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CCP: Where did you get the idea about NPC AI changes?
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Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#21 - 2013-01-25 13:18:52 UTC
EvE NPC AI is prehistoric. 10 years ago was already outdated. Ultima Online had better AI for NPC.

The last changes are good, a step in the right direction; but more have to be done.
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#22 - 2013-01-25 13:19:09 UTC
Meytal wrote:
There are also ways to further reduce the chance that your drones are shot as well.




Small Drones yes. Large Drones no.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
I Love Boobies
All Hail Boobies
#23 - 2013-01-25 13:29:25 UTC  |  Edited by: I Love Boobies
@ OP... an old Eve saying applies here... adapt or die. I fly a drone boat, and I am not having any issues. I adapted. And the drone boat itself helps with any ewar that might happen from the NPC. In fact, my mission times are much faster than ever before thanks to Sentries and a Large Micro Jump Drive. The NPC AI is fine, just learn to adapt. Those complaining about it are the ones who don't know how to, or refuse to adapt, and just want things handed to them without any work on their part.
Vera Algaert
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#24 - 2013-01-25 13:31:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Vera Algaert
EVE forum warriors complain endlessly about how NPCs should be less stupid.

EVE players just want to get over with the grindy part as fast as possible (to fund their plex, pvp, ...) and hate everything that reduces their PvE efficiency.

It was entirely predictable that a new AI that leads to less ISK/h and requires the user to pay more attention can only be a success if it is accompanied by other changes that would make PvE more engaging and - to some degree - its own reard.

Blame the forum warriors for thinking that "more difficult = more enjoyable" when in reality "more difficult = more time spent doing an activity that I don't enjoy" and blame CCP for listening to them.

.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#25 - 2013-01-25 13:32:54 UTC
Baron Dmitri Harkonnen wrote:
Because all I see are complaints.

I would of thought the developers would of received overwhelming data and feedback from players before making such a change since it affects such a large amount of the player base but the majority of the threads are wanting a rollback until it's fixed.

It's like a select few of you have this opinion on what EVE PVE should be and screw everyone else who thinks otherwise. You want it to be more like PVP but if people wanted that then...wouldn't they go and just PVP? Why are you forcing these changes when all the threads on the matter say no thank you.

Not only that but it's broken. I mean it's doable but it's a teeth pulling experience. EWAR is out of hand and flying a drone boat is just a hassle, you basically have to babysit your drones and even then they have a tendency to pop faster that you can recall.

So I ask you: Why the drastic changes and why change it like this? Where did you get your data from that this would be the best way? Why have you re-balanced NPC AI without the rest of the PVE changes that it was obviously intended for?

*Puts flame retardant suit on*


CCP has been saying for years that they want PVE to change and be better, and the succeeded with Wormholes and Incursions. The This latest change to NPC AI wasn't a total disaster imo, but it was very much a case of CCP deviating from what made other content additions (wormholes and incursions) great.

Wormholes and Incursions were built from the ground up to work with better NPC behavior, this is why people warping into a wormhole anomaly or complex aren't WTFStomped by 25 sleeper battleships on landing (for example).

But then they tried to slap a stripped down version of the new AI onto Mission and Complex content. Content that was created "back in the day" when all the game designers could do to spice them up was "add more npcs".

When they made a DEV blog about it, many of us in the PVE community screamed and shouted at them that this would screw up a lot of things, especially if applied to high end null-sec exploration and low sec missioncontent (like Blood Raider Naval Shipyard and other complexes with lots of ewar and citadel torps). I wasn't the only one stunned when CCP FoxFour told us in that thread that he wasn't even familiar with the content in question (the specific question was about the 9/10 Fleet Staging points, because they can come from Forsaken Hubs they are among the most COMMON complexes done in null sec)

After some testing, the ccp powers that be grudgingly told us that they would not apply the new AI to overseers and tower structures because of issues that came up during testing (well DUH lol), and that has made the npc AI change at least manageable for null sec explorers like me, but the whole thing was bassakward from the start.

