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Dread blapping

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TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#181 - 2013-01-24 16:25:11 UTC
Hidden Fremen wrote:
AdoudelA wrote:
Hi all!

When I was reading today the CSM minutes I came by this part:

"Nearing the end of the meeting, Two step brought up the issue of Dread blapping in wormhole space.
This sparked an informal discussion to determine if the issue was the Dreads themselves, or just a
byproduct of wormhole combat. No meaningful solution was devised in a short time, but Fozzie added
that he would keep an eye on Dread blapping in wormhole space in particular."

So my question would be: What is Dread blapping precisely and why is it something that must be looked at?

Thank for the answers in advance.


Anyway... Thank you, AdoudelA, for sharing this observation. Two Step greatly misrepresented the wspace community and might have gotten HIS way unchallenged. This threadnought is deadnought.


Two Step representing only himself and a few people he knows who share his view rather than w-space as a whole? What a shocker.
Omen Nihilo
Omen Holdings
#182 - 2013-01-24 22:40:45 UTC
It's clear from this thread that it's not just Two Step and "a few people he knows." I don't know him at all but I agree with him. There are others (e.g. Chitsa Jason, Hathrul, etc.) who have no association with K162 or Two Step, but they also agree with his concern.

Also, Two Step merely "brought up the issue" according to the minutes. Is he supposed to wait until he hears unanimous support for an idea before bringing it to CCP for discussion?

You people are so fickle...
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#183 - 2013-01-24 23:54:46 UTC
It's a wh mass issue. You can dress it up however you like but at the end of the day it comes down to some of the folks from some of the larger wh groups can't play 'epic wh battles' like they want to. It's not about dread blapping, ECM being chance based, moros is over powered - it isn't any of that stuff. You take away dread blapping and the same problem will be there - it'll just have a different 'issue' (archon over powered, bhaals neut too much - could be anything).

The "issue" being brought up boils down to the big kids can't figure out how to play big kid games in wh. You can't - there are mass and time limits on your connections. Just because you want something doesn't mean it should be.

My comment/thoughts on the infamous 'many folks are concerned about the dread blapping issue' - There are no small wh groups complaining they can't invade multi dread fortified wh and get a good fight. Big boys want big fights, but I think it's safe to say that most of the wh groups active in wh space don't even have the numbers and resources to even be in a position to go into these systems and look for the fight that some folks are upset about not having. It's not a MOST or MANY issue. Let's deal with reality here - only a few of the larger groups have the ability to even have these fights. It's a niche 'issue' at best, AND even though I feel wh space is the center of the eve universe - it isn't. Add up all the dreads in the game and 30 in a wh is prolly a pretty tiny percentage. So I'll go out on a limb here and say that this concern of many, when looked at over the whole of eve dread pilots and more than likely even over the whole of wh based dread pilots isn't actually many. I would have to see evidence of a large and if not large then at least cross cutting discussion of this before I'll accept the 'many' justification. It would have to predate the CSM meeting where this all got started. I have a feeling if it actually existed - we would have already seen it. TLDR - many have this dread blapping concern was a poor choice of words.

I am fickle, but I can also do basic math and understand both percentages and the term 'many'. Two Step is a CSM representative, which is an eve universe public position. He spoke poorly (put whatever meaning you like on that) and folks are taking him to task for it. He doesn't need defending from the noodle lashing he's taking. He knew it was part of the job when he signed up.

I would think the only way he can fight his way out of this is to board a moros and have his 'many' paint and web us for him. A healthy moros blappfest is pretty much his only viable defense at this point. Oh wait...

*disclaimer - I'm making a few points AND trying to get some of you folks to lighten up and smile a bit.

Lost
Two step
Aperture Harmonics
#184 - 2013-01-25 00:07:42 UTC
Ayeson wrote:
Two Step wrote:
Those of us that either field dread fleets or run into them often think this is a problem. How large of a problem is open to some debate, which I am happy to have with folks. If CCP decided to solve the problem, there would also be a chance for people to discuss the potential fix.


As a person who fields and runs into dreads, I would like to state that I don't see any problems currently. I see players adapting to their situation and using the best close range dread for close range applications.

Edit: Sometimes reading something aloud allows for better comprehension.


You don't see any problems? Funny, that isn't what you said 10 days ago on FHC:
Quote:

Also, Refused to fight? We didn't stay with our fleet to engage you in your home system, where you could bring caps and we couldn't, and our connection to our chain was closed by the now-dead moros, and we had no neuts.

(and in a later post)

We much prefer to NOT get raped in someones home hole especially after we've already won the fight, we've had it happen to us before, and much prefer it to not happen again.


