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New NPC AI, how about no?

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L0rdF1end
Threat Contained
The Initiative.
#461 - 2013-01-25 10:46:20 UTC  |  Edited by: L0rdF1end
10 Years living with the previous AI mechanics means that you grew accustomned to the way in which rats work.
You grow your skills to fly the ships to complete a certain task.
This growth in skills is to allow you to run higher end missions/plexes.
The change now forces you to rethink fittings and now the ability to do what once was possible in some respects is gone.

There was nothing wrong with AI for ten years.
If it was such a big deal why not make the changes earlier within the life of Eve.

It basically boils down to, for me personally, not having as much fun as I did pre Retribution.
Why would you want to take fun away from a game?
Turelus
Utassi Security
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#462 - 2013-01-25 11:02:25 UTC
Lyndsey Love wrote:

Also my tactic was to run lvl 4 with two accounts, but is it possible now, when NPC's switch targets? Can one ship be the tank and other the damage dealer or this thing is messed up too?


No, you can't have a Tank and DPS role in missions, anomalies or complexes any more.
Where's other games offer the "tank" the skills needed to pull the aggression of the NPC's there is nothing like that in EVE.

You're best with two good tanks and average DPS so whoever takes agro they can tank long enough for another switch in aggression or enough NPCs to be killed to lower incoming DPS.



As for the changes, meh I have just given up hope now.
It seems CCP has this grand vision for the future of PVE but I don't see that happening for a long time yet. Could you imagine how many tears there would be if there was a patch to fix PVE and not POS, SOV and all the other flavour of the month complaint threads in GD?

PVE needs work, EVERYONE agrees on that. The reason I left EVE before and one of my biggest complains I have always had about CCP's development is that it seems in CCP's eyes CCP knows best.
I thought that this had changed with Crucible and they were starting to realise listening to what their player base wants is the way forward.

This is the groups of PVE players as I see it.

PVE Fun - Those that log into EVE purely to run PVE content for fun, they look for enjoyment and casual play without stress
PVE ISK - Those that want to be doing more PVP than PVE but need to fund their PVP with quick simple income.
PVE Challenge - Those looking for that on the edge of their seats gameplay without needing to PVP.

CCP seems to think that making everything come under "PVE Challenge" is what the PVE players want. I have time and time again seen "we want our players to have choices" and "choices matter" coming from members of CCP when they're defending changes they make to the game.
However it seems that when it comes to the content we have access too choice doesn't matter and we should all be playing the way they want.
I will again say this; If CCP want this harder PVE and closer to players AI/Combat then let's bring in a new type of mission/anomaly/complex, there is nothing wrong with tweaking the current systems but don't force PVP style PVE on players who obviously are not looking for PVP style gameplay.

/endrant

Turelus CEO Utassi Security
Lyndsey Love
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#463 - 2013-01-25 11:24:51 UTC
Turelus wrote:
Lyndsey Love wrote:

Also my tactic was to run lvl 4 with two accounts, but is it possible now, when NPC's switch targets? Can one ship be the tank and other the damage dealer or this thing is messed up too?


No, you can't have a Tank and DPS role in missions, anomalies or complexes any more.
Where's other games offer the "tank" the skills needed to pull the aggression of the NPC's there is nothing like that in EVE.

You're best with two good tanks and average DPS so whoever takes agro they can tank long enough for another switch in aggression or enough NPCs to be killed to lower incoming DPS.



As for the changes, meh I have just given up hope now.
It seems CCP has this grand vision for the future of PVE but I don't see that happening for a long time yet. Could you imagine how many tears there would be if there was a patch to fix PVE and not POS, SOV and all the other flavour of the month complaint threads in GD?

PVE needs work, EVERYONE agrees on that. The reason I left EVE before and one of my biggest complains I have always had about CCP's development is that it seems in CCP's eyes CCP knows best.
I thought that this had changed with Crucible and they were starting to realise listening to what their player base wants is the way forward.

This is the groups of PVE players as I see it.

