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Pay to win? Game Breaking?

Author
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#101 - 2013-01-26 01:26:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Mallak Azaria
Tul Breetai wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Tul Breetai wrote:
Are you honestly saying that is not an advantage expressly provided by my rl money?


Yes because those advantages can be gained using isk instead. That's the beauty of the PLEX system.


... yes, and? I'm not complaining about it, but you have to admit I and many others wouldn't have the isk to gain those benefits as soon, or ever. I have more money than time, so I pay for advantages over others aka I pay-to-win, in the eve sense. That way I can enjoy my game. Maybe I'm not taking this omgserious enough?


You aren't getting an advantage over anyone else though. You paid real money to save time, that doesn't give you an advantage.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.

Tul Breetai
Impromptu Asset Requisition
#102 - 2013-01-26 01:39:02 UTC
Mag's wrote:
If that wasn't the question you wanted answering, then why ask it? Your poor use of the English language, is not my concern. I answered your question honestly. Don't try and act all superior now, simply because that line of argument failed.

Paying for more accounts, doesn't mean Pay2Win. I fly with corp mates. Does this mean our corp is Pay2Win, over a one man corp? No and it's a ridiculous argument to make. So is having ISK early.

I already made my point regarding Pay2Win. 57


I'm a native English speaker, demonstrate how my reaction to your attempted manipulation is evidence I am using English poorly. I recommend googling rhetoric. My argument did not fail, also demonstrate with a properly constructed argument of your own how it did. Your new argument is irrelevant: Getting corpmates to fly with requires playing that aspect of the game, the social aspect. I can circumvent that entirely by just buying corpmates for myself. I can circumvent the financial aspects of the game by just buying plex in rl. I can circumvent many aspects of the game, which is fine, but I still get the rewards because I pay rl money for them. MY argument is that pay-to-win is paying for advantages. Advantages that may be otherwise impossible under the circumstances (i.e. immediate advantages that normally take time, cooperation, playing the game, etc.), but most certainly advantages that require playing the game before getting. I am paying for advantages in EVE, but it lets me play as if I invested more time than I've had to invest in the game. Oh well.


RubyPorto wrote:


Paying in game currency for in game advantages over others is called normal game mechanics in every video game ever that has an in game currency.


Yes. That is precisely what you shouldn't respond to "paying RL money for advantages is pay-to-win" with.

There's nothing worse than an EVE player, generally considered to be top of the food chain in the MMO world, that cannot smacktalk with wit and coherency.

Tul Breetai
Impromptu Asset Requisition
#103 - 2013-01-26 01:44:25 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:


You aren't getting an advantage over anyone else though. You paid real money to save time, that doesn't give you an advantage.


MY mistake. I didn't realize having 3 accounts isn't an advantage over my roommate who has neither time nor money to maintain more than one, ever. This isn't really stimulating anymore.

There's nothing worse than an EVE player, generally considered to be top of the food chain in the MMO world, that cannot smacktalk with wit and coherency.

RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#104 - 2013-01-26 01:46:26 UTC
Tul Breetai wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:


Paying in game currency for in game advantages over others is called normal game mechanics in every video game ever that has an in game currency.


Yes. That is precisely what you shouldn't respond to "paying RL money for advantages is pay-to-win" with.


Umm, what?

Paying Real Life money for In game advantages is the definition of Pay to Win.

PLEX is not that. You are paying real life money for game-time.

Selling PLEX is "Pay-to-have-someone-else-grind-for-you." That is all that it does. Nothing is created out of thin air (even the PLEX is only an in game representation of game-time purchased with cash, identical to all other game time which is purchased with cash), and no elements of the normal acquisition of in-game assets is skipped.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#105 - 2013-01-26 01:47:46 UTC
Tul Breetai wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:


You aren't getting an advantage over anyone else though. You paid real money to save time, that doesn't give you an advantage.


MY mistake. I didn't realize having 3 accounts isn't an advantage over my roommate who has neither time nor money to maintain more than one, ever. This isn't really stimulating anymore.


Good thing your roommate needs do neither to gain an advantage over you. He just needs to get 2 friends.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

Tul Breetai
Impromptu Asset Requisition
#106 - 2013-01-26 01:57:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Tul Breetai
RubyPorto wrote:
Tul Breetai wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:


Paying in game currency for in game advantages over others is called normal game mechanics in every video game ever that has an in game currency.


