tracking enhancer in the lows and one or two tracking computers in the meds. The navy apoc does seem interesting as it does get great range and decent dps (due to the extra low slot)... however the dps is still noticeably behind the other two.

To sum it up. WHY does none suggest the armageddon and ESPECIALLY the navy arageddon? Seems to be the best ship to me (you even have a spare high slot!)
J'as Salarkin
Red Sky Morning
The Amarr Militia.
#20 - 2013-01-29 01:55:06 UTC
I am still seriously interested in hearing an answer to my question. WHY does none suggest to use the armageddon (and especially the navy issue armageddon)?
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