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CCP: Where did you get the idea about NPC AI changes?
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Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#61 - 2013-01-25 20:13:32 UTC
Montevius Williams wrote:
[quote=Spurty]EVE is many things.

Easy isn't one of them./quote]

Unless you are a miner....or a suicide ganker.


Suicide ganking isn't always easy, we just make it look easy because we're very stylish like that.

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Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#62 - 2013-01-25 20:19:05 UTC
I used to like drone ships for PvE, but now not so much. It wasn't a big deal to me because I didn't PvE that much to beging with.

However, the industrialist in me likes people losing drones because that makes them more profitable to sell.

Though, I do believe if people stop using drone boats because of these AI changes, then people will just stop buying drones in general.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

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Winchester Steele
#63 - 2013-01-25 21:52:14 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Large Drones WILL die now without fail. Useless utterly.

This was not a well thought out change at all.


Could not disagree more. I rat and mish in an ishtar and rattlesnake exclusively and with a few very very minor adjustments in tactics I have 0 issues using heavy, or frankly, any drones. My efficiency has not suffered in the slightest.

Think I've lost maybe 3 drones since the ai change. Maybe stop bot and afk farming? (not neccessarily directed at you Krixtal)

I for one welcome our new NPC AI overlords.

Regards,

...

Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#64 - 2013-01-25 21:57:37 UTC
Montevius Williams wrote:
[quote=Spurty]EVE is many things.

Easy isn't one of them./quote]

Unless you are a miner....or a suicide ganker.


one makes it easy for the other, who's to blame for that?

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#65 - 2013-01-25 22:17:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Winchester Steele wrote:
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Large Drones WILL die now without fail. Useless utterly.

This was not a well thought out change at all.


Could not disagree more. I rat and mish in an ishtar and rattlesnake exclusively and with a few very very minor adjustments in tactics I have 0 issues using heavy, or frankly, any drones. My efficiency has not suffered in the slightest.

Think I've lost maybe 3 drones since the ai change. Maybe stop bot and afk farming? (not neccessarily directed at you Krixtal)

I for one welcome our new NPC AI overlords.

Regards,

I've had the opposite experience, heavies taking immediate aggro and dropping shields just after being told to engage and before reaching a target < 8km away. Also using a Rattlesnake. I would suppose I have also technically suffered an efficiency loss for every recall that resulted from rats switching aggro. Never was to into measuring mission times though so I can't quantify it.

Edit: Not to say drones are terrible or unusable, but i don't trust heavies in space outside of 10km anymore AND having only a small number of rats on the field.
Josef Djugashvilis
#66 - 2013-01-25 22:27:45 UTC
Phoehnix wrote:
People are whining because they are used to playing in a specific way and its a bother to them to change.
Maybe CCP wants to move missions away from mind-dumbing gameplay to something more fun


More fun?

Hmm...

This is not a signature.
Winchester Steele
#67 - 2013-01-25 22:28:39 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Winchester Steele wrote:
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Large Drones WILL die now without fail. Useless utterly.

This was not a well thought out change at all.


Could not disagree more. I rat and mish in an ishtar and rattlesnake exclusively and with a few very very minor adjustments in tactics I have 0 issues using heavy, or frankly, any drones. My efficiency has not suffered in the slightest.

Think I've lost maybe 3 drones since the ai change. Maybe stop bot and afk farming? (not neccessarily directed at you Krixtal)

I for one welcome our new NPC AI overlords.

Regards,

I've had the opposite experience, heavies taking immediate aggro and dropping shields just after being told to engage and before reaching a target < 8km away. Also using a Rattlesnake. I would suppose I have also technically suffered an efficiency loss for every recall that resulted from rats switching aggro. Never was to into measuring mission times though so I can't quantify it.

Edit: Not to say drones are terrible or unusable, but i don't trust heavies in space outside of 10km anymore AND having only a small number of rats on the field.


Tbh, I mostly use sentries on my Rattler. Heavies on my ishtar though. I do agree with your 10km statement. Which is one of the minor adjustment in tactics to which I was referring.

Im not saying there was no impact on the way a drone user rats, but this sky is falling mentality is pretty ridiculous. Its really not that bad at all.