I know there is a LOT of old pve content, but I think a better plan tha slapping new ai on old content would have been a phasing out over time of the old dumb AI content , replacing it as they went with new NPC AI content. CCP didn't try to rebalance all the ships in the game at once (Tiercide), they took are more cautious approach, and this approach is what should have happened with Missions a Complex content.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#26 - 2013-01-25 13:34:44 UTC
Baron Dmitri Harkonnen wrote:
MainDrain wrote:


People dont like changes because they have to pay attention and it now takes slightly more effort to grind the isk! Had they dumbed the AI down to make it easier people would have complained as well.

Players like to moan, nothing they could do would please everyone. I for one am happy with the changes after the fixed the insane aggro against drones (which they admitted)


Again no one is complaining about difficulty. This is an issue of introducing half of the "rebalance of PVE" without the other.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2462718#post2462718

They go on to say:

"Reducing NPC numbers also allows us to better scale EW player faces on a regular basis (mainly, we are referring to missions like the Blockade here). Assigning strong EW effects to few NPCs is fine, but it becomes horribly frustrating when faced with 5 full waves of NPCs sensor dampening you, as there is little the player can do to counter it. We should be relying on gameplay players can overcome if they are smart instead of brute force mechanics."

So we got the smarter AI and too many ships with EWAR. Why not wait until the whole thing is done?


Well said. I still don't understand why they took this approach instead of doing it better. CCP as a company has proved they can do pve right (incursions and wormholes), why not this too?
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#27 - 2013-01-25 13:35:46 UTC
Baron Dmitri Harkonnen wrote:
Because all I see are complaints.

I would of thought the developers would of received overwhelming data and feedback from players before making such a change since it affects such a large amount of the player base but the majority of the threads are wanting a rollback until it's fixed.

It's like a select few of you have this opinion on what EVE PVE should be and screw everyone else who thinks otherwise. You want it to be more like PVP but if people wanted that then...wouldn't they go and just PVP? Why are you forcing these changes when all the threads on the matter say no thank you.

Not only that but it's broken. I mean it's doable but it's a teeth pulling experience. EWAR is out of hand and flying a drone boat is just a hassle, you basically have to babysit your drones and even then they have a tendency to pop faster that you can recall.

So I ask you: Why the drastic changes and why change it like this? Where did you get your data from that this would be the best way? Why have you re-balanced NPC AI without the rest of the PVE changes that it was obviously intended for?

*Puts flame retardant suit on*


They got the idea for 2+ years of it working wonderfully in wormholes and also from the fact that there basically wasn't any "intelligence" at ALL in the old AI.

Sorry if you can only deal with utterly terrible braindead npcs and very slightly harder ones make you upset :(
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#28 - 2013-01-25 13:38:39 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Frankly about time the NPCs stopped acting like clay pigeons.

Yes you have to actually be at your computer now to make piles of isk, Oh the HorrorLol


That's simply not true at all. The change makes AFK mssionins and such EASIER. Before I had to put medium remote reps on a permatank Domi (5 of them, one for each drone) to AFK a mission.

Not I just use a single ECM burst to keep aggro plus a single small remote rep orr nos (directed at a targeted drone) to keep full grid aggro on the domi. Haven't lost a sentry drone in weeks while still not sitting at the computer.
Baron Dmitri Harkonnen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#29 - 2013-01-25 13:39:26 UTC
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
Baron Dmitri Harkonnen wrote:
Because all I see are complaints.

I would of thought the developers would of received overwhelming data and feedback from players before making such a change since it affects such a large amount of the player base but the majority of the threads are wanting a rollback until it's fixed.

It's like a select few of you have this opinion on what EVE PVE should be and screw everyone else who thinks otherwise. You want it to be more like PVP but if people wanted that then...wouldn't they go and just PVP? Why are you forcing these changes when all the threads on the matter say no thank you.

Not only that but it's broken. I mean it's doable but it's a teeth pulling experience. EWAR is out of hand and flying a drone boat is just a hassle, you basically have to babysit your drones and even then they have a tendency to pop faster that you can recall.

So I ask you: Why the drastic changes and why change it like this? Where did you get your data from that this would be the best way? Why have you re-balanced NPC AI without the rest of the PVE changes that it was obviously intended for?

*Puts flame retardant suit on*


They got the idea for 2+ years of it working wonderfully in wormholes and also from the fact that there basically wasn't any "intelligence" at ALL in the old AI.

