These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Retribution 1.1] Armor Tanking 1.5

First post First post
Author
Sinzor Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#801 - 2013-01-24 19:14:48 UTC
Holly war Shield vs Armor keeps rolling...
But among those graphs of reps per second and HP calculation of LSE and 1600 - I dont see almost none comments about Reactive Armor Hardener.
Do you think it's fine, so no need to worry? Or do you think it's so fail that not even worth considering? Did you even try it - in EFT or in EVE itself?
Apostrof Ahashion
Doomheim
#802 - 2013-01-24 19:32:55 UTC
Sinzor Aumer wrote:
Holly war Shield vs Armor keeps rolling...
But among those graphs of reps per second and HP calculation of LSE and 1600 - I dont see almost none comments about Reactive Armor Hardener.
Do you think it's fine, so no need to worry? Or do you think it's so fail that not even worth considering? Did you even try it - in EFT or in EVE itself?


I did play with it and found it lacking for pvp, there will always be more damage types and module does worse than EANM. I like the idea but i think it needs a lot more work, and i have absolutely no idea how to fix it.
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
#803 - 2013-01-24 19:33:01 UTC
How did we regress from Armor Tanking 2.0 down to 1.5.....? Too much stupidity in the thread?
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#804 - 2013-01-24 19:35:44 UTC
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:
How did we regress from Armor Tanking 2.0 down to 1.5.....? Too much stupidity in the thread?


I think the 2.0 title was giving people the false impression that CCP will try to tie a bow on armor and leave it alone for years after this patch. Which is not even remotely the case, although I can understand the fear.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

fukier
Gallente Federation
#805 - 2013-01-24 19:38:20 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:
How did we regress from Armor Tanking 2.0 down to 1.5.....? Too much stupidity in the thread?


I think the 2.0 title was giving people the false impression that CCP will try to tie a bow on armor and leave it alone for years after this patch. Which is not even remotely the case, although I can understand the fear.


you need to update the op as the AAR discription is wrong as it no longer uses cap booster charges...
At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
Captain Semper
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#806 - 2013-01-24 19:39:44 UTC
Sinzor Aumer wrote:
Holly war Shield vs Armor keeps rolling...
But among those graphs of reps per second and HP calculation of LSE and 1600 - I dont see almost none comments about Reactive Armor Hardener.
Do you think it's fine, so no need to worry? Or do you think it's so fail that not even worth considering? Did you even try it - in EFT or in EVE itself?

Let's be honest. When RAH appear it was terrible (1% per activation 10 sec cycle). Now its better but with ridiculous skill (-10% cycle and -5% cap need) its only useful on BS (and sometimes not even on BS). It eating cap realy fast ( 6\s, for example hardner eat 1,5 cap\s ) and it gives 30\30% after 3 cycle if you are get shots from 2 source. Yeah it works like damage control (no stacking penalty) but with that cap appetite its horrible. I better fit EANM.

Maybe it need redesign? For example it will consume ~30-40 cap per activation with 8 (to 4 if skill 5) sec cycle and gives +10\20\30 (12,5\25\37,5 overheat)% of all resist per activation (not only after you get hit) and after 5 activation it will be shut down for 20 sec.
Or significant increase cap per activation (60-200) and make it free from shut down.

So it will be like invul adaptive for shield but pilot need to track his status for activate it (when he become primary or smth like that. So it require pilot "skill" to manipulate his own survival, not just: "i turn on all my resist becuase they cap stable" ).

Or i dont know. But usual you havnt 15-20 sec for "wait! my resist switching!"
Mund Richard
#807 - 2013-01-24 19:43:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Mund Richard
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:
How did we regress from Armor Tanking 2.0 down to 1.5.....? Too much stupidity in the thread?
I think the 2.0 title was giving people the false impression that CCP will try to tie a bow on armor and leave it alone for years after this patch. Which is not even remotely the case, although I can understand the fear.

Good choice, when I saw the title change that was the feeling I got.
Not that I'd trust anyone with anything, but at least I knew what was meant by it. Roll


Reactive Hardener:
For me it hasn't quite found the sweet spot between the EAMN and explosive hardener/rig.
If I knew for a fact, that my duelist opponent brings either a lolscorch kiter or a Drake, I'd prolly use it there, since the majority of the incoming damage is just one type, but I don't know which.