You then linked this BR, which is a damn good example of dread blapping, especially your own killmail

I'd also quote some of your corpmates here, but I have run out of quotes. I think it is a little disingenuous to go write an article about how dreads never blap or something when you yourself were killed recently using the same method, and fear of that happening again led you to not fight someone.

CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
Messoroz
AQUILA INC
Verge of Collapse
#185 - 2013-01-25 00:17:45 UTC
Two step wrote:
Ayeson wrote:
Two Step wrote:
Those of us that either field dread fleets or run into them often think this is a problem. How large of a problem is open to some debate, which I am happy to have with folks. If CCP decided to solve the problem, there would also be a chance for people to discuss the potential fix.


As a person who fields and runs into dreads, I would like to state that I don't see any problems currently. I see players adapting to their situation and using the best close range dread for close range applications.

Edit: Sometimes reading something aloud allows for better comprehension.


You don't see any problems? Funny, that isn't what you said 10 days ago on FHC:
Quote:

Also, Refused to fight? We didn't stay with our fleet to engage you in your home system, where you could bring caps and we couldn't, and our connection to our chain was closed by the now-dead moros, and we had no neuts.

(and in a later post)

We much prefer to NOT get raped in someones home hole especially after we've already won the fight, we've had it happen to us before, and much prefer it to not happen again.


You then linked this BR, which is a damn good example of dread blapping, especially your own killmail

I'd also quote some of your corpmates here, but I have run out of quotes. I think it is a little disingenuous to go write an article about how dreads never blap or something when you yourself were killed recently using the same method, and fear of that happening again led you to not fight someone.


The ayeson on failheap is not the same ayeson on these forums. You are silly to assume otherwise.
Qvar Dar'Zanar
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#186 - 2013-01-25 02:58:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Qvar Dar'Zanar
Rigth. I would like to ask you Two Step, as candidate to the CSM8, about your position on this matter with some questions. Direct and clear answers would be very apreciated.

1. This problem hasn't many posible solutions. Keeping in mind that WH space isn't the place where most dreads lie, how would you solve this?

2. This is a problem... For who? I'm pretty sure that none of the guys living with me would think about this if I asked them about wh life problems.

3. Will the solution mean a harder time protection one's home system? Sure, for big guys like you it's easy to defend even without blap. For smaller corps, dreadblap may be the edge over powerful attackers.

4. Would have you included capital ships in wormholes at all, if it was your choice?

5. Where did the bad dread touc... Joking, no more questions :P
Zara Nomis
Doomheim
#187 - 2013-01-25 03:15:08 UTC
Qvar Dar'Zanar wrote:
Rigth. I would like to ask you Two Step, as candidate to the CSM8

he isnt running for csm8. sometimes i wonder if you unistas live in the same eve universe Roll
Incindir Mauser
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#188 - 2013-01-25 03:29:30 UTC
Two step wrote:
My issue with dread blapping is that there isn't a counter to it other than "bring more stuff". I am fine with dreads killing caps and battleships, but if I show up in small sig cruisers, dreads shouldn't be dominant.

FYI, this isn't something that I just came up with out of thin air, this has been a frequent complaint I have heard from many different corps and alliances. What makes EVE PVP great is that you should always be able to counter a specific fleet setup without just bringing 2x the numbers. That isn't the case with dreads + webs/painters.



I don't really think this is so much a problem with dreads in holes, more that the Moros has really good tracking. And I'm really on the fence with having cap ships in wormholes to begin with. Sleeper escalations could be tied to number of BS's on grid instead of warping caps.

I mean really there is a whole bunch of stuff that's broken in WH's, living out of a PoS's is a pain in the ass, goofy **** like not being able to assemble Strat cruisers in a hole. I could go on, but we've had this conversation before.

Dread blapping is probably the worst offender next to blueball flashcrashing nullbears setting up farming ops in WH space.

Messoroz
AQUILA INC
Verge of Collapse
#189 - 2013-01-25 05:22:22 UTC
Incindir Mauser wrote:
Two step wrote:
My issue with dread blapping is that there isn't a counter to it other than "bring more stuff". I am fine with dreads killing caps and battleships, but if I show up in small sig cruisers, dreads shouldn't be dominant.

FYI, this isn't something that I just came up with out of thin air, this has been a frequent complaint I have heard from many different corps and alliances. What makes EVE PVP great is that you should always be able to counter a specific fleet setup without just bringing 2x the numbers. That isn't the case with dreads + webs/painters.