Sorry if you can only deal with utterly terrible braindead npcs and very slightly harder ones make you upset :(


I never said that. Like a few others in this thread you seem to only look at certain sentences without reading the whole thing.

I never complained about the difficulty. I want smarter NPC. You want the number of the remedial English assistant aswell? There is some serious lack of comprehension in this thread...
Sekhmet Snotra
Rattium Incorporated
#30 - 2013-01-25 13:43:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Sekhmet Snotra
From what I can tell, the new AI is much better for some droneboats than the old one. Try using sentries instead of heavies, So far I have only noticed the elite cruisers occasionally shooting them, and they have enough hp to last quite well.

The only downside to the new AI that I see is that it is much more difficult to bring newbs into your missions, as they will be shot a lot more than they used to.

I personally don't really care about the AI change, as it doesn't really affect how rattlesnakes work...
MainDrain
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2013-01-25 13:48:20 UTC
I think the issue about taking new players into your mission is a fair one! we used to help people kill dagan, then let them join us for a couple of missions to boost their wallets and standings

Its not to much risk to bring them in
Baron Dmitri Harkonnen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#32 - 2013-01-25 13:57:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Baron Dmitri Harkonnen
Sekhmet Snotra wrote:
From what I can tell, the new AI is much better for some droneboats than the old one. Try using sentries instead of heavies, So far I have only noticed the elite cruisers occasionally shooting them, and they have enough hp to last quite well.

The only downside to the new AI that I see is that it is much more difficult to bring newbs into your missions, as they will be shot a lot more than they used to.

I personally don't really care about the AI change, as it doesn't really affect how rattlesnakes work...


So you're saying instead of all drones being viable, only sentry are now? Is this an improvement for you?
Frying Doom
#33 - 2013-01-25 14:01:39 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Frankly about time the NPCs stopped acting like clay pigeons.

Yes you have to actually be at your computer now to make piles of isk, Oh the HorrorLol


That's simply not true at all. The change makes AFK mssionins and such EASIER. Before I had to put medium remote reps on a permatank Domi (5 of them, one for each drone) to AFK a mission.

Not I just use a single ECM burst to keep aggro plus a single small remote rep orr nos (directed at a targeted drone) to keep full grid aggro on the domi. Haven't lost a sentry drone in weeks while still not sitting at the computer.

That sounds more like the AI needs a tweek in relation to sentries, than anything else.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#34 - 2013-01-25 14:06:52 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Frankly about time the NPCs stopped acting like clay pigeons.

Yes you have to actually be at your computer now to make piles of isk, Oh the HorrorLol


That's simply not true at all. The change makes AFK mssionins and such EASIER. Before I had to put medium remote reps on a permatank Domi (5 of them, one for each drone) to AFK a mission.

Not I just use a single ECM burst to keep aggro plus a single small remote rep orr nos (directed at a targeted drone) to keep full grid aggro on the domi. Haven't lost a sentry drone in weeks while still not sitting at the computer.

That sounds more like the AI needs a tweek in relation to sentries, than anything else.



Nope, it's how the AI Threat Management System works, it's the fundamental core of the New AI.
Darth Khasei
Wavestar Business Ventures Inc.
#35 - 2013-01-25 15:08:40 UTC
Respect. Cool

The real disappointment for me has been the lack of improvements in the drone handling interface. Someone had come up the brilliant idea with pictures of a modular type control interface just like other modules for drones.

IMHO, there is no way in the world that CCP should have changed the NPC AI without changing the drone control interface and fixing the missions to suit the new AI.

Yes, the fact that they did not do it this way puts players in the adapt or die, HTFU position that we ALL are use to and deal with daily without exception.

Having said that, it was still done poorly and should have been done better since these things were brought to CCP's attention early on in the beta process AND CCP acknowledged the problems mentioned by OP, yet decided not to address them before rolling the new AI. Certainly not the best way to have done it.
Whitehound
#36 - 2013-01-25 15:35:58 UTC
Baron Dmitri Harkonnen wrote:
@Whitehound - Have you not noticed some of the insane EWAR against certain factions? Like 15+ ships sensor dampening you or perma jamming? Quite a few including myself have.