Yes. That is precisely what you shouldn't respond to "paying RL money for advantages is pay-to-win" with.


Umm, what?

Paying Real Life money for In game advantages is the definition of Pay to Win.

PLEX is not that. You are paying real life money for game-time.

Selling PLEX is "Pay-to-have-someone-else-grind-for-you." That is all that it does. Nothing is created out of thin air (even the PLEX is only an in game representation of game-time purchased with cash, identical to all other game time which is purchased with cash), and no elements of the normal acquisition of in-game assets is skipped.



Yeah. You're right, except when I use it simply to get money in-game. But that fits the definition you just threw at me, and the rest of what you said we're in agreement on, and always have been, and I'm left wondering where the misunderstanding came from.


RubyPorto wrote:


Good thing your roommate needs do neither to gain an advantage over you. He just needs to get 2 friends.


Yes. In-game, via in-game means, with time and possibly knowledge, responsibilties, personality, and assets invested. And I hope he can trust them as much as I can trust my alts, though they do have a mind of their own sometimes... P

There's nothing worse than an EVE player, generally considered to be top of the food chain in the MMO world, that cannot smacktalk with wit and coherency.

Mag's
Azn Empire
#107 - 2013-01-26 02:00:02 UTC
Tul Breetai wrote:
Mag's wrote:
If that wasn't the question you wanted answering, then why ask it? Your poor use of the English language, is not my concern. I answered your question honestly. Don't try and act all superior now, simply because that line of argument failed.

Paying for more accounts, doesn't mean Pay2Win. I fly with corp mates. Does this mean our corp is Pay2Win, over a one man corp? No and it's a ridiculous argument to make. So is having ISK early.

I already made my point regarding Pay2Win. 57


I'm a native English speaker, demonstrate how my reaction to your attempted manipulation is evidence I am using English poorly. I recommend googling rhetoric. My argument did not fail, also demonstrate with a properly constructed argument of your own how it did. Your new argument is irrelevant: Getting corpmates to fly with requires playing that aspect of the game, the social aspect. I can circumvent that entirely by just buying corpmates for myself. I can circumvent the financial aspects of the game by just buying plex in rl. I can circumvent many aspects of the game, which is fine, but I still get the rewards because I pay rl money for them. MY argument is that pay-to-win is paying for advantages. Advantages that may be otherwise impossible under the circumstances (i.e. immediate advantages that normally take time, cooperation, playing the game, etc.), but most certainly advantages that require playing the game before getting. I am paying for advantages in EVE, but it lets me play as if I invested more time than I've had to invest in the game. Oh well.
Paragraphs, are your friends.

Attempted manipulation? You mean answering the question, you posed? Which turns out not to be the question, you wanted answering? You mean that poor use of English? I recommend asking the correct question first, although I'm not sure Google will help you in that regard.

Also, I said that argument was ridiculous, just as yours was.
As an English native speaker, your reading and comprehension leaves a lot to be desired. What?

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#108 - 2013-01-26 02:06:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Mallak Azaria
Tul Breetai wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:


Good thing your roommate needs do neither to gain an advantage over you. He just needs to get 2 friends.


Yes. In-game, via in-game means, with time and possibly knowledge, responsibilties, personality, and assets invested. And I hope he can trust them as much as I can trust my alts, though they do have a mind of their own sometimes... P


The underlined part debunked your entire argument. Paying for EVE stuff with real money doesn't give you an advantage that another player can't gain using in-game means. There is no pay to win in EVE.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.

Tul Breetai
Impromptu Asset Requisition
#109 - 2013-01-26 02:12:45 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Paragraphs, are your friends.

Attempted manipulation? You mean answering the question, you posed? Which turns out not to be the question, you wanted answering? You mean that poor use of English? I recommend asking the correct question first, although I'm not sure Google will help you in that regard.

Also, I said that argument was ridiculous, just as yours was.
As an English native speaker, your reading and comprehension leaves a lot to be desired. What?


I already told you what the question was, you know what the purpose was, and you've used so many logical fallacies it's not worth picking them out now. HTFU

There's nothing worse than an EVE player, generally considered to be top of the food chain in the MMO world, that cannot smacktalk with wit and coherency.