PVE Fun - Those that log into EVE purely to run PVE content for fun, they look for enjoyment and casual play without stress
PVE ISK - Those that want to be doing more PVP than PVE but need to fund their PVP with quick simple income.
PVE Challenge - Those looking for that on the edge of their seats gameplay without needing to PVP.

CCP seems to think that making everything come under "PVE Challenge" is what the PVE players want. I have time and time again seen "we want our players to have choices" and "choices matter" coming from members of CCP when they're defending changes they make to the game.
However it seems that when it comes to the content we have access too choice doesn't matter and we should all be playing the way they want.
I will again say this; If CCP want this harder PVE and closer to players AI/Combat then let's bring in a new type of mission/anomaly/complex, there is nothing wrong with tweaking the current systems but don't force PVP style PVE on players who obviously are not looking for PVP style gameplay.

/endrant


I don't think this new PVE is harder than the old. It is same easy, but makes me more nervous. Waiting ages to have a chance to lock a ship between the permajam. Waiting for eating up an NPC ship, etc. Nothing hard, just boring. I dont mind if CCP has a vision and they make it, the problem here is they haven't runned missions after and before, and they made a change without playing the game imo. Also in the old times, I had a tank ship who get the aggro, and a dps ship who helped him. It was boring and long, but it was somehow enjoyable. I can't imagine running lvl 4 missions with one account, even if it has a Marauder. It's just too boring. Mining is more interesting and makes more money. Also the other problem: why I make myself pain with lvl 4 missions if i just jump my Mackinaw and mining half-afk for 8 mill ISK / 15 min. And I don't have to salvage and sell crap loot. Ah, the loot is crap too, lol.
Caldari Citizen20121206
Great Eastern
#464 - 2013-01-25 11:36:11 UTC
Lyndsey Love wrote:
To be honest I tried the new NPC AI, because I have done lvl 4's long time ago. And it's awful. They ate all my drones in a few mins, and permajammed. So mission running was a boring **** in the old days, and now, it is same boring but more ****. Nice work CCP!

Also my tactic was to run lvl 4 with two accounts, but is it possible now, when NPC's switch targets? Can one ship be the tank and other the damage dealer or this thing is messed up too?




Its messed up, you need to tank all your ships in order to survive. This is the most annoying part of the new npc ai i think. Now I am considering selling numerous pilots of mine, because in the new system i cant really use them effectively. Ive got 4 active accounts, and im planning to reduce to 2 only. One is my main account and the other is a pvp alt for scouting and faclon/links etc. I think ccp is loosing more out of this than me.
disturbed Rin
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#465 - 2013-01-25 15:17:34 UTC
well to keep on topic , i noticed since today that even hob's aren't safe anymoer

just flying normal missions with them yesterday was fine but since today: the moment i attack 1 frig with drones the all aggro on drones!
Bedlin
Caldari Organizational Logistics Department
#466 - 2013-01-25 16:36:30 UTC
disturbed Rin wrote:
well to keep on topic , i noticed since today that even hob's aren't safe anymoer

just flying normal missions with them yesterday was fine but since today: the moment i attack 1 frig with drones the all aggro on drones!


I just want to point out from earlier in this thread and from personal observation it appears that the only drones we can use that have any hope of survival (and thus not being a net loss of money) are the Hobgoblin light drones. Even they are in danger if you aren't killing off frigs as fast as you can and get lucky. So....

Where's the promised loot drops for Rogue Drones?    --DeMichael Crimson
Mund Richard
#467 - 2013-01-25 17:52:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Mund Richard
Bedlin wrote:
disturbed Rin wrote:
well to keep on topic , i noticed since today that even hob's aren't safe anymoer

just flying normal missions with them yesterday was fine but since today: the moment i attack 1 frig with drones the all aggro on drones!
I just want to point out from earlier in this thread and from personal observation it appears that the only drones we can use that have any hope of survival (and thus not being a net loss of money) are the Hobgoblin light drones. Even they are in danger if you aren't killing off frigs as fast as you can and get lucky. So....

I almost laughed when there was only one hostile (angel) frigate when I released my 5 T2 (warrior) drones, and one was in hull in my dronebay by the time that one frig died.