...

Ramius Castus
Deep Blue Research and Development
#68 - 2013-01-25 23:45:04 UTC
Tried to do a mission recently, realized missions have disappeared replaced by drone babysitting. Launch drones, recall immediatly due to fact that every npc locked the exact same drone and insta popped it before i could even tell it was being targetted, wait to be retargetted as prime, relaunch drones, wait 30 seconds, recall drones since they were targetted again, wait to be retargetted as prime, relaunch drones, wait 30 seconds, recall drones since they were targetted again, wait to be retargetted as prime, relaunch drones, wait 30 seconds, recall drones since they were targetted again, wait to be retargetted as prime, relaunch drones, wait 30 seconds, recall drones since they were targetted again, wait to be retargetted as prime, relaunch drones, wait 30 seconds, recall drones since they were targetted again, wait to be retargetted as prime, relaunch drones, wait 30 seconds, recall drones since they were targetted again, wait to be retargetted as prime, relaunch drones, wait 30 seconds, recall drones since they were targetted again, wait to be retargetted as prime, relaunch drones, wait 30 seconds, recall drones since they were targetted again, wait to be retargetted as prime, relaunch drones, wait 30 seconds, recall drones since they were targetted again, wait to be retargetted as prime, relaunch drones, wait 30 seconds, recall drones since they were targetted again, wait to be retargetted as prime, relaunch drones, wait 30 seconds, recall drones since they were targetted again, wait to be retargetted as prime, relaunch drones, wait 30 seconds, recall drones since they were targetted again, wait to be retargetted as prime, relaunch drones, wait 30 seconds, recall drones since they were targetted again, wait to be retargetted as prime, relaunch drones, wait 30 seconds, recall drones since they were targetted again, wait to be retargetted as prime, relaunch drones, wait 30 seconds, recall drones since they were targetted again, wait to be retargetted as prime, relaunch drones, wait 30 seconds, recall drones since they were targetted again, wait to be retargetted as prime, relaunch drones, wait 30 seconds, recall drones since they were targetted again, wait to be retargetted as prime, relaunch drones, wait 30 seconds, recall drones since they were targetted again. Finally realize a whole style of game play has been eliminated, removing kiting for noobs, and relying on drones when you are jammed by 10-15 ships. Drones went from being weak to being completely broken. We should at least have gotten some drone controls to go along with the change, drone targetted alerts, auto dock when target, attack closest to farthest, smallest to largest.
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#69 - 2013-01-26 01:50:08 UTC
If CCP wanted PvE to feel like PvP then you'd warp into a mission, see one frigate, fire one shot at it, and then fifteen Titans would cyno on top of you and alpha you for enough damage to destroy time itself.

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0
ALLOWER
The Logs Show Nothing
#70 - 2013-01-26 03:34:42 UTC
this ....

#3Posted: 2013.01.25 12:02 | Edited by: Whitehound

The only mistake I personally see is with drones and that CCP should have given us a better interface to control drones before making NPCs smarter. It is frankly a pain in the arse having to control individual drones over a menu with 10-15 entries where I spend half the time just trying to find the right entry. Modules on the other hand can be activated individually over the keyboard and allow to be rearranged to make it even easier. It is quite a difference!

I do like to use drones and I don't mind NPCs being smarter, but the interface is beginning to suck hard on my nerves.


Most times it 'appears' CCP takes a lazy approach to changes ; making an adjustment to one thing while seemly, not considering some unintended consequences.
Lack of forethought is commonly seen in alot of government initiatives and where a good idea is poorly initiated. And like a lot of governments CCP does take too well to admitting missteps.
Baron Dmitri Harkonnen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#71 - 2013-01-26 03:51:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Baron Dmitri Harkonnen
ALLOWER wrote:
this ....

#3Posted: 2013.01.25 12:02 | Edited by: Whitehound

The only mistake I personally see is with drones and that CCP should have given us a better interface to control drones before making NPCs smarter. It is frankly a pain in the arse having to control individual drones over a menu with 10-15 entries where I spend half the time just trying to find the right entry. Modules on the other hand can be activated individually over the keyboard and allow to be rearranged to make it even easier. It is quite a difference!

