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[Retribution 1.1] Armor Tanking 1.5

First post First post
Author
Perihelion Olenard
#861 - 2013-01-25 16:46:56 UTC
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
CPU increase going from medium to large armor rep: 28 -> 55 (+96%)
PG increase going from medium to large armor rep: 173 -> 2300 (+1229%)

CPU increase going from large to x-large shield booster: 115 -> 230 (+100%)
PG increase going from large to x-large shield booster: 165 -> 550 (+233%)

Evidently the powergrid requirements of large armor repairers are so high to make it impossible to fit them on cruisers because that would be overpowered Blink

Also note that 2x rep are roughly equal to shield booster + boost amp in terms of power, yet the boost amp is easy to fit.




Well, armor tankers got more PG than shield ships. The maelstrom got a ton, but that's because artillery used a ton.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#862 - 2013-01-25 16:58:27 UTC
Perihelion Olenard wrote:
Well, armor tankers got more PG than shield ships. The maelstrom got a ton, but that's because artillery used a ton.
So it's more to do with gun requirements then.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#863 - 2013-01-25 17:10:45 UTC
New update, we're planning at the moment to reduce the powergrid use on medium and large armor reps.

Mediums by 20%
Larges by 10%

We were hoping to get these and all the other latest versions of the changes up on Sisi today, but we had an unrelated issue with our Sisi build system. ETA for Sisi is as soon as possible, sorry for the delay.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#864 - 2013-01-25 17:18:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Little Dragon Khamez
I think that Nanite Paste for normal reppers is the way to go instead of having them consume cap. Also why do plates needs PG?

Don't make any sense to me why bolting plates on a hull requires more power for a simple buffer fit, whereas I can understand the rationale behind an energised plate needing powergrid as it enhances resistances etc.

So Fozzie, how about no PG for plates and no cap use for reppers (just nanite paste).

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...

Mag's
Azn Empire
#865 - 2013-01-25 17:19:44 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
New update, we're planning at the moment to reduce the powergrid use on medium and large armor reps.

Mediums by 20%
Larges by 10%

We were hoping to get these and all the other latest versions of the changes up on Sisi today, but we had an unrelated issue with our Sisi build system. ETA for Sisi is as soon as possible, sorry for the delay.
20% for large would have been far better, after seeing the large disparity in Takeshi Yamato post.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Marko box
Atomic Bank
#866 - 2013-01-25 17:21:12 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
New update, we're planning at the moment to reduce the powergrid use on medium and large armor reps.

Mediums by 20%
Larges by 10%

We were hoping to get these and all the other latest versions of the changes up on Sisi today, but we had an unrelated issue with our Sisi build system. ETA for Sisi is as soon as possible, sorry for the delay.


A step in the right direction.
Now if only you would reduce cap boster charge size.
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#867 - 2013-01-25 17:30:08 UTC
Marko box wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
New update, we're planning at the moment to reduce the powergrid use on medium and large armor reps.

Mediums by 20%
Larges by 10%

We were hoping to get these and all the other latest versions of the changes up on Sisi today, but we had an unrelated issue with our Sisi build system. ETA for Sisi is as soon as possible, sorry for the delay.


A step in the right direction.
Now if only you would reduce cap boster charge size.


Reducing cap booster size means that you can burst tank for longer, whilst I support your sentiment on this I don't think they should be too small otherwise people will try to perma tank with them.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...

Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#868 - 2013-01-25 17:33:26 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
New update....

Poor guy, all he wanted was to give the ravenous horde a new toy and now he gets to revise the whole shebang Smile

Ships 'meant' to active tank already have the grid for it. The reductions are I assume to first counter the pending rig penalties and secondly to help ease the 'mandatory for active' injector onto some more fits (instead of using small with 400 navy booster).
Much easier, faster to tweak the repairers than to redo all the hulls and guns to make them match, so good move, whether it is enough remains to be seen but my Amarr ships have never had serious grid issues and the few fits that do take the dps hit to accommodate it so all is well ..

Aim should be to find a fitting req. that allows one to shoehorn a plate (non-oversized)+AAR onto a ship with max size guns I think, any more lenient and it gets boring and cookie flavoured .. there has to be some had choices before undocking!

Perihelion Olenard
#869 - 2013-01-25 17:43:12 UTC
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
...
So Fozzie, how about no PG for plates and no cap use for reppers (just nanite paste).

So you'd have nothing against cruisers fitting 3-4 1600mm plates for an absolutely absurd amount of HP?
Mund Richard
#870 - 2013-01-25 17:46:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Mund Richard
CCP Fozzie wrote:
New update, we're planning at the moment to reduce the powergrid use on medium and large armor reps.