I almost laughed.

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
Shadowschild
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#468 - 2013-01-25 19:21:35 UTC
The new AI change pretty much kills off t2 heavy drones in favor of sentries. I would like my T2 heavy skill points refunded please.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#469 - 2013-01-25 19:28:16 UTC
L0rdF1end wrote:
10 Years living with the previous AI mechanics means that you grew accustomned to the way in which rats work.
You grow your skills to fly the ships to complete a certain task.
This growth in skills is to allow you to run higher end missions/plexes.
The change now forces you to rethink fittings and now the ability to do what once was possible in some respects is gone.

There was nothing wrong with AI for ten years.
If it was such a big deal why not make the changes earlier within the life of Eve.

It basically boils down to, for me personally, not having as much fun as I did pre Retribution.
Why would you want to take fun away from a game?


You have to analyze who "wins" with this nerf of PvE income, particularly high sec mission income.
If you consider variable income and static income, the people that hold static income benefit if variable income is slashed, as the static holders will now control a larger slice of the total income pie.

So who controls a static income, something that can be harvested on an ongoing basis, immune to any changes that the devs have made?
Then ask yourself, from where do CCP pluck many many devs and game designers, like the ones responsible for these changes?
Xython
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#470 - 2013-01-26 03:27:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Xython
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
People accomplishing missions in low-security or null-security space should not be at a disadvantage when engaged by other players because they have ship fittings tailored to fight NPCs. Ideally, battling NPCs should teach players how PvP works, how to defend and be better prepared about it should they choose to move into dangerous areas.


You lost me at "people running missions in null-security space," a statement about as clueless as CCP Omen explaining that he expected PVP Corps to let random neuts use their POCOs because, hey, they might make a few isk (at the risk of letting cyno ships run around free for the 5 seconds it takes the average Nullsec pilot to realize what a terribad idea that is).

No one missions in Nullsec, when you can go AFK mission in highsec for a MUCH higher risk/reward, or farm Faction Warfare stuff on a disposable alt for an even BIGGER risk/reward.

This is especially true given that the only missions in null are in NPC space, which piloting a ship in is pure suicide. Maybe, MAYBE, updating the PVE AI so that PVE, especially deep null PVE, is more akin to PVP will help, but unless you take a long hard look at the risk/reward of Missions in Null -- i.e., buff Null Missions, Nerf Highsec Missions, etc -- then it's a fool's errand.

You are treating symptoms. Try looking at the disease instead.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#471 - 2013-01-26 08:05:35 UTC
L0rdF1end wrote:
10 Years living with the previous AI mechanics means that you grew accustomned to the way in which rats work.
You grow your skills to fly the ships to complete a certain task.
This growth in skills is to allow you to run higher end missions/plexes.
The change now forces you to rethink fittings and now the ability to do what once was possible in some respects is gone.

There was nothing wrong with AI for ten years.
If it was such a big deal why not make the changes earlier within the life of Eve.

It basically boils down to, for me personally, not having as much fun as I did pre Retribution.
Why would you want to take fun away from a game?


the only change worth noting is you can't easily afk missions with droneboats now. although it also sounds like a few sansha encounters are a complete pain in the ass, but I haven't run any of them.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Caldari Citizen20121206
Great Eastern
#472 - 2013-01-26 09:10:43 UTC
Xython wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
People accomplishing missions in low-security or null-security space should not be at a disadvantage when engaged by other players because they have ship fittings tailored to fight NPCs. Ideally, battling NPCs should teach players how PvP works, how to defend and be better prepared about it should they choose to move into dangerous areas.


You lost me at "people running missions in null-security space," a statement about as clueless as CCP Omen explaining that he expected PVP Corps to let random neuts use their POCOs because, hey, they might make a few isk (at the risk of letting cyno ships run around free for the 5 seconds it takes the average Nullsec pilot to realize what a terribad idea that is).

No one missions in Nullsec, when you can go AFK mission in highsec for a MUCH higher risk/reward, or farm Faction Warfare stuff on a disposable alt for an even BIGGER risk/reward.