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.

Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#808 - 2013-01-24 19:50:39 UTC
Sinzor Aumer wrote:
Holly war Shield vs Armor keeps rolling...
But among those graphs of reps per second and HP calculation of LSE and 1600 - I dont see almost none comments about Reactive Armor Hardener.
Do you think it's fine, so no need to worry? Or do you think it's so fail that not even worth considering? Did you even try it - in EFT or in EVE itself?


RAH uses cap, far too much even at lvl5 skill and yet another skill we had to train for something with little use for the average pilot.

You see there's only one kind of Armor tanking that has some sense: buffer one

When it comes to active tanking you find out most of those ships and specially in Gallente lineup have 6 low slots, active armor tank mods are extremely cap hungry and do not cover enough the resist profile so you have to fit plates on top of it. This is where active tanking becomes a lol mix of silly stuff.
Minimal decent resist profile requires at least 1 explo hardener, 2 energized adaptive and a DCU, this makes already 4 slots.
Now you're fitting active tank rigs and decreasing your available PG (aka new drawback), have to fit 1 lol armor rep and eventually new lol AAR.
You haven't added a single plate yet and now you're going to fight with your fitting window to fit your guns in your ship. Those guns eat big chunks of cap when firing...also.

Now instead of fighting with yourself to fit something like that, just pick your 4 med slots armor ship, slap some shield rigs mwd LSE 1 invuln and 1 hardener. Now you have 6 low slots for a DCU 3MFS 2TE or eventually 2MFS 2TE 1nano

You get a decent tank but jesus your dps is just insane (if someone fit armor mods in to his Talos he's an idiot), that's exactly what you need with active armor tank: be light, just enough tank and omgfckin dps with highest tier weapons.

I still have a question for Fozzie, why bring new mods and skills when the very first problem of this tanking mode is it's bad design and philosophy? -why keep trying to patch something wrong from the beginning when the best thing to do it is start it from the scratch?

Give me a reason to not fit shield modules to my ship other than nerf it's slots. Make active armor tanking something you want because your ship is designed for and gives you for your isk.

Isn't enough to see shield Brutix, shield Myrmidons, Shield Megas and Hypes/Domis even frigs being waaaaaaay better shield tanked than armor tanked?
I want my armor ship to be as good as I can make it with shield mods and this is not because shield tanking mods are OP, but because active armor tanking is really really the poor minded mans choice.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne

Jiska Ensa
Estrale Frontiers
#809 - 2013-01-24 20:00:59 UTC
Uh nanite paste is a LOT more expensive than cap booster charges. Is that being addressed in some way?
Jojo Jackson
Dead Red Eye
#810 - 2013-01-24 20:01:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Jojo Jackson
All this brainstorm does not help PvE.

For T1 to T2 (including all named stuff):
If you compare small rep v small booster the results are near equal.
If you compare med rep v med booster the results are near equal.
If you compare large rep v large booster the results are near equal.

But now we have a problem!
Noone uses small booster at frigs, med booster at cruiser/BC or large booster at BS! Everyone ALLWAYS use the oversized moduls!

And suddenly you get a HUGE advanatage by shield boosting over armor rep :(.

And there is a second problem!
Deepspace boosters are by FAR better then deepspace reppers!
Centum A-Type med rep: 468 armor / 12 sec = 39 armor/sec
Pithum A-Type med boost: 228 shield / 3 sec = 76 shield/sec

And as noone fit a med booster at let's say a Tengu but only large boosters this both problems sum up.
Pith A-Type large boost: 312 shield /3.2 sec = 97.8 shield/sec
Pith X-Type large boost: 336 shield/3.2 sec = 105 shield/sec

BEFORE RESITENCES AND SHIP BONIS !!!!!

How can a Legion with usual fitted MED REP (39 armor/sec) compet against Tengus usual fitted LARGE BOOSTER (105 shield/sec) this way?
It is simply IMPOSIBLE to get a armor tank compareble to the values of a shield tank :(.

TL:TR
Problem 1: fitting cost for oversized moduls
Problem 2: pure power of same size shield moduls

Before you bring any new moduls CCP, fix the existing one!!!

