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EVE's summer expansion better focus on sovereignty
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SmilingVagrant
Doomheim
#281 - 2013-01-25 05:12:05 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:

The force with the greater numbers will still have the numerical advantage, but the home team will have the shortest distance to send their reinforcements.


The home team already has an amazing advantage. Short formups, fast reships/reinforces and if you prepack the system with a capfleet and cynojam it, you pretty much just pressed the "I win" button. Sure a determined enemy can get past it, but they are going to pay for it in a lot of dead spaceships.

The thing that you don't understand is that 95% of the coalitions kicked out of space in Eve were killed through demoralization tactics. Not killing spaceships.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#282 - 2013-01-25 05:14:03 UTC
SmilingVagrant wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:

The force with the greater numbers will still have the numerical advantage, but the home team will have the shortest distance to send their reinforcements.


The home team already has an amazing advantage. Short formups, fast reships/reinforces and if you prepack the system with a capfleet and cynojam it, you pretty much just pressed the "I win" button. Sure a determined enemy can get past it, but they are going to pay for it in a lot of dead spaceships.

The thing that you don't understand is that 95% of the coalitions kicked out of space in Eve were killed through demoralization tactics. Not killing spaceships.


Psychological warfare is the best type of warfare.

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SmilingVagrant
Doomheim
#283 - 2013-01-25 05:24:23 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
SmilingVagrant wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:

The force with the greater numbers will still have the numerical advantage, but the home team will have the shortest distance to send their reinforcements.


The home team already has an amazing advantage. Short formups, fast reships/reinforces and if you prepack the system with a capfleet and cynojam it, you pretty much just pressed the "I win" button. Sure a determined enemy can get past it, but they are going to pay for it in a lot of dead spaceships.

The thing that you don't understand is that 95% of the coalitions kicked out of space in Eve were killed through demoralization tactics. Not killing spaceships.


Psychological warfare is the best type of warfare.


"People of RISE!"

http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/69125

RIP RoyofCA
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#284 - 2013-01-25 05:27:31 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:


Currently a small alliance when attacking a close neighbor has to worry about every blue they have no matter where they happen to be on the map. How could that be any worse if power projection was nerfed?


Guess what the small alliance's friends have a much harder time than the large alliance because they have less resources with which to cope with the power projection nerf. Power project would let said small alliance get friends from farther away.

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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#285 - 2013-01-25 07:02:35 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
Currently a small alliance when attacking a close neighbor has to worry about every blue they have no matter where they happen to be on the map. How could that be any worse if power projection was nerfed?

Guess what the small alliance's friends have a much harder time than the large alliance because they have less resources with which to cope with the power projection nerf. Power project would let said small alliance get friends from farther away.

But what if they don't want to have any friends, for example they are a ~solo player~

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#286 - 2013-01-25 07:11:52 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
Currently a small alliance when attacking a close neighbor has to worry about every blue they have no matter where they happen to be on the map. How could that be any worse if power projection was nerfed?

Guess what the small alliance's friends have a much harder time than the large alliance because they have less resources with which to cope with the power projection nerf. Power project would let said small alliance get friends from farther away.

But what if they don't want to have any friends, for example they are a ~solo player~


They should not be bitching about what some people with friends can do if they don't want to put the effort into getting friends.

But then again, it's a video game on the internet. Why would people try to make friends right...
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#287 - 2013-01-25 07:38:47 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
As demonstrated by the averted war between the CFC and the HBC, two coalitions who have been itching to shoot at each other for months, sov mechanics need to be fixed. We want battles, exploding ships, and goodfights, but these are becoming increasingly rare as more people get tired of the current sov mechanics.


Kill the blue donut napfest.

Watch battles break out.

Just saying.

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#288 - 2013-01-25 08:14:32 UTC
Asuka Solo wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
As demonstrated by the averted war between the CFC and the HBC, two coalitions who have been itching to shoot at each other for months, sov mechanics need to be fixed. We want battles, exploding ships, and goodfights, but these are becoming increasingly rare as more people get tired of the current sov mechanics.


Kill the blue donut napfest.

Watch battles break out.

Just saying.

You can't have massive battles without either shooting structures or prearranging things in ways that feel incredibly forced and awkward.

We have a NIP. That means we'll get skirmishes here and there. But no large fleet battles.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#289 - 2013-01-25 09:09:47 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:


Currently a small alliance when attacking a close neighbor has to worry about every blue they have no matter where they happen to be on the map. How could that be any worse if power projection was nerfed?


Guess what the small alliance's friends have a much harder time than the large alliance because they have less resources with which to cope with the power projection nerf. Power project would let said small alliance get friends from farther away.

Look how weak and transparent your argument is.

Enough with pretending like you care about the little guy. You don't. What you do care about is saying anything you possibly can to keep power projection exactly the way it is. Because you can move incredibly fast across the game in minutes is the very reason for the giant blue null we have now. And you wave your little arranged skirmish flag in the air like it is war. It is nothing more than harmless pillow fight.