Mediums by 20%
Larges by 10%

We were hoping to get these and all the other latest versions of the changes up on Sisi today, but we had an unrelated issue with our Sisi build system. ETA for Sisi is as soon as possible, sorry for the delay.

Going from a previous post that compared the PG increase between armor reppers and shield boosters:

Moa (electron blaster fit): 516.5/522.5 CPU, 1086/1168.75, has an XLASB (TWICE oversized module) with one Co-Proc and one Ancil rig (fit has T2 MagStab, T2 TE, T2 Co-Proc in the lows, T2 MWD, web, scram, T2 invuln and XLASB, 5T2 Heavy Roll Electron Blaster two shield rigs and the ancil)
Apparently, DOUBLE-oversizing is possible.

Thorax, trying to fit similarly with armor...
LAAR with the 10% PG reduction and THREE T1 Ancil rigs: 2798.5/1364.5, so 205% of the available PG used up.
Apparently nooo way in hell can you oversize it.
Heck, just fitting a LAAR on an otherwise UNFIT ship (apart from the tripple PG rigs): 1800/1364,3, or on an unrigged: 1800/1025

But ok, just because shield cruisers can double-oversize, it doesn't mean armor cruisers need to be able to single-oversize. RollRollRoll

Brutix with 3 PG rigs and nothing else: 1800/1913, it fits after the change!
Sure, it cannot fit any MWD afterwards, and only one T2 Heavy Electron Blaster... Roll

So...
I guess the aim was not to allow single oversized modules on armor BCs, while double oversizing is possible for cruisers.

...Was it... to basically make the PG drawback of the active rep rigs null and void?
Can put 3 on a cruiser and be better off than on the current TQ version at modest skills, will be able to put almost two on a BS once the change happens if Armor Rigging skill is at V.

Well... I suppose every tiny bit helps.
Wonder which word in the previous sentence the emphasis is on?
sarcasm is now off

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.

Captain Semper
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#871 - 2013-01-25 17:55:29 UTC
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:

So Fozzie, how about no PG for plates and no cap use for reppers (just nanite paste).

PG on plates isnt a problem realy. Well it would be better if it cost like 350-400 PG but with no PG it will be like
Perihelion Olenard wrote:

So you'd have nothing against cruisers fitting 3-4 1600mm plates for an absolutely absurd amount of HP?

But if you mean with giving no PG for plates, make flags for each type of plate (like 1600 only for BS, 400-800 only for BC/crus) and buff a lit all (non 1600mm) plates. Well maybe it will work :)
Mund Richard
#872 - 2013-01-25 17:57:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Mund Richard
Come to think of it, why not just remove small shield boosters from the game, rename mediums to smalls, larges to medium, and XL to large?
Then people couldn't complain about how armor cannot oversize, while shield can double-so. Roll

Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
So Fozzie, how about no PG for plates and no cap use for reppers (just nanite paste).

Because more PG-less tank modules would be bad.
Atmo guns, prop mods, cap boosters/drainers, repairers, raw buffers and the odd modules like warfare links use PG, while DC, resist modules don't.

Having reppers cost that much more PG and also cap is already "bad" enough, the balance in fitting going further for buffer isn't really needed.

Well, unless you want shield extenders to be also no-PG, and armor reppers halved, then all armor-tanking capable ships re-tiericided...Roll

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#873 - 2013-01-25 18:02:07 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
New update, we're planning at the moment to reduce the powergrid use on medium and large armor reps.

Mediums by 20%
Larges by 10%

We were hoping to get these and all the other latest versions of the changes up on Sisi today, but we had an unrelated issue with our Sisi build system. ETA for Sisi is as soon as possible, sorry for the delay.


That's fantastic news - I'm completely content with that. It'd be swell if you wanted to lower the PG usage on some of the named/faction small reps as well, but I'm totally content with what you've put forward.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Captain Semper
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#874 - 2013-01-25 18:05:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Semper
Mund Richard wrote:
Come to think of it, why not just remove small shield boosters from the game, rename mediums to smalls, larges to medium, and XL to large?
Then people couldn't complain about how armor cannot oversize, while shield can double-so. Roll


If you call the gun a candy, the gun will lose ability to shot? Ugh

In 1.1 retribution Fozzie shouldnt start thread with: "Armor tanking 2.0 (1.5 now)"
Its better: "We are finaly nerfing shield tank: all ridiculous mods like ASB, useless penalty that "cost" nothing for shield tank and etc"

But hey, im glad for this change as well. I belive step by step CCP will find balance and design between armor and shield tank :)
Wivabel
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#875 - 2013-01-25 18:15:23 UTC
Tell me when all this gets on sisi. I want it now.