Why the hell can't I fitt capital repairs or shield booster on an Orca ... it's an CAPITAL ship!

fukier
Gallente Federation
#811 - 2013-01-24 20:03:08 UTC
Jiska Ensa wrote:
Uh nanite paste is a LOT more expensive than cap booster charges. Is that being addressed in some way?


yes they are going to fix that in its PI production costs
At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
Apostrof Ahashion
Doomheim
#812 - 2013-01-24 20:09:13 UTC
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:

Isn't enough to see shield Brutix, shield Myrmidons, Shield Megas and Hypes/Domis even frigs being waaaaaaay better shield tanked than armor tanked?
I want my armor ship to be as good as I can make it with shield mods and this is not because shield tanking mods are OP, but because active armor tanking is really really the poor minded mans choice.

Dont forget shield Harbingers or dual ASB mission Apocalypse Navy Issue.
Sinzor Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#813 - 2013-01-24 20:10:18 UTC
fukier wrote:
Jiska Ensa wrote:
Uh nanite paste is a LOT more expensive than cap booster charges. Is that being addressed in some way?

yes they are going to fix that in its PI production costs

Wait what? Where was that?

And OMG, it's 3 mil worth of paste in your 100 mil battleship - are you bloody serious?
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#814 - 2013-01-24 20:27:56 UTC
Apostrof Ahashion wrote:
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:

Isn't enough to see shield Brutix, shield Myrmidons, Shield Megas and Hypes/Domis even frigs being waaaaaaay better shield tanked than armor tanked?
I want my armor ship to be as good as I can make it with shield mods and this is not because shield tanking mods are OP, but because active armor tanking is really really the poor minded mans choice.

Dont forget shield Harbingers or dual ASB mission Apocalypse Navy Issue.


Indeed but well Amarr isn't that much affected or at least uses something worthwhile training:resists

Of course not all lineup is a megaton EHP space brick shooting with pulse+scorch at rails range, but the little + that make this kind of tanking interesting is the sum of effective mods/ship bonus/weapon system making this tanking system really shine.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne

Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#815 - 2013-01-24 20:29:13 UTC
Sinzor Aumer wrote:
fukier wrote:
Jiska Ensa wrote:
Uh nanite paste is a LOT more expensive than cap booster charges. Is that being addressed in some way?

yes they are going to fix that in its PI production costs

Wait what? Where was that?

And OMG, it's 3 mil worth of paste in your 100 mil battleship - are you bloody serious?



Please show me where you got that 100M fitted battleship (Gallente/Amarr], I'm buyer for 10 ASAP

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne

Morgan North
Dark-Rising
Wrecking Machine.
#816 - 2013-01-24 20:34:23 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
Cap efficiency per second is a nonsensical concept.

QFT

Unit is HP/(GJ.s) ; GJ.s don't make any sense. That does not represent any real thing.

Armor repair is more cap efficient than shield boost but shield boost have a better burst than armor repair ; mixing those two caracteristics to artifiacialy show one type of tank better than the other is rather dishonnest infact, because that rely on the weight you give to burst versus cap efficiency, which can only be arbitrary.

These change are awesome, and some people should really think about them all. Buffer armor will still be brick, but less than before. And hopefuly, lighter armor buffer will now have a reason to live. But above all, this AAR will be amazing : alowing for effective mix tank (AAR+buffer) or usable active tank (with AAR+AR) or the old pure active tank, and without killing your speed, and more importantly, freeing you a low slots (and maybe a med slot : less armor reper mean less cap needed ; and as the AAR will run for a little more than one minute, you don't need more than that of cap life before being cap stable again).

These changes will open countless possibilities for many ships, and allow to use signature AND tank at the same time !

That is so huge it will be hard to tell where that will lead us before some times, though most concerns should be fixed with that : active armor can use less slot ; active armor will be 17% faster ; buffer will be 25% more agile ; and smaller plates may become useful !


ITS WATTS. GIGA WATTS.
Jojo Jackson
Dead Red Eye
#817 - 2013-01-24 21:13:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Jojo Jackson
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

These change are awesome

They don't impress me at all.

Useless for PvE. Don't care about PvP
And even for PvP I don't see any "awesomeness" as standart deepspace shield booster are more effezient + boost more HP then this new useless AAR gimmik.

PS: And who cares about Plates? They are never used for PvE anyway!

Changes don't adress the real problems!

Why the hell can't I fitt capital repairs or shield booster on an Orca ... it's an CAPITAL ship!

