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Guess what? Solo players ARE the majority in EVE.

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Tebb1288
Firework Industries
#301 - 2013-01-24 18:34:29 UTC
You shouldn't be trying to find ways to punish players in high sec.

You should be trying to find ways to encourage players to leave high sec. From there you can kill them.

Tired of miners all hiding in high sec? Remove the high yield ores (condensed, luminous, etc) from high sec so they only appear in low and null and increase their yield over the 10% and 20% they are now.

You want players to stop play solo? Give them Incentives to join groups or move out of npc/one man corps. Increase the taxes on npc corps and lower the refine value of npc stations so that there is a noticeable gain to join a player run corp and move out of the high sec stations.

Figuring out how you can storm into high sec to kill and grief these players will just make them quit, and result in less people for you to kill and grief.
Not Politically Correct
Doomheim
#302 - 2013-01-24 18:40:30 UTC
There are two barely on-topic things I would like to bring up.

I don't play the same game that the 1%ers do. I use the same server, but don't play the same game. I don't want to and there is nothing to force me to do it. I enjoy doing constructive things, like mining, manufacturing, and, yes, null sec anti-pirate roams. I will continue until CCP makes it impossible, because that is what I enjoy.

I know for a fact that I am not alone.

Second, I'm not sure where all the talk about people holing up in station due to war decs comes from. I've had a number of corporations over the years. I stopped counting the number of times they were war decced at 16 for some reason. During those war decs, I don't think I ever lost a ship, or paid an ISK. My definition of war decs doesn't have anything to do with killing anyone's ships, especially mine. I believe that the winner is the one who maintains their income during a war and doesn't lose anything, especially the fee you have to pay to maintain the war dec.

I don't stay in station. I don't need to. I've been doing this too long to not know how to deal with extortionists and other 1%ers.
Dave Stark
#303 - 2013-01-24 18:43:25 UTC
Tebb1288 wrote:
Tired of miners all hiding in high sec? Remove the high yield ores (condensed, luminous, etc) from high sec so they only appear in low and null and increase their yield over the 10% and 20% they are now.


so what you're saying is, if asteroids in low sec were worth 20% more than asteroids in high sec, people would mine in low sec?
is that honestly what you're implying?

please say you're not that stupid. please.
Davith en Divalone
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#304 - 2013-01-24 18:54:55 UTC
Not Politically Correct wrote:
First off, I don't think I have ever said, anywhere, that all non-consensual PvP should be taken out of the game. If i did, sorry. Cutting all non-consensual PvP wouldn't solve the problem. (It would be interesting to see what it would do, though.

Returning to the theme of the thread, IMHO, the current game mechanics seem to me to attract players who are not player friendly. For instance, I travel a lot and watch local chat. I may go months before I see any one say or do anything friendly. The majority of what is posted in those channels isn't even civil. No. I'm not advocating that the chat channels be moderated.


Default chat channels are bad in almost every game. Although it could be much worse, Eve doesn't have a Pornshire (a WoW zone notorious for erotic role play, although I've heard it can be hilarious.) The default new player channel though isn't bad, although it does get trolled on a daily basis. I've found corp chat and voice coms here to be among the more friendly and helpful I've ever encountered.

My opponent is not my enemy. In chess, you do your best to systematically strip away defenses and put the opposing player into a desperate, unwinnable situation. Then, at the end of the match, we shake hands and walk away, because win or loose, it's about the challenge. That's a central part of not only Eve, but most games out there involving more than one person.

But sure, there should be mechanisms out there to enable one to walk away from a lopsided match that's gone beyond good sportsmanship. NPC corps, jump clones, and alternate characters provide this.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#305 - 2013-01-24 18:55:58 UTC
Newt Rondanse wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:

If each ship costs you "hours of effort" you suck at EVE.

And if there isn't room in the game for people who suck at it, the game will go away.

Right now, such room exists.

Highsec play time to replace a reasonable L4 missioning ship is several hours of L4 missions, even given optimal play.

This isn't a problem.

Since you are in Goonswarm you probably have some idea of how long it would take to earn the isk to replace a reasonable nullsec ratting ship by ratting with that ship. From what people claim on the forums and the market price of the fits it looks like it takes 2-3 hours to earn enough ratting to replace a decent ratting rig.

Having other sources of income, as well as savings from successful play, doesn't change that.


This post illustrate a problem I find with how some high sec people think: You have no experience with null sec and are just going off what you heard.