I am not sure if I am going to log in anymore.......

Perihelion Olenard
#876 - 2013-01-25 18:20:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Perihelion Olenard
Wivabel wrote:
Tell me when all this gets on sisi. I want it now.

Most people would rather camp the combat areas with capitals, pirate ships, and tournament ships than test this stuff.
Eternal Error
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#877 - 2013-01-25 18:20:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternal Error
CCP Fozzie wrote:
New update, we're planning at the moment to reduce the powergrid use on medium and large armor reps.

Mediums by 20%
Larges by 10%

We were hoping to get these and all the other latest versions of the changes up on Sisi today, but we had an unrelated issue with our Sisi build system. ETA for Sisi is as soon as possible, sorry for the delay.
That's more like it. For the record, I still think that changing the active rep rigs to PG penalty is a really bad idea (reasons being usually only weapon rigs have that penalty, it's still going to be a VERY serious penalty that is out of whack compared to other tanking rigs, and even with this update reps are going to have some fitting issues).

Now scrap the AAR and fix regular rep amount+revamp the speed penalty on all armor rigs, and we might get somewhere.
Jojo Jackson
Dead Red Eye
#878 - 2013-01-25 18:39:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Jojo Jackson
CCP Fozzie wrote:
New update, we're planning at the moment to reduce the powergrid use on medium and large armor reps.

Mediums by 20%
Larges by 10%

We were hoping to get these and all the other latest versions of the changes up on Sisi today, but we had an unrelated issue with our Sisi build system. ETA for Sisi is as soon as possible, sorry for the delay.

This is the right way. But please don't stop here.

Just to get me right. I don't expect or want any overpowert stuff!
But I expect to be able to use more then one race for the hard PvE stuff. Atm shield tankers (espezialy Caldari Command Ships and Tengus) are the only viable option for let's say L10 exploration sites or higher Wormhole content (L5 and L6) as they are the only ships which can fit enough tank AND gang to do them.

I have the same problem as I had with the old mining bargs. Even if there are many other ships around ... just very few can do it and I am FORCED to use this few ships.

But I would REALY love to use Legions, Absolutions, Astartes or Proteus for the same stuff. It does not matter which one somebody prefares ... but if you start as Galente or Amar you shouldn't be FORCED to crosstrain Caldari just to get excess to the "endgame" PvE.

And the hardcap atm is, sorry to say, the ability to fit propper tanks!

Just as EFT-playaround: try this with a Legion or Proteus (armor tanked)
[Tengu, New Setup 1]
3*Ballistic Control System II
Co-Processor II

1MN Afterburner II
Pith X-Type X-Large Shield Booster(twice oversized modul !!!!)
Shield Boost Amplifier II
2*Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
EM Ward Field II

5*Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile
[empty high slot]

Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Processor Overclocking Unit I
Medium Semiconductor Memory Cell I

Tengu Defensive - Adaptive Shielding
Tengu Engineering - Capacitor Regeneration Matrix
Tengu Electronics - Emergent Locus Analyzer
Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay
Tengu Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst

2021 defence !!!!
42 sec cap with all active
593 Firepower
CPU and PG left !!!!

And this with only one (very expensive, true) deepspace modul! Rest is "just" T2 with T1 rigs. Spend more money and you gain even creazier values :(.

PS: The ability to fit Pith X-Type X-Large Shield Booster(twice oversized modul !!!!) at a Tengu (or BC) is compareble to fit
[Legion, New Setup 1]
6* TACHION BEAM LASER
PPS: try to fit ONE Tachion before you answare ;)

Why the hell can't I fitt capital repairs or shield booster on an Orca ... it's an CAPITAL ship!

Sinzor Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#879 - 2013-01-25 18:51:54 UTC
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
I think that Nanite Paste for normal reppers is the way to go instead of having them consume cap.

Paste for all reps - sure.
Instead of cap - hell no!
Sinzor Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#880 - 2013-01-25 18:55:23 UTC
Jojo Jackson wrote:
The ability to fit Pith X-Type X-Large Shield Booster(twice oversized modul !!!!) at a Tengu (or BC) is compareble to fit
[Legion, New Setup 1]
6* TACHION BEAM LASER

I guess the issue of oversized modules deserves separate discussion. You cant address everything at once.