I don't really think this is so much a problem with dreads in holes, more that the Moros has really good tracking. And I'm really on the fence with having cap ships in wormholes to begin with. Sleeper escalations could be tied to number of BS's on grid instead of warping caps.

I mean really there is a whole bunch of stuff that's broken in WH's, living out of a PoS's is a pain in the ass, goofy **** like not being able to assemble Strat cruisers in a hole. I could go on, but we've had this conversation before.

Dread blapping is probably the worst offender next to blueball flashcrashing nullbears setting up farming ops in WH space.



There are no farming ops in wspace. WHs run out of sites fast preventing this. Propaganda is bad mmmk?
Winthorp
#190 - 2013-01-25 05:30:43 UTC
Messoroz wrote:
There are no farming ops in wspace. WHs run out of sites fast preventing this. Propaganda is bad mmmk?



Are you high today?
G0hme
Illusion of Flight
#191 - 2013-01-25 05:55:40 UTC
Winthorp wrote:
Messoroz wrote:
There are no farming ops in wspace. WHs run out of sites fast preventing this. Propaganda is bad mmmk?



Are you high today?



Sites doesnt despawn in SSCs hole. Appearently.

There are no farming ops in wspace, only 4 day field trips.

Shook Eelm's hand at Fanfest 2012

Shook CCP Soundwave's hand at Fanfest 2013

Got NPC API removed from Wormhole Space.
Borlag Crendraven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#192 - 2013-01-25 06:42:22 UTC
G0hme wrote:
Winthorp wrote:
Messoroz wrote:
There are no farming ops in wspace. WHs run out of sites fast preventing this. Propaganda is bad mmmk?



Are you high today?



Sites doesnt despawn in SSCs hole. Appearently.

There are no farming ops in wspace, only 4 day field trips.


It's not really about sites despawning. Think outside the scope of what SSC and KILL do, about what the majority of WH dwellers do; live in a lower class hole and farm their dynamic. Once it's sucked dry of sites, they move on to the next one. This happens every single day. Heck, just by reading this very same forum alone you'll see people talking how it's not worth running sites in your home system at all, and that the farm is what it's all about. That's the other side of the coin, when they don't know what it's like when you have goodies like capital escalations.
Incindir Mauser
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#193 - 2013-01-25 10:00:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Incindir Mauser
Quote:
There are no farming ops in wspace. WHs run out of sites fast preventing this. Propaganda is bad mmmk?


That's why we evicted (temporarily) a CFC alt corp from a hole last weekend because it wasn't a farm. It wasn't 3 guys on 16 accounts setting up a farm. No sir. Nope. No blueballing there. No intentions of chain-rolling their static with dreads and farming ladars with a metric shitton of Ventures. I was totally wrong. We had lots and lots of fights all weekend. They didn't try to sneak a cyno out to call their null buddies in...Nope. No sir. Not at all. They didn't mass self-destruct ships they couldn't log out in... Nope. It was gudfites all the time.

Totally legit WH PvP corp.

That's why Exhale did the same thing to them about a month earlier. Because it wasn't a handful of nullbears with multiple accounts farming WH isk. It was gudfites. Them bears finally realized how terrible null life is and wanted to turn over a new leaf in W-space and become a corp that has a strategy other than logoffski, hot drop o'clock, or drakeblob.

Yup. Total propaganda.
Terrorfrodo
Interbus Universal
#194 - 2013-01-25 10:17:22 UTC
Every POS that is set up with the sole intent of doing pve against sleepers and not do pvp is a farm op, whether that POS stands for 1 day or 5 years.

.
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#195 - 2013-01-25 10:23:33 UTC  |  Edited by: TheGunslinger42
I don't think any amount of nerfing dreads would prevent the stand offs you get when two big entities open into each other or be more conducive to goodfites. I don't even understand why people think "dread blapping" is what causes these stand offs, which is why I disagree with it being raised as dreads being an issue "many" people are concerned about.

It's all about the home field advantage provided by mass limits.

You could disallow dreads to even target anything below battleship size and you'd still end up with these big stand offs, but instead of the defenders bringing dreads to quickly wipe out t3s, they'd instead bring more archons to allow them to tank everything the other side could push through the hole. Then instead of "baw dread blapping means no good fites" it'd be "baw capital reps means no good fites".

Size is the only thing that matters, ladies, so discussing nerfing how well he uses it seems a little pointless.
Borlag Crendraven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#196 - 2013-01-25 11:02:22 UTC
Have to agree with Gunslinger. It's not about the dreads or the archons, it's about being able to counter the other fleet. Take out their support for the capitals, be it with ECM, neuts, damps or sheer dps and you'll effectively take out the dreads as well. No amount of nerfs will change this one bit, all you accomplish with those is that people might stop flying the nerfed boats entirely and move on to the next best thing.