I'd stake what little reputation I have on the following Statement, the best isk per hour you can get from a sub-capital ship comes from a Vindicator where the pilot has access Serpentis or guristas space (namely Forsaken Hubs). The best I've seen is a 55 mil tick with a vindicator in that situation (a naga is a less efficient but much much cheaper and still really profitable alternative, but thats another story).

That's at best 165 mil an hour (before taxes) in the best situation you can get regarding null sec anomalies with a single sub-capital ship. With a ship that will at best run you 2 to 3 bil. Thats 12 to 15 ish hours of ratting to replace it (not counting faction spawns and escalations, which are rare enough to not be a factor.

Compare the above to the 180 mil an hour I make with the exact same ship (vindicator) as a part of a shiney HIGH SEC incursion fleet (120 mil bounties plus 60 mil worth of CONCORD LP).

I recently helped a Buddie (friend of a friend) who was new to the game get a Fleet Tempest so he could do high sec incursions (he was already bored with missions after playing for 3 months). 3 days later he bough his very 1st machariel that he didn't even have the skills to sit in yet with isk from incursions.....
Newt Rondanse
Magnificent Mayhem Mining
#306 - 2013-01-24 19:13:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Newt Rondanse
Yeah, I don't know nullsec. So?

If what I said is wrong, correct it. (which you did)

You also compared highsec incursions (a group activity that pays quite well) with a nullsec solo activity.

Which says nothing about there needing to be room in the game for people who suck at it.

I'd note that by your own math, highsec incursions only pay a little bit better than nullsec anomalies.

55Misk/tick=165Misk/hr

So that puts the top end highsec group activity at 180Misk/hr on par with solo nullsec content.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#307 - 2013-01-24 19:18:16 UTC
Newt Rondanse wrote:
Yeah, I don't know nullsec. So?


That's the entire point, you choose to form and opinion about and make a post concerning something that you admit you don't know anything about (not to be harsh to you personally, but this happens ALL THE TIME with high sec people). Most high sec people will never leave high sec according to CCP, but then still have nerve enough to offer opinons about every aspect of the game and form ill-informed opinions about people who play outside high sec. it's a bad personal tendency that drives me up the wall lol.

it's not the same for everyone else. EVERY null, low and WH player will start and probably spend signifigant time in high sec where as the opposite isn't true. High Sec folks should understand that before posting....but don't..

(Again, not to be harsh to you personally, you just tripped over one of my pet peeves about "high sec folk").

Quote:

If what I said is wrong, correct it.


I just did lol.
Newt Rondanse
Magnificent Mayhem Mining
#308 - 2013-01-24 19:22:59 UTC
I was editing while you were responding, and I don't see what my ignorance of nullsec operations has to do with my ability to comment on PvE rewards in highsec.

For L4 missions an ordinary Dominix with a T2 fit is quite a good choice, but if all you are doing to pay for it is L4 missions it will take a few hours of earnings to cover replacement costs.
Tebb1288
Firework Industries
#309 - 2013-01-24 19:26:13 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Tebb1288 wrote:
Tired of miners all hiding in high sec? Remove the high yield ores (condensed, luminous, etc) from high sec so they only appear in low and null and increase their yield over the 10% and 20% they are now.


so what you're saying is, if asteroids in low sec were worth 20% more than asteroids in high sec, people would mine in low sec?
is that honestly what you're implying?

please say you're not that stupid. please.



I said increase their yield higher than 20%. I bolded it so it is easier for you to read.

The value that would push people to go to low sec would vary by person to person, with some never leaving the safety of high sec.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#310 - 2013-01-24 19:29:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Newt Rondanse wrote:
I was editing while you were responding, and I don't see what my ignorance of nullsec operations has to do with my ability to comment on PvE rewards in highsec.



You don't see how you ignorance of Null sec affects your post COMPARING high sec pve to null sec pve?
Quote:

For L4 missions an ordinary Dominix with a T2 fit is quite a good choice, but if all you are doing to pay for it is L4 missions it will take a few hours of earnings to cover replacement costs.


Just like in null sec where a good ratting ship like a mach or vindi will take hours of grinding. you can do it in cheaper ships sure, but the cost/time will scale almost the same way. A dominix in Forsaken Hubs will still take time to grind up like it would in a lvl 4 mission, it wouldn't be that much faster at all.