Akturous
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#818 - 2013-01-24 21:28:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Akturous
Eternal Error wrote:

1. You COMPLETELY missed the point on adding new modules/skills. If something is broken, you FIX IT. You don't add something new and say "well, this should work instead." This has never been done in the past (it started one or two patches ago) and is absolute ****. You're basically saying you acknowledge that there are issues, but are ignoring them. As for training new skills, I don't care. I have just shy of 110m sp and 3 bonus remaps. In the mean time, you're dicking over new players and bringing the game to a point where you need an absolutely absurd number of support skills to compete. Oh, and when you introduce new skills, you're still not addressing the underlying issues. E.G. here, you're basically admitting that armor plates have way too much added mass, but not fixing it.

Also, the ASB is garbage that should have never been added to the game. If CCP continues this awful trend of ignoring old modules and just spamming new **** everywhere, I'm gone.

2. I hope you're joking with that PG reply. Seriously. One of the underlying issues with armor reppers is how high the fitting reqs are.

3. I'm not particularly stoked about anything involving overheating being used as a method of balancing, making something more viable, etc. It should be a last ditch attempt or something that adds a bit of "oomph", not something that is required to not suck.

I realize I'm coming across a bit rude, but what is the point of these threads if you don't post them until you've obviously made up your mind? And at what point did you say "nah screw it, we'll ignore the core issues, THIS NEW STUFF is how we're going to fix it"?

EDIT: made some edits


This, seriously, I've thought about it and although I like the idea of the AAR, what your essentially doing is making regular armour reps completely obsolete because the new AAR is just so much better in every way and the disparity is greater than even ASB and regular shield boosters since I've actually stopped using ASB's on my cyclone.

You don't fix the current problems with active armour tanking (speed (which your addressing), fitting issues (which your making worse), rep amount (which your ignoring completely, especially true with MARs) and cargo hold for cap boosters (your not addressing, you need to make boosters smaller) by introducing a new module to make the old one obsolete in everything but PVE (and seriously who armour tanks for pve...).

Pretty well you've come up with an idea and thought "HEY THIS IS SOOO COOL" and then completely ignored current balancing issues in favour of pushing out new "exciting" modules. I mean you even do things like make the new Cyclone have a SMALLER wtf? cargo bay, presumably because cap 200s and 400s for large and xl asb's are so small, but your completely ignoring the fact that you can only fit 15-16 navy 800's when your using a regular booster.

As for adding new skills being ok because "you'll get most of the benefit at lvl2-3" is just plain bullshit. If plates add too much inertia, reduce that, don't introduce a skill to do it.

Support skills were the single biggest turn off to this game when I started and I'm pretty sure it remains the same for new players (a few months old), that and the ****** boring missions.

TLDR fix the bloody problems with current armour tanking and rigs, go live, rebalance, introduce new modules, rebalance, job done. Oh btw, when's my Arazu getting the same damp bonus as the Celestis, since my rapier and my curse both had their ewar bonuses changed to match the t1 changes, or are you so caught up frothing over your new modules you simply forgot?

Edit,
Bitches whinging about the price of nanite paste need to be better at making isk, seriously, if your that worried about the price of paste you should make your own (like I do) or stop pvp'ing because you clearly can't afford it. Paste instead of boosters for the extra sauce repping is the one change Fozzies made that I actually think is awesome.

Vote Item Heck One for CSM8

Mag's
Azn Empire
#819 - 2013-01-24 21:56:57 UTC
Had a post all typed out, but it was really negative. So decided not to post. Just couldn't see the point.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Nikuno
Atomic Heroes
#820 - 2013-01-24 22:15:59 UTC
Sinzor Aumer wrote:
Holly war Shield vs Armor keeps rolling...
But among those graphs of reps per second and HP calculation of LSE and 1600 - I dont see almost none comments about Reactive Armor Hardener.
Do you think it's fine, so no need to worry? Or do you think it's so fail that not even worth considering? Did you even try it - in EFT or in EVE itself?


It's rubbish. Cap use is too high if you train the skill, change rate is too slow if you don't, not enough differentiation between levels of incoming damage types, doesn't alter once it peaks if damage type changes (you have to manually reset it which rather defeats it's autonamous nature). I liked the idea, much like the AAR but the module and skill we were given were a long way from the paradigm and largely useless in-game.