This is especially true given that the only missions in null are in NPC space, which piloting a ship in is pure suicide. Maybe, MAYBE, updating the PVE AI so that PVE, especially deep null PVE, is more akin to PVP will help, but unless you take a long hard look at the risk/reward of Missions in Null -- i.e., buff Null Missions, Nerf Highsec Missions, etc -- then it's a fool's errand.

You are treating symptoms. Try looking at the disease instead.




clearly you dont know nul sec then, a lot of ppl missions in null sec. And its much more profitable than any of high sec plus in the proper alliance/corp its even safer than high sec.
Vas Eldryn
#473 - 2013-01-26 09:52:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Vas Eldryn
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
L0rdF1end wrote:
10 Years living with the previous AI mechanics means that you grew accustomned to the way in which rats work.
You grow your skills to fly the ships to complete a certain task.
This growth in skills is to allow you to run higher end missions/plexes.
The change now forces you to rethink fittings and now the ability to do what once was possible in some respects is gone.

There was nothing wrong with AI for ten years.
If it was such a big deal why not make the changes earlier within the life of Eve.

It basically boils down to, for me personally, not having as much fun as I did pre Retribution.
Why would you want to take fun away from a game?


the only change worth noting is you can't easily afk missions with droneboats now. although it also sounds like a few sansha encounters are a complete pain in the ass, but I haven't run any of them.


so all droneboats should be treated like afk mission runners? let the one bad apple spoil the bunch?

edit: i thought eve was behind afk gaming... take afk stealth camping in null (not complaining about it i plan to use it)
khamael III
New Rome corp.
#474 - 2013-01-26 11:12:22 UTC  |  Edited by: khamael III
I've been runngin lvl 4 mission in a navy dominix for quite a while, and still i'm doing.

My impression is that, if you :
- have good drones skills
- fit the ship to use sentries the way they shoud be used (having them snipe from afar and standing right where they are)
- do not use heavy drones
- use lights/med dornes only to finish off the last (fast) figates buzzing around you at the end of the mission
- actually are at the computer
almost nothing changed except that, from time to time, you have to scoop sentries and relaunch them a couple of seconds later.

At first I was concerned about this new AI, but now - after have it tested in some missions - It seems to me that the problem is being highly ovverrated, at least as far as missions are concerned.
Deucaliona
Penumbra Institute
#475 - 2013-01-26 11:36:33 UTC
khamael III wrote:
I've been runngin lvl 4 mission in a navy dominix for quite a while, and still i'm doing.

My impression is that, if you :
- have good drones skills
- fit the ship to use sentries the way they shoud be used (having them snipe from afar and standing right where they are)
- do not use heavy drones
- use lights/med dornes only to finish off the last (fast) figates buzzing around you at the end of the mission
- actually are at the computer
almost nothing changed except that, from time to time, you have to scoop sentries and relaunch them a couple of seconds later.

At first I was concerned about this new AI, but now - after have it tested in some missions - It seems to me that the problem is being highly ovverrated, at least as far as missions are concerned.


Using only sentry drones you won't see much of a problem.
Liber Franci
HOAX Brotherhood
#476 - 2013-01-26 12:38:29 UTC
Sorry, but what about leaving the game?

I mean, I have played for 3 years, have some fun, do incursions, high and null sec always with people and mostly with newbs.

I don't like this patch, but CCP make a choice. I will not complain, just leave.

U know the truth : CCP ONLY listen to some people : the "funny" guys from null sec.It will continue.
Mund Richard
#477 - 2013-01-26 16:04:58 UTC
khamael III wrote:
At first I was concerned about this new AI, but now - after have it tested in some missions - It seems to me that the problem is being highly ovverrated, at least as far as missions are concerned.

Mediums and Heavies are kinda broken for PvE.

Lights work, but when just *one* 30k hostile webifier frig made me recall a 450k T2 drone because it was dying to it even in a 1v5, what if there would have been 5 of the enemy as well (or more...), my drone webbed+scrammed, and a bit further away?
Sniping frigs spawning 15km away with large railguns or cruise missiles (heck even bouncers) ain't really a viable option.