Human nature is to see safety. No one is arguing that. It translates very well into this game. What is absurd is players are seeking safety in massive numbers, not from neighboring enemies, but from enemies that reside on the OTHER SIDE of the map. This causes a domino effect on what is needed for safety.

The time bottle neck on power projection NEEDS to be restored if this game is to become fun, exciting and dynamic again. Who cares if CCP roles out a completely new sov system if everyone can be anywhere in the game in minutes. You complain about structure grinding, yet don't ask why so many hit points were added to them. They were not designed for smaller battles with warring neighbors a few systems away. They were designed with massive coalitions in mind.

So there you have it. Victim of your own success if you will. You created this mess. You are responsible for this ****** sov system. The answer to fixing all of this is restoring the time bottle neck in power projection, but you are scared. Scared because you know that if you had to defend a pocket of space on your own and could not rely on blues who live across the galaxy to aid you that moment, you would be taken out with the trash.

Anyways, enjoy the current sov system. You made it this way.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#290 - 2013-01-25 09:44:15 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
Look how weak and transparent your argument is.

Enough with pretending like you care about the little guy. You don't. What you do care about is saying anything you possibly can to keep power projection exactly the way it is.

Look how weak and transparent your argument is.

Enough with pretending like you care about the little guy. You don't. What you do care about is saying anything you possibly can to nerf power projection in what you think will hurt the large alliances, even if it hurts the small alliances more.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Dave Stark
#291 - 2013-01-25 09:46:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Marlona Sky wrote:
Anyways, enjoy the current sov system. You made it this way.


actually, ccp did, y'know, it being their game and all...

unless, of course you meant sov situation, which is an entirely different and irrelevant thing.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#292 - 2013-01-25 09:49:57 UTC
Marlona Sky once again ignoring the fact that defense has nothing to do with power projection seeing as you have a space of usually about a day in which to move ships, in other words more than enough time to move any kind of ship capital or otherwise across the map with any reasonable nerf.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Dave Stark
#293 - 2013-01-25 09:59:41 UTC
let's take a look at a "time bottleneck" which, i assume means adding some kind of delay between each jump a capital ship makes?

let's assume a 6 hour cooldown for the sake of having a cooldown.
well the large entities can send say, 5 caps to do something, the small entity sends 5 caps to counter it. now for the next 6 hours the large entity can move their other 95 caps around with impuny as all of the small entity's ships are on "cooldown".

this just means that large entities waste a few cap ships to distract the small entity, then for the next 6 hours are able to steamroll them as the small entity ends up having to defend itself from cap ships, without cap ship support.

remind me how this benefits small entities?
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#294 - 2013-01-25 10:00:55 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Marlona Sky once again ignoring the fact that defense has nothing to do with power projection seeing as you have a space of usually about a day in which to move ships, in other words more than enough time to move any kind of ship capital or otherwise across the map with any reasonable nerf.

I think moving a coalitions entire fleet to one pocket of space to fight off a small alliance carving out a section of space for themselves would be a grave mistake. Leaving borders unprotected? Territory unchecked? That would be asking for everyone to take kidney shots at you if your guard was down focusing entirely on one thing.

Remember, you would not be able to zip back and forth all over the map in minutes. Blink
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#295 - 2013-01-25 10:03:35 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
let's take a look at a "time bottleneck" which, i assume means adding some kind of delay between each jump a capital ship makes?

let's assume a 6 hour cooldown for the sake of having a cooldown.
well the large entities can send say, 5 caps to do something, the small entity sends 5 caps to counter it. now for the next 6 hours the large entity can move their other 95 caps around with impuny as all of the small entity's ships are on "cooldown".

this just means that large entities waste a few cap ships to distract the small entity, then for the next 6 hours are able to steamroll them as the small entity ends up having to defend itself from cap ships, without cap ship support.

remind me how this benefits small entities?

And what about the space those 95 caps came from? Who is guarding that while they are gone?
Dave Stark
#296 - 2013-01-25 10:04:32 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Marlona Sky once again ignoring the fact that defense has nothing to do with power projection seeing as you have a space of usually about a day in which to move ships, in other words more than enough time to move any kind of ship capital or otherwise across the map with any reasonable nerf.

I think moving a coalitions entire fleet to one pocket of space to fight off a small alliance carving out a section of space for themselves would be a grave mistake. Leaving borders unprotected? Territory unchecked? That would be asking for everyone to take kidney shots at you if your guard was down focusing entirely on one thing.

Remember, you would not be able to zip back and forth all over the map in minutes. Blink


but at the same time, you don't need your whole cap fleet in order to eliminate a smaller entity if you're a larger entity, so you won't be leaving borders unprotected or territory unchecked, you will still have your own space guarded while still having a numerical advantage, even if you only bring cap ships to equal theirs and then use subcaps to drive home the "power in numbers" aspect of your advantage.

failing that, if people are unwilling to deploy cap ships for fear of leaving their home undefended then nobody will attack each other for fear of being invaded and lead to a more obscene and risk averse 0.0 which is a situation nobody wants.
Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
#297 - 2013-01-25 10:05:06 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
Look how weak and transparent your argument is.