I have noticed it and I solve it by choosing the right ship for the task. The Blockade, L4, Serpentis, is one of such missions and either do I use a Dominix with lots of drone DPS or a Megathron with blasters+MWD. Especially with the Blaster Megathron, and when you shred the NPCs at 4000m-6000m in close range, is this extremely fun. You then hardly notice the damps. It is a challenge.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Noriko Satomi
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2013-01-25 15:52:52 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Frankly about time the NPCs stopped acting like clay pigeons.

Yes you have to actually be at your computer now to make piles of isk, Oh the HorrorLol


That's simply not true at all. The change makes AFK mssionins and such EASIER. Before I had to put medium remote reps on a permatank Domi (5 of them, one for each drone) to AFK a mission.

Not I just use a single ECM burst to keep aggro plus a single small remote rep orr nos (directed at a targeted drone) to keep full grid aggro on the domi. Haven't lost a sentry drone in weeks while still not sitting at the computer.

* Fits cloaky

You mission where, exactly?
Ildryn
IDLE INTENTIONS
#38 - 2013-01-25 15:59:31 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Large Drones WILL die now without fail. Useless utterly.

This was not a well thought out change at all.


Are Sentries small now?


@Baron Dmitri Harkonnen Post with your main. Otherwise your experience is in question.
Newt Rondanse
Magnificent Mayhem Mining
#39 - 2013-01-25 16:10:45 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
MainDrain wrote:
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Azitek wrote:

I dunno, it sounds like you're complaining about difficulty to me.



Concerning drones, it's beyond difficulty. 100% chance of death for them. That's an issue.


If you lose 100% of your drones you are doing it wrong! I will lose on average 2-3 small drones per day (that could be up to 6 hours running mission) Larger drones are more at Risk but you if you take out all the cruisers with guns and set the heavies on the BS you are generally ok. I tend to loose a few more of them per day than the smaller drones, but mainly thats due to lack of attention



Obviously you have not done Level IV missions lately.

Battleships alone on a field will now target and destroy your Large Drones now long before they can get back to their bay.

Eliminating frigs and cruisers stops nothing.

Edit: and with full attention onscreen. What a stupid, snarky thing to inject into your post.

Large drones were inappropriate tools for most L4 missions before the AI change, as they take too long to move between targets, and in many missions required careful aggro management anyway as they would go for spawn triggers and pull in remote groups that were outside range for your main ship.

Now they are worse, and you're complaining instead of using a more appropriate tool?

The rules change, learn to adapt.
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#40 - 2013-01-25 16:14:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Kahega Amielden
Game design is not a democracy, nor should it be. Some of the best changes EVE has ever had have come with rigorous backlash from the community.

CCP does take into account player feedback. You see it every patch with them proposing changes, getting feedback based on testing on Singularity, and changing their plans. The reason so many people don't notice it is that CCP takes into account well-reasoned arguments and intelligent dialogue, not random whining.


Quote:
It's like a select few of you have this opinion on what EVE PVE should be and screw everyone else who thinks otherwise. You want it to be more like PVP but if people wanted that then...wouldn't they go and just PVP? Why are you forcing these changes when all the threads on the matter say no thank you.


Game design is not a democracy. EVE's traditional PVE (missions, ratting) are ******* awful by any real standard. There are few games that have any sort of mission/quest/whatever system that's actually less interesting than what exists in EVE.

Quote:
Not only that but it's broken. I mean it's doable but it's a teeth pulling experience. EWAR is out of hand and flying a drone boat is just a hassle, you basically have to babysit your drones and even then they have a tendency to pop faster that you can recall.


NPC ewar is, last I read, being looked at and has already been nerfed once. It isn't going away though, and yes, that means you might have to refit for some missions. Drones after the change are really not that bad. I fly a Gila for exploration and have literally no damage source outside of my drones and have not had any major problems. You just need to be careful about it (ie consider using faster drones, fly a ship that can stay closer to said drones).

Quote:
Battleships alone on a field will now target and destroy your Large Drones now long before they can get back to their bay.


Pro tip: You don't need to be 50km away from your heavy drones that travel less than 1 km/s. Flying a Gila for lowsec exploration the only time I have ever lost my heavy drones is when they got aggro from a 90% webbing officer spewing torps.