Tul Breetai
Impromptu Asset Requisition
#110 - 2013-01-26 02:13:41 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Tul Breetai wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:


Good thing your roommate needs do neither to gain an advantage over you. He just needs to get 2 friends.


Yes. In-game, via in-game means, with time and possibly knowledge, responsibilties, personality, and assets invested. And I hope he can trust them as much as I can trust my alts, though they do have a mind of their own sometimes... P


The underlined part debunked your entire argument. Paying for EVE stuff with real money doesn't give you an advantage that another player can't gain using in-game means. There is no pay to win in EVE.



Quote:
MY argument is that pay-to-win is paying for advantages. Advantages that may be otherwise impossible under the circumstances (i.e. immediate advantages that normally take time, cooperation, playing the game, etc.), but most certainly advantages that require playing the game before getting. I am paying for advantages in EVE, but it lets me play as if I invested more time than I've had to invest in the game. Oh well.


You too. Logical fallacies. Google "debunk".

There's nothing worse than an EVE player, generally considered to be top of the food chain in the MMO world, that cannot smacktalk with wit and coherency.

RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#111 - 2013-01-26 02:17:01 UTC
Tul Breetai wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Tul Breetai wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:


Good thing your roommate needs do neither to gain an advantage over you. He just needs to get 2 friends.


Yes. In-game, via in-game means, with time and possibly knowledge, responsibilties, personality, and assets invested. And I hope he can trust them as much as I can trust my alts, though they do have a mind of their own sometimes... P


The underlined part debunked your entire argument. Paying for EVE stuff with real money doesn't give you an advantage that another player can't gain using in-game means. There is no pay to win in EVE.



Quote:
MY argument is that pay-to-win is paying for advantages. Advantages that may be otherwise impossible under the circumstances (i.e. immediate advantages that normally take time, cooperation, playing the game, etc.), but most certainly advantages that require playing the game before getting. I am paying for advantages in EVE, but it lets me play as if I invested more time than I've had to invest in the game. Oh well.


You too. Logical fallacies. Google "debunk".



Using a different definition than everyone else and claiming you're correct because the definition that only you use fits your argument is some sort of fallacy.

Probably in the line of equivocation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy#Equivocation

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

Mag's
Azn Empire
#112 - 2013-01-26 02:25:15 UTC
Tul Breetai wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Paragraphs, are your friends.

Attempted manipulation? You mean answering the question, you posed? Which turns out not to be the question, you wanted answering? You mean that poor use of English? I recommend asking the correct question first, although I'm not sure Google will help you in that regard.

Also, I said that argument was ridiculous, just as yours was.
As an English native speaker, your reading and comprehension leaves a lot to be desired. What?


I already told you what the question was, you know what the purpose was, and you've used so many logical fallacies it's not worth picking them out now. HTFU
You asked the question and when it wasn't answered to your liking, you changed the whole parameters. You then cry about it and suggest I should HTFU. Classic. Lol

Not worth picking them out now you say? OK sure, time for bed then. Maybe when you've Googled what logical fallacies are, you can try and fit them to what I've said. Blink

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#113 - 2013-01-26 02:55:44 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Tul Breetai wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Tul Breetai wrote:
Are you honestly saying that is not an advantage expressly provided by my rl money?


Yes because those advantages can be gained using isk instead. That's the beauty of the PLEX system.


... yes, and? I'm not complaining about it, but you have to admit I and many others wouldn't have the isk to gain those benefits as soon, or ever. I have more money than time, so I pay for advantages over others aka I pay-to-win, in the eve sense. That way I can enjoy my game. Maybe I'm not taking this omgserious enough?


You aren't getting an advantage over anyone else though. You paid real money to save time, that doesn't give you an advantage.


I'm pretty sure time, as defined as being able to do things faster than other people, is considered an advantage.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server

Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#114 - 2013-01-26 03:16:19 UTC
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
You aren't getting an advantage over anyone else though. You paid real money to save time, that doesn't give you an advantage.


I'm pretty sure time, as defined as being able to do things faster than other people, is considered an advantage.


Yet someone can get that exact same thing just as quickly with out spending real money. You seem to be having trouble understanding this.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.

Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#115 - 2013-01-26 03:27:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Tardbar
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
You aren't getting an advantage over anyone else though. You paid real money to save time, that doesn't give you an advantage.


I'm pretty sure time, as defined as being able to do things faster than other people, is considered an advantage.


Yet someone can get that exact same thing just as quickly with out spending real money. You seem to be having trouble understanding this.


Not if they don't have enough time.

A player who sits home in their mom's basment obviously has the advantage of time versus a player who works 40 hours and week and has to take their kids to after school activities.

The unemployed player has the advantage of time and therfore can earn more isk.

The employed player has the advantage of money and can trade the advantage of money for the advantage of time.

It can somewhat balance itself out, but if a player spent $10,000 on plex, they would have the advantage of about a years worth of time that is basically impossible for a player with one account to acheive in a year.

If that rich player kept buying $10,000 isk per year (well they'd deflate the plex market but) then there is no way for even a unemployed player to ever catch up.

On that note, wealth is obiously an advantage. You can fly better ships, trade in higher volumes, and get access to hi-end manufacturing that low income players will never acheive. You can use that wealth to hire mercs, supply your corp with better pvp ships, and throw gank ships at problems of yours.

Now if you say time equals wealth. If that is true than time is also an advantage because time is a scare resource.

Does that make sense?

If everyone in the game played the same exact hours then yeah, time would not be an advantage, but the truth of the matter is not everyone can play 80 hours a week.

[edit]

On a side note that I wanted to add, is that if a new player plex's their account from day one, they can buy implants and better ships to earn more isk faster than they would if they worked their way up to that point. Now that has the disadvantage of not learning the game, but in truth they'd have a wealth advantage over a new player who would have to spend all that time earning a lower rate of isk. Overall the wealthier plexer is at a perment higher advantage becaues even if the regular player catches up they still have lost the time advantage from those early earnings.

Its why startup businesses want capital to start out big instead of starting out small. Because the more time you spend at higher incomes, the more advantage you have in the market.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server

Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#116 - 2013-01-26 03:31:00 UTC
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
You aren't getting an advantage over anyone else though. You paid real money to save time, that doesn't give you an advantage.


I'm pretty sure time, as defined as being able to do things faster than other people, is considered an advantage.


Yet someone can get that exact same thing just as quickly with out spending real money. You seem to be having trouble understanding this.


Not if they don't have enough time.

A player who sits home in their mom's basment obviously has the advantage of time versus a player who works 40 hours and week and has to take their kids to after school activities.

The unemployed player has the advantage of time and therfore can earn more isk.

The employed player has the advantage of money and can trade the advantage of money for the advantage of time.

It can somewhat balance itself out, but if a player spent $10,000 on plex, they would have the advantage of about a years worth of time that is basically impossible for a player with one account to acheive in a year.

If that rich player kept buying $10,000 isk per year (well they'd deflate the plex market but) then there is no way for even a unemployed player to ever catch up.

On that note, wealth is obiously an advantage. You can fly better ships, trade in higher volumes, and get access to hi-end manufacturing that low income players will never acheive. You can use that wealth to hire mercs, supply your corp with better pvp ships, and throw gank ships at problems of yours.

Now if you say time equals wealth. If that is true than time is also an advantage because time is a scare resource.

Does that make sense?

If everyone in the game played the same exact hours then yeah, time would not be an advantage, but the truth of the matter is not everyone can play 80 hours a week.


I wish I could play 80 hours a week, but work is very demanding these days. With that said, I put exactly zero dollars in to EVE & can still get the same things as you with very little effort involved. The topic is about pay to win, but you've slowly tried to twist it in to something that it isn't.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.

Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#117 - 2013-01-26 03:38:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Tardbar
Mallak Azaria wrote:
I wish I could play 80 hours a week, but work is very demanding these days. With that said, I put exactly zero dollars in to EVE & can still get the same things as you with very little effort involved. The topic is about pay to win, but you've slowly tried to twist it in to something that it isn't.


If you don't plex and can't play 80 hours a week, then the player who either plays 80 hours a week or spends thousands of dollars in plex has an isk advantage over you.

Now what I am arguing is that you can only play so many hours per week.

Even players who play 80 hours a week have to sleep.

Someone with enough money can in theory buy more isk through plex than a player who plays 80 hours a week can earn. That is an advantage because they can buy more time than can be actually be played by one person.

Not many people send thousands on plexes but it is possible if wealthy enough.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

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Celly Smunt
Neutin Local LLC
#118 - 2013-01-26 03:43:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Celly S
Captain Tardbar wrote:


I'm pretty sure time, as defined as being able to do things faster than other people, is considered an advantage.



I can't quote the exact thread or line now, however it was stated during the NEX debacle that the only "time" in EvE that really mattered was skilling time/time in game and that circumventing that would be game-breaking.

to be honest, a 2 day old toon could in theory own a titan if they so chose to buy enough plex and sell them on the market for enough isks to buy one, but that toon could not fly the ship until they put in the time.

it is fair to say that with enough plex a player could conceivably have a nicer ship faster than a player who doesn't buy and then sell plex?, certainly it is, but as I recall it being stated a ship like that was "just a loot pinata in the hands of an inexperienced pilot".
"Still not able to fly/operate it until they have the time invested in the skills to do so"

On to the topic of the thread?, yes, it would be, but not because of any "rationalization" of what pay to win is or isn't, and to address what the substance of the thread has become?, No, buying plex with RL money and selling it in game is not "in CCP's view" (and most others view as well) P2W.

Honestly, CCP's view is really the only one that matters in this issue since they are the game gods, for those of us players who disagree?, we have options available to us, the main one being to go somewhere else if we don't like their view.

certainly this isn't what you might want to hear, but the forums are replete with these very same statements and conclusions from both players and CCP representatives...

thanks for your time.
o/
Celly

Don't mistake fact for arrogance, supposition for fact, or disagreement for dismissal. Perception is unique in that it can be shared or singular. Run with the pack if you wish, but think for yourself. A sandwich can be a great motivator.

Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#119 - 2013-01-26 03:50:53 UTC
Captain Tardbar wrote:
If you don't plex and can't play 80 hours a week, then the player who either plays 80 hours a week or spends thousands of dollars in plex has an isk advantage over you.


When you take in to consideration the amount of people that just give me all of their stuff... No, they don't have an isk advantage over me at all. Just because someone spends a lot of time or money on the game doesn't mean they have more isk.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.

Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#120 - 2013-01-26 03:53:27 UTC
Celly Smunt wrote:
Captain Tardbar wrote:


I'm pretty sure time, as defined as being able to do things faster than other people, is considered an advantage.



I can't quote the exact thread or line now, however it was stated during the NEX debacle that the only "time" in EvE that really mattered was skilling time/time in game and that circumventing that would be game-breaking.

to be honest, a 2 day old toon could in theory own a titan if they so chose to buy enough plex and sell them on the market for enough isks to buy one, but that toon could not fly the ship until they put in the time.

it is fair to say that with enough plex a player could conceivably have a nicer ship faster than a player who doesn't buy and then sell plex?, certainly it is, but as I recall it being stated a ship like that was "just a loot pinata in the hands of an inexperienced pilot".
"Still not able to fly/operate it until they have the time invested in the skills to do so"

On to the topic of the thread?, yes, it would be, but not because of any "rationalization" of what pay to win is or isn't, and to address what the substance of the thread has become?, No, buying plex with RL money and selling it in game is not "in CCP's view" (and most others view as well) P2W.

Honestly, CCP's view is really the only one that matters in this issue since they are the game gods, for those of us players who disagree?, we have options available to us, the main one being to go somewhere else if we don't like their view.

certainly this isn't what you might want to hear, but the forums are replete with these very same statements and conclusions from both players and CCP representatives...

thanks for your time.
o/
Celly



I'm not arguing that the whole idea of plex is a bad idea because it does give players the ability to enjoy the game without actually paying money. That is also an advantage for people who have less money than time.

I am just saying that someone with enough money could in theory earn more isk that is possible to earn by playing eve at any given time. That is an advantage. Is it play to win. Somewhat, but it is acceptable because that enables other players to play for free.

On a side note... If a player was well researched in EvE and decided to start playing. If they knew what they were doing the first thing they could do to have an advantage over other new players is to train Cybernetics to V and use plex to have hundreds of millions isk worth of implants and eventually they'll have a skill advantage over players who started the same time as they did.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server