I could do what many others have done and start linking battlereports of how an inferior number of capitals has beaten the superior one with nothing but smart tactics and the right support cast, but it'd be just as pointless as this whole argument. There's nothing wrong with dreads or the moros overall, all that needs to be done is bring the nid and the phoenix into line with the others. Moros and Rev are balanced pretty much like they should be, one being the uber dps monster and the other being the uber tank monster. Trying to force them to be in the same mold would just be silly.
Rhavas
Noble Sentiments
Second Empire.
#197 - 2013-01-25 18:28:52 UTC
Borlag Crendraven wrote:
Have to agree with Gunslinger. It's not about the dreads or the archons, it's about being able to counter the other fleet. Take out their support for the capitals, be it with ECM, neuts, damps or sheer dps and you'll effectively take out the dreads as well. No amount of nerfs will change this one bit, all you accomplish with those is that people might stop flying the nerfed boats entirely and move on to the next best thing.

I could do what many others have done and start linking battlereports of how an inferior number of capitals has beaten the superior one with nothing but smart tactics and the right support cast, but it'd be just as pointless as this whole argument. There's nothing wrong with dreads or the moros overall, all that needs to be done is bring the nid and the phoenix into line with the others. Moros and Rev are balanced pretty much like they should be, one being the uber dps monster and the other being the uber tank monster. Trying to force them to be in the same mold would just be silly.


This. Make the Naglfar worthwhile, tweak the Rev and call it a day on this whole thread.

Author of Interstellar Privateer Shattered Planets, Wormholes and Game Commentary
Klarion Sythis
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#198 - 2013-01-25 19:02:50 UTC
and just take the Phoenix out back and shoot it.
Dr Agropoly
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#199 - 2013-01-25 19:15:56 UTC
Incindir Mauser wrote:
Quote:
There are no farming ops in wspace. WHs run out of sites fast preventing this. Propaganda is bad mmmk?


That's why we evicted (temporarily) a CFC alt corp from a hole last weekend because it wasn't a farm. It wasn't 3 guys on 16 accounts setting up a farm. No sir. Nope. No blueballing there. No intentions of chain-rolling their static with dreads and farming ladars with a metric shitton of Ventures. I was totally wrong. We had lots and lots of fights all weekend. They didn't try to sneak a cyno out to call their null buddies in...Nope. No sir. Not at all. They didn't mass self-destruct ships they couldn't log out in... Nope. It was gudfites all the time.

Totally legit WH PvP corp.

That's why Exhale did the same thing to them about a month earlier. Because it wasn't a handful of nullbears with multiple accounts farming WH isk. It was gudfites. Them bears finally realized how terrible null life is and wanted to turn over a new leaf in W-space and become a corp that has a strategy other than logoffski, hot drop o'clock, or drakeblob.

Yup. Total propaganda.


So you evicted them because they wanted to fight?????
That makes no sense at all.
Casirio
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#200 - 2013-01-25 19:31:01 UTC
Dr Agropoly wrote:
Incindir Mauser wrote:
Quote:
There are no farming ops in wspace. WHs run out of sites fast preventing this. Propaganda is bad mmmk?


That's why we evicted (temporarily) a CFC alt corp from a hole last weekend because it wasn't a farm. It wasn't 3 guys on 16 accounts setting up a farm. No sir. Nope. No blueballing there. No intentions of chain-rolling their static with dreads and farming ladars with a metric shitton of Ventures. I was totally wrong. We had lots and lots of fights all weekend. They didn't try to sneak a cyno out to call their null buddies in...Nope. No sir. Not at all. They didn't mass self-destruct ships they couldn't log out in... Nope. It was gudfites all the time.

Totally legit WH PvP corp.

That's why Exhale did the same thing to them about a month earlier. Because it wasn't a handful of nullbears with multiple accounts farming WH isk. It was gudfites. Them bears finally realized how terrible null life is and wanted to turn over a new leaf in W-space and become a corp that has a strategy other than logoffski, hot drop o'clock, or drakeblob.

Yup. Total propaganda.


So you evicted them because they wanted to fight?????
That makes no sense at all.


I hope your joking... and yeah I feel its our duty as pvp wormhole residents to rid w-space of null bears and farming systems. Yes we did evict a CFC alt corp from a c6 a month or so ago. Glad to see others are doing Bob's work too.