I do like to use drones and I don't mind NPCs being smarter, but the interface is beginning to suck hard on my nerves.


Most times it 'appears' CCP takes a lazy approach to changes ; making an adjustment to one thing while seemly, not considering some unintended consequences.
Lack of forethought is commonly seen in alot of government initiatives and where a good idea is poorly initiated. And like a lot of governments CCP does take too well to admitting missteps.


That's pretty much my issue. I am all for changes to PVE to make it more involving but the way they went about it seems poor and half assed.

I am also curious to know why they want it to be more like PVP, I would of assumed a sandbox game would want diversity but your current goal is just to make two sides of the coin as close to each other as possible.
Winchester Steele
#72 - 2013-01-26 04:31:43 UTC
Ramius Castus wrote:
Tried to do a mission recently, realized missions have disappeared replaced by drone babysitting. Launch drones, recall immediatly due to fact that every npc locked the exact same drone and insta popped it before i could even tell it was being targetted, wait to be retargetted as prime, relaunch drones, wait 30 seconds, recall drones since they were targetted again, wait to be retargetted as prime, relaunch drones, wait 30 seconds, recall drones since they were targetted again, wait to be retargetted as prime, relaunch drones, wait 30 seconds, recall drones since they were targetted again, wait to be retargetted as prime, relaunch drones, wait 30 seconds, recall drones since they were targetted again, wait to be retargetted as prime, relaunch drones, wait 30 seconds, recall drones since they were targetted again, wait to be retargetted as prime, relaunch drones, wait 30 seconds, recall drones since they were targetted again, wait to be retargetted as prime, relaunch drones, wait 30 seconds, recall drones since they were targetted again, wait to be retargetted as prime, relaunch drones, wait 30 seconds, recall drones since they were targetted again, wait to be retargetted as prime, relaunch drones, wait 30 seconds, recall drones since they were targetted again, wait to be retargetted as prime, relaunch drones, wait 30 seconds, recall drones since they were targetted again, wait to be retargetted as prime, relaunch drones, wait 30 seconds, recall drones since they were targetted again, wait to be retargetted as prime, relaunch drones, wait 30 seconds, recall drones since they were targetted again, wait to be retargetted as prime, relaunch drones, wait 30 seconds, recall drones since they were targetted again, wait to be retargetted as prime, relaunch drones, wait 30 seconds, recall drones since they were targetted again, wait to be retargetted as prime, relaunch drones, wait 30 seconds, recall drones since they were targetted again, wait to be retargetted as prime, relaunch drones, wait 30 seconds, recall drones since they were targetted again, wait to be retargetted as prime, relaunch drones, wait 30 seconds, recall drones since they were targetted again, wait to be retargetted as prime, relaunch drones, wait 30 seconds, recall drones since they were targetted again. Finally realize a whole style of game play has been eliminated, removing kiting for noobs, and relying on drones when you are jammed by 10-15 ships. Drones went from being weak to being completely broken. We should at least have gotten some drone controls to go along with the change, drone targetted alerts, auto dock when target, attack closest to farthest, smallest to largest.



Wall of text notwithstanding, this is utter BS. Not sure if lying or just terrible, but I use drones all day every day and it is nowhere near as bad as you make it out to be. The way I see it: Whiners like you are the people who this change was targetted towards. Afk mission bots that want to set drones to aggressive and go watch a movie. Too bad son, your afk income is toast. Also HTFU.

...

Sab Sab Five
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#73 - 2013-01-26 04:34:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Sab Sab Five
heh adapt. U see this alot as advice, but its not bad advice given how long it can take the devs to change stuff around. Seems to me in the year i have played that the Devs at CCP lack the ability to "focus fire" their issues like many other companies, preferring to solve many issues with small sweeping patches that affect everything, hehe.

however, that being said, they did give the BS's the micro jump drive, which is a neat little way to get away from the mission rats, and as they give chase, your transversal to them makes the caldari sentry drone just melt them as they approach, with a minimum of damage to your drones.

I have lost a few lights and some gallente sentry drones when frigates got too close to me, usually due to carelessness, or laziness on my part.

