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Promissory Note and Collateral Services
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Alex Grison
Grison Universal
#21 - 2013-01-25 19:39:42 UTC
Kazuma Gaterau wrote:
Pretty much the point of this service is to provide excellent documentation of loans and to exhibit the conditions the lender wishes for. I am not offering to be a debt collector. I am offering for a very small fee to establish an more professional form of accepting and documenting loans



Ok, the question is. How can anyone expect to collect 900,000,000 or whatever ammount from a permadocked throwaway alt.
Having documentation is useless unless you can reliably enforce the terms of the loan.

yes
Kazuma Gaterau
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2013-01-25 19:48:15 UTC
Well really there is nothing you can do if they don't play anymore on it. It's the same as owe $300,000 on a mortgage then declaring bankruptcy
You take the collateral.
My job is just create the documentation which specifies loan terms, and if you wish for more complexities such as prepayment or late payment penalties as well as creating a default option and what would specify default
That's why I'm charging practically nothing. Because my service outlines the ins and outs of the loan and specifies the powers of both parties.
Joshua Vaughn Lampen
Archer Investments Initiative
#23 - 2013-01-25 19:55:18 UTC
Kazuma Gaterau wrote:
Pretty much the point of this service is to provide excellent documentation of loans and to exhibit the conditions the lender wishes for. I am not offering to be a debt collector. I am offering for a very small fee to establish an more professional form of accepting and documenting loans


That's not really a service the community requires or wants. People will choose to invest with a particular person or loan ISK to that person based upon a range of factors, one of which is not usually how fancy their product is presented. You can see evidence for that all around the MD forums. Reasonably well presented IPO's / Loans / etc will often get someone to fill them so long as the OP wasn't huffing paint when they made the first post. There have been attempts in the past to make uniform documents but they've gone largely unused and are quickly forgotten by the community.
flakeys
Doomheim
#24 - 2013-01-25 19:56:21 UTC
You can't be serious ....... no come on tell me this is a joke .

We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
Kazuma Gaterau
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2013-01-25 20:02:41 UTC
Whatever if you guys don't want a detailed loan then fine that's your call
But if someone wants to have their loans better documented then that is where I come in
Tul Breetai
Impromptu Asset Requisition
#26 - 2013-01-25 20:03:35 UTC
I can't believe this guy isn't trolling...

There's nothing worse than an EVE player, generally considered to be top of the food chain in the MMO world, that cannot smacktalk with wit and coherency.
Kazuma Gaterau
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2013-01-25 20:26:26 UTC
Ugh fine if nobody will really get any decent use out of this service then I'll just let it die :/
Alex Grison
Grison Universal
#28 - 2013-01-25 20:28:06 UTC
Kazuma Gaterau wrote:
Ugh fine if nobody will really get any decent use out of this service then I'll just let it die :/


Welcome to MD

yes
Kazuma Gaterau
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2013-01-25 20:32:11 UTC
Me like.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#30 - 2013-01-25 23:57:28 UTC
Kazuma Gaterau wrote:
Ugh fine if nobody will really get any decent use out of this service then I'll just let it die :/


I suggest you google for "eve online market discussion" plus "collateral" and then "collateralized loans" and why not, "3rd party service"

You'll see why you are not being taken seriously.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#31 - 2013-01-26 04:33:08 UTC
I, for one, find this service to be a very valuable idea.

Please tell me more about how I will pay you to fill out a super simple (but fancy looking) form.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Jerry T Pepridge
Meta Game Analysis and Investment INC.
#32 - 2013-01-26 06:34:22 UTC
Kazuma Gaterau wrote:
Hey guys,

I have an idea, and will be executing this, line of service to assist those who will be Lending money in loan agreements.
I work with Real Estate out of pod, and feel that my services can be of use in the lending of ISK in the EVE Universe.

My goal is to be a servicer to create Promissory Notes and Collateral Agreement documents for Lenders to use as an official binding document in the EVE Universe which outlines the following

  • Payment Due Date
  • Interest Due
  • Penalties (Including an Increased Interest Amount should the Payment Date be missed)
  • Rights of the Borrower
  • Rights of the Lender
  • Debt Collection Fees/Services
  • Default and Collateral


My fee would be simple and small which would be 0.1% of the principal amount of the loan.
I.E 20,000,000 ISK loan = 20,000 ISK to create and issue the document.

This document would be given to the Lender. The Lender can then EVE MAIL the legally binding document to the borrower.
To Agree to the Conditions and execute the transaction the borrower will reply with "“I, ____ acknowledge and agree to the terms and conditions held within this note, in its entirety, of my own free will.”"

Once they respond with that the document is then considered e-signed and in effect. The Loan Transaction is then executed.

If you guys are interested you can EVE-Mail me in game, or message me on the forum.
Please give your opinions on this in this post as well if you wish (I am prepared to get slaughtered :P)


better go ahead and make a bunch of pre-made forms for 20b.

Claire Coffee wrote:
Alex Grison wrote:
I don't do loans/stock/etc

Too poor? Lol

As I said previously. It's meant to make shiny loans and bonds more shiny.
If people take time to structure their loans and payback with more than "Give me 100 and I'll return 150 on monday" then they may like this additional "attorney" stuff.
As to price-rate on this stuff, I'd say make a fixed price. And for a starter, make it free for people to get a hang of it.
Don't make it free for Alex though, he doesn't do loans/stocks/etc. You know, he's a vending machine Lol


looking forward to posting in your upcoming bond thread. the coffee gimmick + your avatar is a good combo.

@JerryTPepridge
Vera Algaert
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#33 - 2013-01-26 09:11:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Vera Algaert
Joshua Vaughn Lampen wrote:
There have been attempts in the past to make uniform documents but they've gone largely unused and are quickly forgotten by the community.