Only thing I can do, is wait until they orbit me, and play the release-recall game, as it breaks the AI sooner or later.
...
Until it gets fixed.

Then it's sacrificing Exotic Dancer, Female to the God of RNG, so that the AI doesn't decide to swap when my light drones are out, only when my sentries.

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
Turelus
Utassi Security
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#478 - 2013-01-26 18:13:10 UTC
Xython wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
People accomplishing missions in low-security or null-security space should not be at a disadvantage when engaged by other players because they have ship fittings tailored to fight NPCs. Ideally, battling NPCs should teach players how PvP works, how to defend and be better prepared about it should they choose to move into dangerous areas.


You lost me at "people running missions in null-security space," a statement about as clueless as CCP Omen explaining that he expected PVP Corps to let random neuts use their POCOs because, hey, they might make a few isk (at the risk of letting cyno ships run around free for the 5 seconds it takes the average Nullsec pilot to realize what a terribad idea that is).

No one missions in Nullsec, when you can go AFK mission in highsec for a MUCH higher risk/reward, or farm Faction Warfare stuff on a disposable alt for an even BIGGER risk/reward.

This is especially true given that the only missions in null are in NPC space, which piloting a ship in is pure suicide. Maybe, MAYBE, updating the PVE AI so that PVE, especially deep null PVE, is more akin to PVP will help, but unless you take a long hard look at the risk/reward of Missions in Null -- i.e., buff Null Missions, Nerf Highsec Missions, etc -- then it's a fool's errand.

You are treating symptoms. Try looking at the disease instead.


Oh no people mission in NullSec, but it's normally alts of the powerblocks that hold the region the NPC NullSec is in.
That way they can get stacks of LP for pirate goods and not harm the standings on their mains.

There are some that run missions out there alone but it's not as many as elsewhere. Honestly NullSec missions are a joke because most people who want to run them can't even get to them.
It's long been an issue that those who want to RP pirates or work for the outlaw factions are screwed in their mission running, there needs to be Pirate missions in lowsec so people who are pirates can mission for ISK if they want and kill CONCORD NPCs to feel like they're still a pirate.

Turelus CEO Utassi Security
Annunaki soldier
Perkone
Caldari State
#479 - 2013-01-26 18:36:14 UTC
this game need strictly a pve part to exist. I dont see whats wrong with that. I didnt see it when you tryed to fool around someone on high sec to flip cans or anything so you could engage. There where people that have that as fun. Also what people said that there are many on that game that they need out of stress red crosses to shoot then return to real life is also good to exist.

As npc mission areas are a joke .. ofc they are. I support the move them to low sec and not just 1 small area so actually people cant block and have their alts only to farm .

as for the 0.0 / high sec pve contect both communities have their reason to be there. 0.0 aint that much of a danger if you actually pay attention at all. Still is more dangerous that high sec and that need to be rewarded more , but when you see it on the big coallitions space then ... meh. You could be alone ratting for weeks

Ride hard, live with passion 
Buzzmong
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#480 - 2013-01-26 19:55:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Buzzmong
I've recently taken to doing some level 4's again, and I have to say, I feel really sorry for the people who rely on drones to do the work.

Christ on a bike, anything more than one elite frigate and your light drones are toast. Even one elite frigate is a serious threat to 5x Hob II's.

It was one thing when the NPC's had all their ewar changed, as despite what CCP have said in patchnotes, Guristas can still permajam you and Serpentis do effectively the same thing by smacking you with multiple RSD's from a horrendous distance, but it's completely uncalled for to remove the sole defence you had against that as a drone user.

It's no fun when a bunch of NPC's ewar you from 50k+ out, and you can do nothing (against ECM, against RSD you have to wait until you are in range AND until you finish your one minute+ lock cycles), it's even less fun when your only counter is taken away.

I have to say that even while I agree with CCP's intentions of bringing PVE and PVP closer together, they've really dropped the ball on this one.

As it stands now, about the only tool that's useful is missiles, and even using FoF's to get around the various permajam/RSD'ing NPC's, it's not exactly anything but incredibly boring and frustrating.