You have a common misundertanding of null sec if you think you get isk just from jumping in to a 0.0 system and warping to the 1st belt you find lol.
Dave Stark
#311 - 2013-01-24 19:30:55 UTC
Tebb1288 wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Tebb1288 wrote:
Tired of miners all hiding in high sec? Remove the high yield ores (condensed, luminous, etc) from high sec so they only appear in low and null and increase their yield over the 10% and 20% they are now.


so what you're saying is, if asteroids in low sec were worth 20% more than asteroids in high sec, people would mine in low sec?
is that honestly what you're implying?

please say you're not that stupid. please.



I said increase their yield higher than 20%. I bolded it so it is easier for you to read.

The value that would push people to go to low sec would vary by person to person, with some never leaving the safety of high sec.


sure it does, but low sec ores are already worth 20% more than high sec ores, hence me questioning the stupidity of your statement.

in short; your suggestion changes nothing.
Ana Vyr
Vyral Technologies
#312 - 2013-01-24 19:41:08 UTC
As a solo, single account holder player, this is what I do:

Manufacturing....T2 stuff....this requires me to have a POS for blueprint research. I mine my own fuel and do PI to keep that going. I do research for datacores. I mine my own minerals for manufacturing, and buy what I cannot mine. These activities take quite a bit of time.

When I want something different, I split my time between level 4 missioning, and exploration.

New solo content would be a great thing, but the game does already have many options.

I did the whole alliance corp nullsec deal way back about four years ago and found it really not to my liking, people were dishonest, teamspeak was required, and we were expected to dance to somebody elses tune. I just don't have the time for that, but if that's what makes you feel happy, I have nothing against it at all.
Newt Rondanse
Magnificent Mayhem Mining
#313 - 2013-01-24 19:46:13 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Newt Rondanse wrote:
I was editing while you were responding, and I don't see what my ignorance of nullsec operations has to do with my ability to comment on PvE rewards in highsec.



You don't see how you ignorance of Null sec affects your post COMPARING high sec pve to null sec pve?
Quote:

For L4 missions an ordinary Dominix with a T2 fit is quite a good choice, but if all you are doing to pay for it is L4 missions it will take a few hours of earnings to cover replacement costs.


Just like in null sec where a good ratting ship like a mach or vindi will take hours of grinding. you can do it in cheaper ships sure, but the cost/time will scale almost the same way. A dominix in Forsaken Hubs will still take time to grind up like it would in a lvl 4 mission, it wouldn't be that much faster at all.

You have a common misundertanding of null sec if you think you get isk just from jumping in to a 0.0 system and warping to the 1st belt you find lol.

I wouldn't know about earning isk in nullsec, only what people claim on the forums.

I trade and do highsec missions and PI.

It's relaxing and fun for me, and I don't have a killboard to show for it.

Am I playing EvE wrong?
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#314 - 2013-01-24 19:54:19 UTC
Newt Rondanse wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Newt Rondanse wrote:
I was editing while you were responding, and I don't see what my ignorance of nullsec operations has to do with my ability to comment on PvE rewards in highsec.



You don't see how you ignorance of Null sec affects your post COMPARING high sec pve to null sec pve?
Quote:

For L4 missions an ordinary Dominix with a T2 fit is quite a good choice, but if all you are doing to pay for it is L4 missions it will take a few hours of earnings to cover replacement costs.


Just like in null sec where a good ratting ship like a mach or vindi will take hours of grinding. you can do it in cheaper ships sure, but the cost/time will scale almost the same way. A dominix in Forsaken Hubs will still take time to grind up like it would in a lvl 4 mission, it wouldn't be that much faster at all.

You have a common misundertanding of null sec if you think you get isk just from jumping in to a 0.0 system and warping to the 1st belt you find lol.

I wouldn't know about earning isk in nullsec, only what people claim on the forums.

I trade and do highsec missions and PI.

It's relaxing and fun for me, and I don't have a killboard to show for it.

Am I playing EvE wrong?


Why would you think you're playing EVE wrong? I am a mostly PVE player who plays in high low and null so (unlike you) I am familiar with a broad spectrum of PVE earning capabilities.

You're not playing wrong, you're simply doing forum posting wrong lol. Why comment on something you know you don't have any information on? I've simpyl corrected your provably incorrect notions about a place you admit knowing nothing about? That doesn't show much common sense is all I'm saying.
Tebb1288
Firework Industries
#315 - 2013-01-24 19:55:29 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Tebb1288 wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Tebb1288 wrote:
Tired of miners all hiding in high sec? Remove the high yield ores (condensed, luminous, etc) from high sec so they only appear in low and null and increase their yield over the 10% and 20% they are now.


so what you're saying is, if asteroids in low sec were worth 20% more than asteroids in high sec, people would mine in low sec?
is that honestly what you're implying?

please say you're not that stupid. please.



