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Pay to win? Game Breaking?
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#81 - 2013-01-25 20:33:11 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Captain Tardbar wrote:
We already have pay to win.

It's called Plex.


Which advantage over other players does PLEX give you that they can't get through conventional means?

Minor issue with that argument is that it would suggest that anything you can get in game is ok to be bought with real money because there are other in game means to get it.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#82 - 2013-01-25 20:34:28 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Tul Breetai wrote:
To add to this, functionally it's near impossible to enforce the pay-to-win that is alts, so ccp gave the practice their blessing (hey, what the heck, it's more money). It's still pay-to-win, and it's still wrong, but not worth enforcing. Therefore, it doesn't justify introducing something else to do the same thing at lower cost and with lower system requirements.


Paying for an alt account doesn't give you an advantage over another person who doesn't pay money since accounts can be paid with isk, therefore it's not pay to win.


It also doesn't give you an advantage over another person who neither pays money or ISK but instead finds a friend to cooperate with.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#83 - 2013-01-25 20:53:44 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Captain Tardbar wrote:
We already have pay to win.

It's called Plex.


Which advantage over other players does PLEX give you that they can't get through conventional means?

Minor issue with that argument is that it would suggest that anything you can get in game is ok to be bought with real money because there are other in game means to get it.


Anything that can be purchased with isk (everything) can be purchased with real money via PLEX. Where was the issue with that argument again?

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#84 - 2013-01-25 20:59:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Mallak Azaria wrote:

Anything that can be purchased with isk (everything) can be purchased with real money via PLEX. Where was the issue with that argument again?

I think that statement is about as close to calling it pay to win as you can get without outright saying it. At the very least it acknowledges the advantage it gives.

Which as it turns out was my argument.

Edit: Please note the phrase "pay 2 win" is being used liberally here to include "pay to save time/effort" as well.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#85 - 2013-01-25 21:24:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:

Anything that can be purchased with isk (everything) can be purchased with real money via PLEX. Where was the issue with that argument again?

I think that statement is about as close to calling it pay to win as you can get without outright saying it. At the very least it acknowledges the advantage it gives.

Which as it turns out was my argument.

Edit: Please note the phrase "pay 2 win" is being used liberally here to include "pay to save time/effort" as well.

Except, of course, that that has literally nothing to do with pay to win.

I can buy something with cash, you can buy the exact same thing with ISK.

Who gained an advantage?

I "might" be able to get that thing a little quicker (debateable and situational), while you get it without paying a thing in real currency.

We both get the exact same thing, the only thing that differs is our choice of currency to pay with.

Not even close to pay to win, sorry.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
NEONOVUS
Mindstar Technology
Goonswarm Federation
#86 - 2013-01-25 21:38:55 UTC
What if boosters were made into aurum items?
Would that br3ak the game
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#87 - 2013-01-25 22:04:33 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:

Anything that can be purchased with isk (everything) can be purchased with real money via PLEX. Where was the issue with that argument again?

I think that statement is about as close to calling it pay to win as you can get without outright saying it. At the very least it acknowledges the advantage it gives.

Which as it turns out was my argument.

Edit: Please note the phrase "pay 2 win" is being used liberally here to include "pay to save time/effort" as well.


You've failed to detail which advantage this gives. Paying to save time &/or effort doesn't relate to pay to win at all. Someone at some point put in the time & effort & exchanged that for isk. Neither party gained an advantage over anyone else that they couldn't already get.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Theodoric Darkwind
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#88 - 2013-01-25 22:14:34 UTC
Stegas Tyrano wrote:
So spending RL money or Plex for a second account isn't? Everyone who replied is a noob.


Or you could maybe fly with other people? EVE is a pretty ****** game when playing by yourself.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#89 - 2013-01-25 22:25:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Ranger 1 wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:

Anything that can be purchased with isk (everything) can be purchased with real money via PLEX. Where was the issue with that argument again?

I think that statement is about as close to calling it pay to win as you can get without outright saying it. At the very least it acknowledges the advantage it gives.

Which as it turns out was my argument.