Enough with pretending like you care about the little guy. You don't. What you do care about is saying anything you possibly can to keep power projection exactly the way it is.

Look how weak and transparent your argument is.

Enough with pretending like you care about the little guy. You don't. What you do care about is saying anything you possibly can to nerf power projection in what you think will hurt the large alliances, even if it hurts the small alliances more.

C'mon James, don't play the dumb guy here..

Everybody here knows that power projection is a big thing - even CCP admitted it 3 years ago.

And what would be bad about some cool/rich/smart guys who can bring the numbers sitting close to LS/HS in their systems and the poor-mans-ally has to live in the outskirts, nibbling along at the minimum (as long as they have fun)?
At least they would be able to sit out there and only fear skirmishes from their neighbors and not half of the map having a drive-by within half an hour.

Also, who is to say CCP couldn't beef living quality up a bit while they do this, so those poor sobs can actually live out there (ya know, outpost/industry changes for NS) so they don't have to rely on HS so much as everybody out there does now (which is what JBs/JDs are needed now for)?

Currently you got big ass ships (fleets of them) and can move over the map faster than an interceptor. Speedscaling is completely fubar in EVE since the introduction of JDs/JBs.
Dave Stark
#298 - 2013-01-25 10:06:00 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
let's take a look at a "time bottleneck" which, i assume means adding some kind of delay between each jump a capital ship makes?

let's assume a 6 hour cooldown for the sake of having a cooldown.
well the large entities can send say, 5 caps to do something, the small entity sends 5 caps to counter it. now for the next 6 hours the large entity can move their other 95 caps around with impuny as all of the small entity's ships are on "cooldown".

this just means that large entities waste a few cap ships to distract the small entity, then for the next 6 hours are able to steamroll them as the small entity ends up having to defend itself from cap ships, without cap ship support.

remind me how this benefits small entities?

And what about the space those 95 caps came from? Who is guarding that while they are gone?


the other 100 cap ships the large entity has. they are a large entity, they have more ships and people and stuff.

or if you don't buy that, then leave 50 of the 95 ships at home and just buttfuck the small entity with 45 cap ships. surely 45 is enough to wipe out a group of players that can only field 5 caps, right?
Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
#299 - 2013-01-25 10:20:14 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
*snip*

failing that, if people are unwilling to deploy cap ships for fear of leaving their home undefended then nobody will attack each other for fear of being invaded and lead to a more obscene and risk averse 0.0 which is a situation nobody wants.

..you're sure about that? Lol

What about small gangs that roam and want some fun?
Don't you think those will come and have a go at that pinata?
Don't forget, they know that the answer won't be a hotdrop..

Sounds like a lot of fun to me!

And one meta level higher.. say ally A hires some mercs to sting ally B a bit here and a bit there, meanwhile staging something bigger over there.

This can escalate/deescalate slower than what you got now, so people might be more willing to 'risk' at least something.

And as soon as the destruction speed of those big ass ships with that big ass DPS is determined by movement and not how fast they can tear through structures, CCP can reduce the HPs on all of that stuff as the timers won't matter that much anymore.
This means, you got your DPS monsters crawling through space, committed to a task (take sov) and can't be home for tea - defending now something makes sense to the attacked, as the force that appears is it, there is no 300 supers waiting for their cyno to join the mess.
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#300 - 2013-01-25 10:29:16 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
let's take a look at a "time bottleneck" which, i assume means adding some kind of delay between each jump a capital ship makes?

let's assume a 6 hour cooldown for the sake of having a cooldown.
well the large entities can send say, 5 caps to do something, the small entity sends 5 caps to counter it. now for the next 6 hours the large entity can move their other 95 caps around with impuny as all of the small entity's ships are on "cooldown".

this just means that large entities waste a few cap ships to distract the small entity, then for the next 6 hours are able to steamroll them as the small entity ends up having to defend itself from cap ships, without cap ship support.

remind me how this benefits small entities?

And what about the space those 95 caps came from? Who is guarding that while they are gone?


the other 100 cap ships the large entity has. they are a large entity, they have more ships and people and stuff.

or if you don't buy that, then leave 50 of the 95 ships at home and just buttfuck the small entity with 45 cap ships. surely 45 is enough to wipe out a group of players that can only field 5 caps, right?

Well sending half is a strategy. Weakens your overall capital presence, but would hopefully send a message to any would be attackers.

Bottom line is, you have to make a calculated strategic decision. How many can we afford to send? Will our defenses hold in other parts of our space long enough for them to come back.

How much decision making goes into, "Send everything and they will be back home in time for tea." Bottom line is, even though as bleak as it sounds, those 5 enemy caps would stand a better chance against 45 instead of the 95. Not to mention it could open an opportunity for some other unrelated action in the now weakened territory to be exploited by a different attacker.

The game is simply too small. I'm not saying to remove jump drives or bridges or anything like that. My point is no sov system, no matter how much time CCP, CSM or players spend on trying to improve or perform a complete revamp; none of it will matter and will be just as bad as the current, if not worse - if the time bottleneck is not put back into place for power projection.