I said increase their yield higher than 20%. I bolded it so it is easier for you to read.

The value that would push people to go to low sec would vary by person to person, with some never leaving the safety of high sec.


sure it does, but low sec ores are already worth 20% more than high sec ores, hence me questioning the stupidity of your statement.

in short; your suggestion changes nothing.


Except if they were worth 50% or 100% more than I would have to consider mining them. I mine in high sec. 20% more isn't enough to make me leave for lowsec. or nullsec. The increase in profit has to outweigh the risk of loss, or else it is not worth doing.

I take it you don't do anything in high sec except grief people? If you took a minute to understand why people stay in high sec you could understand what it would take to draw us out.

Also, I do have an alt to suicide gank miners. Not because it is fun, but because killing someone else mining in my belt and having that ore to myself outweighs the cost of losing that ship.
Davith en Divalone
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#316 - 2013-01-24 19:56:31 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:

The bottom line.
People that stay docked do so because they don't want to lose a ship. I don't care who you are, or where you play. It makes no diffence if you're a high sec industrialist, or -A- claiming it's to deny good fights.

When you don't undock it's because you're trying to not to lose a ship, and that's simply pathetic.


Of course it's about not losing a ship. That's why there's an efficiency ratio on the killboards.

But, knowingly walking into a trap is playing the game badly and dumb. I've no obligation to give you the easy kill, and every obligation to use the tools at my disposal to take the fight to ground that I think is more in my favor.
Not Politically Correct
Doomheim
#317 - 2013-01-24 20:04:07 UTC
Ana Vyr wrote:

I did the whole alliance corp nullsec deal way back about four years ago and found it really not to my liking, people were dishonest, teamspeak was required, and we were expected to dance to somebody elses tune. I just don't have the time for that, but if that's what makes you feel happy, I have nothing against it at all.


This is the best description of the whole Null Sec experience I have ever seen. I applaud you.

Not all people who prefer Hi Sec do so because they have never been to Null. Many of the prefer Hi Sec because they have been to Null, and it is just as Ana stated. (Based solely on the year that I spent there.)

Someone else was talking about the financial benefits of being in Null Sec. As for mining, no one seems to mention incidents like a corp trying to keep 700,000 units of Compressed Zydrine, because it was worthless. Hmmm.

Plexes? I ran some when I was out there. For me, the big difference between running complexes and running Level 4s is that I don't like running complexes. Level 4s I don't particularly enjoy, but I don't dislike them.

The amount of ISK available is NOT a good reason to move to Null Sec, for me, and it wouldn't be even if CCP nerfed the ore.

Null Sec is basically for a special kind of people. Most are so special that they risk their ships every time they leave Null. I have no desire to be one of those people, and no one can force me to be one. I do just fine with my limited means and aspirations. :)

Once again, I strongly suspect that I am not alone. As a matter of fact I suspect that there are more players who feel the way I do, than there are players who want to be 1%ers.
Keen Fallsword
Skyway Patrol
#318 - 2013-01-24 20:05:14 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
CCP doesn't only listen to the people who get 10,000 votes from their alliance bloc. You dramatically overestimate the power the CSM holds.

-Liang

Ed: Also, CCP has done tons for my mostly solo/super small corp play style since Apocrypha.


Very True CSM is for tourism. Its free Iceland tour club.
Newt Rondanse
Magnificent Mayhem Mining
#319 - 2013-01-24 20:05:56 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:

Why would you think you're playing EVE wrong? I am a mostly PVE player who plays in high low and null so (unlike you) I am familiar with a broad spectrum of PVE earning capabilities.

You're not playing wrong, you're simply doing forum posting wrong lol. Why comment on something you know you don't have any information on? I've simpyl corrected your provably incorrect notions about a place you admit knowing nothing about? That doesn't show much common sense is all I'm saying.



Well, the only thing I got wrong in my original post was how much a reasonable nullsec ratting ship would cost.

I'd seen the 55M/tick claim before (a lot), and figured that a half-billion isk ship would be able to get a significant portion of that for a well-skilled character. I guess I was wrong there.

So, what's your take on the need for a place where people can fail at EvE without being pushed out of the game completely?
Not Politically Correct
Doomheim
#320 - 2013-01-24 20:18:08 UTC
Newt Rondanse wrote:


So, what's your take on the need for a place where people can fail at EvE without being pushed out of the game completely?


I'm sorry, but I don't think that is going to get you a polite response.