Edit: Please note the phrase "pay 2 win" is being used liberally here to include "pay to save time/effort" as well.

Except, of course, that that has literally nothing to do with pay to win.

I can buy something with cash, you can buy the exact same thing with ISK.

Who gained an advantage?

I "might" be able to get that thing a little quicker (debateable and situational), while you get it without paying a thing in real currency.

We both get the exact same thing, the only thing that differs is our choice of currency to pay with.

Not even close to pay to win, sorry.

Guess that depends on your view of whether outside currency should ever be able to influence ingame play. Depending on how strict you want to be about it, it can be argued that ANY effect real money has in game is a paid for advantage and has no place. I say arguable because hardliners either way won't be convinced regardless of how well stated the others point is or what merits it has.

But one side point. Should someone be able to have the best in a game (item wise) because they were good at earning real money despite being terrible at the game? Really I'm guessing that is the point of contention.
Google Voices
Doomheim
#90 - 2013-01-25 23:04:36 UTC
The answer you are looking for is ....Yes....but not in the way you think.



"Fozzie could not comment on when this issue would be resolved and stated that “one day Veritas will come up to me and say ‘hey I fixed off-grid boosting’”, but he had no idea on a potential timeframe for this sort of miracle."
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#91 - 2013-01-25 23:24:59 UTC
In a game like EVE, where every item is freely traded on the market, P2W doesn't cause the same problems (of I paid, so I win) that it causes in other games.

The problem is that it introduces overpowered (or else why bother buying gold ammo in the first place) items that bypass the normal means of asset acquisition (or else they're not actually P2W items, they're just items).

Take "Gold Ammo"
Say it's 10% more powerful than faction ammo.
By introducing it, you've just devalued the effort of everyone who creates faction ammo through normal gameplay.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Tul Breetai
Impromptu Asset Requisition
#92 - 2013-01-26 00:19:58 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:

Pay to win is when you can pay money to gain an advantage over other players that they cannot obtain through in game means.

We all have 2 alts on our account, so I am assuming you are talking about players with more than one account.

A player does not have to pay money out of his pocket to have more than one account, anyone can pay for extra accounts with ISK obtained through in game means. In fact, most people fund their extra accounts with ISK alone.

What you have described is in no way pay to win.


C... can you use those 3 characters on one account simultaneously??? DERP.

There's nothing worse than an EVE player, generally considered to be top of the food chain in the MMO world, that cannot smacktalk with wit and coherency.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#93 - 2013-01-26 00:27:09 UTC
Tul Breetai wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:

Pay to win is when you can pay money to gain an advantage over other players that they cannot obtain through in game means.

We all have 2 alts on our account, so I am assuming you are talking about players with more than one account.

A player does not have to pay money out of his pocket to have more than one account, anyone can pay for extra accounts with ISK obtained through in game means. In fact, most people fund their extra accounts with ISK alone.

What you have described is in no way pay to win.


C... can you use those 3 characters on one account simultaneously??? DERP.
Yes, to trade and build. Derp.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Tul Breetai
Impromptu Asset Requisition
#94 - 2013-01-26 00:32:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Tul Breetai
Mag's wrote:
Tul Breetai wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:

Pay to win is when you can pay money to gain an advantage over other players that they cannot obtain through in game means.

We all have 2 alts on our account, so I am assuming you are talking about players with more than one account.

A player does not have to pay money out of his pocket to have more than one account, anyone can pay for extra accounts with ISK obtained through in game means. In fact, most people fund their extra accounts with ISK alone.

What you have described is in no way pay to win.


C... can you use those 3 characters on one account simultaneously??? DERP.
Yes, to trade and build. Derp.


Do you think that's what I'm talking about? Derp.