Right, let's just ignore the dozens of IPOs that used Hexxx's template... nobody remembers him anyways.

I concede that you are the living proof that people will invest in anything as long as you use enough buzzwords and ~never stop posting~ and understand that as such you are afraid of some template taking away your competitive advantage.

The value of a good template is that it improves offerings by focusing everyone's attention on the content instead of the presentation - it makes the business manager reflect "what exactly is my business plan?", "how did I arrive at this loan size?", "what can I do to mitigate risks?", ... and offers concise information to the potential investors (without requiring them to sift through piles of buzzword-laden bullshit).

It's easy to be vague when you are writing a freestyle wall-of-text. It's hard to evade answers without being glaringly obvious when the questions are concise and half a dozen previous business managers have already answered them (setting clear expectations to the degree of detail that is expected of you).

People stopped using Hexxx's template as (a) MD migrated away from share offerings towards fixed-rate loans, (b) they realized that it makes their "I need as much ISK as I can get to do station trading. I won't give up my ~business secrets~." offerings look incredibly poor as it is built around the assumption that there is an actual business plan to speak of and (c) MD died.

.
Arronicus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#34 - 2013-01-26 09:46:28 UTC
I would just like to take this opportunity to point out that I will sketch (In MS paint) a drawing of both individuals involved in a loan for a paltry (0.1% of the loaned value, per month) sum. Should the loan default, the sketch may be used to help with the recovering of overdue interest, or funds.

While this should be seen as the blatant satire it is, it's just as useful as what the OP is offering...
Joshua Vaughn Lampen
Archer Investments Initiative
#35 - 2013-01-26 13:31:58 UTC
Vera Algaert wrote:
Joshua Vaughn Lampen wrote:
There have been attempts in the past to make uniform documents but they've gone largely unused and are quickly forgotten by the community.

Right, let's just ignore the dozens of IPOs that used Hexxx's template... nobody remembers him anyways.

I concede that you are the living proof that people will invest in anything as long as you use enough buzzwords and ~never stop posting~ and understand that as such you are afraid of some template taking away your competitive advantage.

The value of a good template is that it improves offerings by focusing everyone's attention on the content instead of the presentation - it makes the business manager reflect "what exactly is my business plan?", "how did I arrive at this loan size?", "what can I do to mitigate risks?", ... and offers concise information to the potential investors (without requiring them to sift through piles of buzzword-laden bullshit).

It's easy to be vague when you are writing a freestyle wall-of-text. It's hard to evade answers without being glaringly obvious when the questions are concise and half a dozen previous business managers have already answered them (setting clear expectations to the degree of detail that is expected of you).

People stopped using Hexxx's template as (a) MD migrated away from share offerings towards fixed-rate loans, (b) they realized that it makes their "I need as much ISK as I can get to do station trading. I won't give up my ~business secrets~." offerings look incredibly poor as it is built around the assumption that there is an actual business plan to speak of and (c) MD died.


Yes Hexxx's template was there so long as its form was deemed useful by the community but in terms of the number of total loans/ipo's etc that used it as its guiding structure yeah still a drop in the bucket. People will latch on to whatever they think will give them an edge and if its a form they'll use it. Form and structure doesn't inherently equal substance. In fact without it you can see who actually puts time into their ideas. Oh and yes I have so many investors because of my copious amount of buzzwords instead of detailed descriptions of pretty much each of my activities aside from what I do in the marketplace. Except for those investors who have my API's and can fill in the blanks in those areas. MD is perfectly content without a general form or structure for things at this point. People just want an API and a basic idea of when they'll get paid. After that they don't look too hard.
Vera Algaert
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#36 - 2013-01-26 17:07:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Vera Algaert
Joshua Vaughn Lampen wrote:
People just want an API and a basic idea of when they'll get paid. After that they don't look too hard.

Welcome to Spring 2008.

Back then there was an actual MD community which enabled one frequent investor to conduct API checks on offerings he was interested in and share his findings with other potential investors (who would trust him due to his standing in the MD community and due to him putting his money where his mouth was).

Eventually that guy even began doing API checks for investment opportunities he had no personal interest in.

A while later a second guy started doing API checks bringing the methods he had learned when vetting potential recruits for pirate corporations to the table.

Around that point doing API checks was acknowledged as a sort of miniprofession and people looking to take out a loan often contacted a trusted community member to do an API check - even before they posted their thread on MD.
As those individuals accrued experience (with the pecularities of the API and with the ways in which people might try to fool the casual observer) and improved their own workflows API checks became a lot more thorough.

Then a crazy Italian came out of nowhere, declared war on the "MD elite" and the typical findings report of an API check grew from 2-3 paragraphs into 2-3 full-length posts. The other two guys went inactive.

A veritable smear campaign (which I happily took part in Blink) followed and achieved to cast significant doubt on the perception of API checks - what's the value of looking at the past when it can't predict the future and when almost all defaults are due to scams, not to business failure? What do API checks offer other than a false sense of security?

For some time the rule of business in MD seemed to be "collateral or gtfo"

... until some investors started asking for API keys and posted a paragraph or two about their findings.

tl;dr we all know how this will end ("API checks enable scams because foolish investors blindly trust their thumb up/thumb down results. Collateral or GTFO."), so why bother reinventing a wheel that is broken by design.

.
Diesel Phumes
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#37 - 2013-01-28 04:46:18 UTC
I'd like to add a few of my own words to this thread:

Asymmetrical information
Adverse selection
Risk aversion
Beta Values
Voice conference (Personally, I think a voice chat with someone can provide just as much if not more info than an API key)

Put those 5 together and I think you can split the percentages and $$profit$$
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