I will agree, however, that for now... the old drone kiting methods are getting hit hard (especially the heavies and mediums, which have a long transit time where they are vulnerable because of their angle of attack, until they begin the up close orbits).

i look for better resists on t2 drones in future, and a better interface. Also using the midslot that increases speed might help to get them to target faster.

hotkeys and an agile ship also help out a bit, worth looking into. Since i use sentries, i hotkey "return to bay" and usually just orbit my sentries. Unless i am webbed by frigates i can usually get em reeled in in time to keep them from getting too destroyed (that is sentries, which have much better shields and armor than other drones).

Sometimes, if the frigates get in too close to fast, it behooves me to ignore them for a bit, till my sentries are done with the bigger fish that will destroy my smalls and mediums if i take them out to destroy the frigates before the others falling at me.

also a drone cycle (think like a cylinder in a pistol for bullets) would be nice, instead of always launching the hurt drone i just called in, but i expect this to come when drones get an overhaul...

and as has been pointed out so often in the last few months, CCP has been coming out with more drone boats (the new BCs include a nod to drones for amarr and improve on the myrm) so it won't be left alone for long. I would expect to see great strides taken by summer.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#74 - 2013-01-26 04:35:14 UTC
Ramius Castus wrote:
Finally realize a whole style of game play has been eliminated


AFK isk grinding was never a style of play since you can't play if you're AFK. CCP have now made it so you can't profit from not playing.

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Baron Dmitri Harkonnen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#75 - 2013-01-26 04:37:16 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Ramius Castus wrote:
Finally realize a whole style of game play has been eliminated


AFK isk grinding was never a style of play since you can't play if you're AFK. CCP have now made it so you can't profit from not playing.


This is not the point of this thread and I am pretty sure not the reason for the changes.
Sab Sab Five
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#76 - 2013-01-26 04:40:51 UTC
well, if we are being honest, wouldnt the whole rat fleet run like hell, warp out, anytime my navy BS showed up??

why stick around at all? it was always kinda weird that NPCs would ignore my drones and attack my super armored Domi
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#77 - 2013-01-26 05:06:55 UTC
Sab Sab Five wrote:
well, if we are being honest, wouldnt the whole rat fleet run like hell, warp out, anytime my navy BS showed up??

why stick around at all? it was always kinda weird that NPCs would ignore my drones and attack my super armored Domi

If they ran, you might have to learn concepts like tackling, and of course, point-before-you-web.

Consider that Faction police have not learned this yet.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Nexus Day
Lustrevik Trade and Travel Bureau
#78 - 2013-01-26 05:34:36 UTC
Meytal wrote:
It has been quite some time since I've run any agent missions, but I hear the changes brought k-space NPCs more in line with the Sleeper AI from W-space. If that's true, welcome to our world.

If NPCs are decimating your drones, perhaps it is because you are trying to afk or solo missions like you used to. The Sleeper AI has a greatly reduced chance to target drones when other players are present and a very high chance when you are alone. Perhaps you should play with others, since this is an MMO and all, and be attentive at the computer while doing so. There are also ways to further reduce the chance that your drones are shot as well.

(ECCM is also reported to work against jamming. Just a rumour, though, y'know)

Which is why it was said "Never use drones in W-Space". Now it seems people are having this difficulty in K-Space (although I haven't lost a drone since the change).

Sleeper AI must mean Sleeper level loots, right? Not quite.

My biggest issue would be with the ECM. Not the fact NPCs have it but the range. Why is the NPC ECM better than what I see in PvP? The fits needed for some missions do not resemble anything that you would see in PvP. If the intent is to drive people towards PvP isn't this counter productive?
Whisperen
Resilience.
The Initiative.
#79 - 2013-01-26 11:01:11 UTC
PVE is not hard enough can we get longpoints on all rats please?
4runner
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#80 - 2013-01-26 11:28:58 UTC
I stopped doing lvl 4 in my Raven, I got full agro and as soon as I launched my group of Warriors they frigs switched aggro to the drones, so I had to scoop them back and wait for aggro on me again, after 20 minutes every BS, BC and cruisers were long turned to dust, the only thing living were 6 frigs orbiting me, raping my drones the second I launched them