There's too many people here assuming they have this perfect definition of pay-to-win, a definition that has eluded the gaming community to date. You're arguing that if it's possible to get the same result via in-game means regardless of timeframe, it's not pay-to-win... whereas I would argue that paying rl money for an immediate advantage versus being forced to wait and work for an advantage is also pay-to-win, seemingly by definition (pay money to win game). CCP originally didn't approve of alts, remember, then they realized it was impossible to enforce, more so with the introduction of plex as in-game items. I have alts, and I pay rl money for them, and I have a distinct advantage over someone who does not. I can go on two-man roams alone. I have neutral rr. I have a live scout. I have 9 characters to do PI with, and I have 9 characters' orders to use. Are you honestly saying that is not an advantage expressly provided by my rl money? Because I guarantee you I wouldn't have alts if it weren't, I probably wouldn't still be playing.

There's nothing worse than an EVE player, generally considered to be top of the food chain in the MMO world, that cannot smacktalk with wit and coherency.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#95 - 2013-01-26 00:35:59 UTC
Tul Breetai wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Tul Breetai wrote:


C... can you use those 3 characters on one account simultaneously??? DERP.
Yes, to trade and build. Derp.


Do you think that's what I'm talking about? Derp.
Read your question again and tell me. Derp.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Tul Breetai
Impromptu Asset Requisition
#96 - 2013-01-26 00:49:18 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Tul Breetai wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Tul Breetai wrote:


C... can you use those 3 characters on one account simultaneously??? DERP.
Yes, to trade and build. Derp.


Do you think that's what I'm talking about? Derp.
Read your question again and tell me. Derp.


This is cute and fantastic, but I don't think you're stupid. You're trying to be clever. It's self-evident that I meant logged in and active simultaneously. I edited it for you, reply to that.

There's nothing worse than an EVE player, generally considered to be top of the food chain in the MMO world, that cannot smacktalk with wit and coherency.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#97 - 2013-01-26 00:49:34 UTC
Tul Breetai wrote:
Are you honestly saying that is not an advantage expressly provided by my rl money?


Yes because those advantages can be gained using isk instead. That's the beauty of the PLEX system.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Tul Breetai
Impromptu Asset Requisition
#98 - 2013-01-26 01:08:44 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Tul Breetai wrote:
Are you honestly saying that is not an advantage expressly provided by my rl money?


Yes because those advantages can be gained using isk instead. That's the beauty of the PLEX system.


... yes, and? I'm not complaining about it, but you have to admit I and many others wouldn't have the isk to gain those benefits as soon, or ever. I have more money than time, so I pay for advantages over others aka I pay-to-win, in the eve sense. That way I can enjoy my game. Maybe I'm not taking this omgserious enough?

There's nothing worse than an EVE player, generally considered to be top of the food chain in the MMO world, that cannot smacktalk with wit and coherency.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#99 - 2013-01-26 01:14:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Tul Breetai wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Tul Breetai wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Tul Breetai wrote:


C... can you use those 3 characters on one account simultaneously??? DERP.
Yes, to trade and build. Derp.


Do you think that's what I'm talking about? Derp.
Read your question again and tell me. Derp.


This is cute and fantastic, but I don't think you're stupid. You're trying to be clever. It's self-evident that I meant logged in and active simultaneously. I edited it for you, reply to that.
If that wasn't the question you wanted answering, then why ask it? Your poor use of the English language, is not my concern. I answered your question honestly. Don't try and act all superior now, simply because that line of argument/questioning failed.

Paying for more accounts, doesn't mean Pay2Win. I fly with corp mates. Does this mean our corp is Pay2Win, over a one man corp? No and it's a ridiculous argument to make. So is having ISK early.

I already made my point regarding Pay2Win. 57

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#100 - 2013-01-26 01:14:42 UTC
Tul Breetai wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Tul Breetai wrote:
Are you honestly saying that is not an advantage expressly provided by my rl money?


Yes because those advantages can be gained using isk instead. That's the beauty of the PLEX system.


... yes, and? I'm not complaining about it, but you have to admit I and many others wouldn't have the isk to gain those benefits as soon, or ever. I have more money than time, so I pay for advantages over others aka I pay-to-win, in the eve sense. That way I can enjoy my game. Maybe I'm not taking this omgserious enough?


Paying in game currency for in game advantages over others is called normal game mechanics in every video game ever that has an in game currency.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon