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Scamming new players.
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Ammzi
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#41 - 2013-01-24 18:53:48 UTC
Ha, sorry I laughed. Oops
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#42 - 2013-01-24 19:03:38 UTC
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
Psychotic Monk wrote:
Mistah Ewedynao wrote:
Make all the conditions you like but scamming noobs, ganking noobs, sucking noobs into BS gank the noob corps etc, are all total Bullcrap and anyone caught doing such should be permabanned.

The game will be much better off without them. AND the whole scamming plex thing has gotten out of control IMO. Sure, those of us who have been around don't pay attention to them so why are they there? The only person who will fall for one is a noob, otherwise they just contribute to the local spam overload in trade hubs.


I assure you that people many years into this game still do incredibly stupid things.

But this opinion you have about scamming, ganking, and so on, does it apply to only noobs? Are more experienced players fair game, in your opinion? If so, how would you define a noob? Keep in mind that this definition has to avoid being gamed in order to confer protection to more veteran players.

If, for instance, all accounts under a certain age or SP couldn't be scammed, I would use alts that fit that description to do all my business. In fact, I would probably use those alts to scam other people in a way that could be played off as ignorance.


Its easy to define a noob. A kid who wants to sell a PLEX his mom got him and who doesn't know how to contract it. That is by definition a noob, and someone that needs a bit of direction.

The trick here is not to try and enforce or investigate the matter after the fact, you are correct that is futile. Rather scamming noobs should be against policy, and DM's should go out acting like noobs and then ban the scammers that go after them.

Once the scammers are not sure if they are talking to a kid or a DM they will be less brazen. I guess they will just use alts. Is there a way to know if alt accounts are from the same comp? or a way to track the PLEX once the scammer has it?


Jita 90210.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Corey Fumimasa
CFM Salvage
#43 - 2013-01-24 19:05:13 UTC
Captain TNT wrote:
There are two ways to learn lessons: the easy way and the hard way and the poor kid got it in the hard way, as simple as that although i feel bad about the incidence in all Roll


The problem is that this was a RL lesson learned from a ridiculous video game. Do you really think that the cold horrifying "reality" of Eve is a good model with which to teach kids about life? Gahhh! They would all grow up to be hateful lawyers that carried guns.
Jame Jarl Retief
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#44 - 2013-01-24 19:05:16 UTC
Some posts in this thread make me smile.

EVE is a harsh and unforgiving place... But you can't scam noobs. At the same time, it's perfectly OK if said noob goes and buys his first battleship, outfits it with nice bling, takes it to low sec and gets immediately blown up by a gate camp. What's that? He should know better than to take a BS into lowsec without a scout? Well, he should also know better than trade a PLEX with a random char in station too. And the contradictions just keep piling up...

You guys should really make up your minds. If you want the game to be harsh and unforgiving, then make it harsh and unforgiving. If you want it to be Hello Kitty Island Adventure, then make it so. But don't come up with dozens of arbitrary exception cases of what is OK and what is not OK. For example, at what point does a player stop being a noob anyway? 14 days? 21 days? What if he only actively played for 1 of those 21 days, is he still a noob? Is a noob someone who is clueless regardless of the time spent in game? By that logic I can claim all my losses should be refunded because I'm a noob too, when it comes to certain things. Etc., etc.

Bottom line, in this particular case, if the kid doesn't get his PLEX returned, he'll probably quit the game. Which also explains why the game is having trouble reaching even 500k subs. On the flipside, had this kid gotten the ISK for his PLEX and used ISK to buy a nice ship and then lost it - be it to suicide gankers, NPCs, lag/connection issues, etc., he'd probably quit as well. Which also explains why the game is having trouble reaching that same 500k subs. The only possible "happy ending" is the guy gets really lucky, doesn't make any mistakes, and sticks around long enough to learn enough not to fall for obvious things. It's the way the game is designed. I don't know why anyone would expect anything different.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#45 - 2013-01-24 19:08:35 UTC
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
Captain TNT wrote:
There are two ways to learn lessons: the easy way and the hard way and the poor kid got it in the hard way, as simple as that although i feel bad about the incidence in all Roll


The problem is that this was a RL lesson learned from a ridiculous video game. Do you really think that the cold horrifying "reality" of Eve is a good model with which to teach kids about life? Gahhh! They would all grow up to be hateful lawyers that carried guns.


At the very least it will teach him that a number containing just one number and that being zero does not equal several hundred million.
Psychotic Monk
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#46 - 2013-01-24 19:12:01 UTC
Corey Fumimasa wrote:


Its easy to define a noob. A kid who wants to sell a PLEX his mom got him and who doesn't know how to contract it. That is by definition a noob, and someone that needs a bit of direction.



Okay, so anyone who is a kid that wants to sell a PLEX his mom got him is a noob. Is there anyone else that is a noob? How can you confirm that this person is a kid? Most kids online are instructed to not tell anyone they're a kid. And if kids are going to get special consideration, what's to prevent someone like me from pretending to be a kid?

Belligerent Undesirables Selling Griefer Immunity
Psychotic Monk
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#47 - 2013-01-24 19:13:44 UTC
Also, this probably isn't a game you should let your kid play.

Belligerent Undesirables Selling Griefer Immunity
Jame Jarl Retief
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#48 - 2013-01-24 19:14:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Jame Jarl Retief
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
Do you really think that the cold horrifying "reality" of Eve is a good model with which to teach kids about life? Gahhh!


Actually, yeah, I think EVE model is a good way to teach kids about life. It just depends on what you want in the end - a savvy kid or a naive kid who will soon be parted with his money (if any). It teaches risk management, resource allocation, basic economics, etc. In terms of education, EVE is way above average when it comes to gaming.

There's surprisingly many similarities between flying through lowsec and being approached by an unknown ship, and walking down the street and being approached by a strange man. In both cases you REALLY want to know he's there before he gets within, shall we call it "scram range", where escape is no longer an option. That he wants something from you (bounty, ransom, etc.) is pretty much a given in both cases. If you don't believe me, stop and think, when was the last time a man approached you in a deserted street, said "Here's $200, have fun with it!" and walked off? For me, that's a big fat NEVER. Etc., etc. In some ways EVE is just wonderful. Like "don't jump through a gate without knowing what's on the other side". Oddly similar to "look before you jump" that people teach their kids (usually related to diving into water without knowing what's down there).

And yeah, if someone says "Give me $200, and I'll give you $400 back.", EVE will teach you it's a scam, and hopefully it'll cost you just some ISK. Same with contract scams - that ask to trade a PLEX + 500 mil for a single PLEX. It teaches you to read the fine print (and in EVE's case, it teaches you to read the BIG print). Which will come in handy when the kid is buying his first cell phone plan or whatever else.

Frankly I wish I had EVE when I was growing up. Sadly when I was that age, ZX Spectrum was cutting edge technology... Cry
Corey Fumimasa
CFM Salvage
#49 - 2013-01-24 19:15:04 UTC
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
Some posts in this thread make me smile.

EVE is a harsh and unforgiving place... But you can't scam noobs. At the same time, it's perfectly OK if said noob goes and buys his first battleship, outfits it with nice bling, takes it to low sec and gets immediately blown up by a gate camp. What's that? He should know better than to take a BS into lowsec without a scout? Well, he should also know better than trade a PLEX with a random char in station too. And the contradictions just keep piling up...

You guys should really make up your minds. If you want the game to be harsh and unforgiving, then make it harsh and unforgiving. If you want it to be Hello Kitty Island Adventure, then make it so. But don't come up with dozens of arbitrary exception cases of what is OK and what is not OK. For example, at what point does a player stop being a noob anyway? 14 days? 21 days? What if he only actively played for 1 of those 21 days, is he still a noob? Is a noob someone who is clueless regardless of the time spent in game? By that logic I can claim all my losses should be refunded because I'm a noob too, when it comes to certain things. Etc., etc.

Bottom line, in this particular case, if the kid doesn't get his PLEX returned, he'll probably quit the game. Which also explains why the game is having trouble reaching even 500k subs. On the flipside, had this kid gotten the ISK for his PLEX and used ISK to buy a nice ship and then lost it - be it to suicide gankers, NPCs, lag/connection issues, etc., he'd probably quit as well. Which also explains why the game is having trouble reaching that same 500k subs. The only possible "happy ending" is the guy gets really lucky, doesn't make any mistakes, and sticks around long enough to learn enough not to fall for obvious things. It's the way the game is designed. I don't know why anyone would expect anything different.

Loosing a blingmobile in lowsec is different than having a PLEX taken. The kid got to buy and fit the ship, fly it around a bit, and a big warning sign appeared before he went into low. If he gets ganked then at least he gets to see CONCORD extract some vengeance. This kid asked for help and someone used his newness to take from him.

I think Eve should be a harsh place. Highsec should be patrolled by DM's acting like noobs, and people that go after them because they are noobs should get fined or banned. Nothing wrong with having that kind of oversight in the sandbox. Call it "emergent content" it would be brilliant.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#50 - 2013-01-24 19:17:08 UTC
Psychotic Monk wrote:
They don't prohibit suicide ganking noobs. They prohibit suicide ganking noobs in the newbie starter systems.

Actually the rule is "don't mess with newbies".
So if you have a track record of suicide ganking newbs, wherever they happen to be (in highsec, obviously), you can expect a stern warning from CCP at best and possible a forced vacation from EVE.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#51 - 2013-01-24 19:18:19 UTC
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
I think Eve should be a harsh place. Highsec should be patrolled by DM's acting like noobs, and people that go after them because they are noobs should get fined or banned. Nothing wrong with having that kind of oversight in the sandbox. Call it "emergent content" it would be brilliant.

GMs (I don't know why you keep calling them DMs) have much better things to do... I'd rather not have the petition system more backed up than it already is.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Gelatine
EverBroke Geeks
#52 - 2013-01-24 19:19:57 UTC
I'm no lawyer, but if I took $20 dollars off a child, my community would disown me and the law would make me pay - harshly where I live. I'm not aware of a country where theft is lawful actually - I'm going to test my google-fu after I post this to see if there is such a place.

All the mother needs to do is write to her senator/MEP or equivalent. It wouldn't take much of a push for a senator to see EVE promoting terrorism, piracy, theft and scamming to decide that this game isn't something a child should have any part in - perhaps even adults. Now that I think about it, I wouldn't let my kids play EVE either, and I'm starting to think CCP are so childish and immoral that I soon may no longer have patience to tolerate their game further.
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#53 - 2013-01-24 19:21:29 UTC
Andski wrote:
De'Veldrin wrote:
True, but the headache for CCP will be when mom calls her credit card company and says "That's an invalid charge because my son didn't get the thing I bought." TBH, I was surprised when CCP started allowing you to undock with PLEX - it's got to be mkore of a hassle for them than they first anticipated.


i'm pretty sure chargebacks get you permabanned


When you have no life and hang out 24/7 in a single game and it's related forums, I can see how that might seem important to you. You and the other .0000000001% of the world population that have heard of this game and the .000001% of them that actually play it.

For the rest of the people. Paying for a item and receiving it is more important. The line into virtual goods is fuzzy, but Mom doesn't care about that. She makes a call for the charge-back and CCP loses that money and a customer.

Makes no sense to me, tbh.

Mr Epeen Cool
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#54 - 2013-01-24 19:22:16 UTC
Gelatine wrote:
I'm no lawyer, but if I took $20 dollars off a child, my community would disown me and the law would make me pay - harshly where I live.

Nobody did that.

Gelatine wrote:
All the mother needs to do is write to her senator/MEP or equivalent. It wouldn't take much of a push for a senator to see EVE promoting terrorism, piracy, theft and scamming to decide that this game isn't something a child should have any part in - perhaps even adults. Now that I think about it, I wouldn't let my kids play EVE either, and I'm starting to think CCP are so childish and immoral that I soon may no longer have patience to tolerate their game further.

GTFO.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Cannibal Kane
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#55 - 2013-01-24 19:23:06 UTC
Gelatine wrote:
I'm no lawyer, but if I took $20 dollars off a child, my community would disown me and the law would make me pay - harshly where I live. I'm not aware of a country where theft is lawful actually - I'm going to test my google-fu after I post this to see if there is such a place.

All the mother needs to do is write to her senator/MEP or equivalent. It wouldn't take much of a push for a senator to see EVE promoting terrorism, piracy, theft and scamming to decide that this game isn't something a child should have any part in - perhaps even adults. Now that I think about it, I wouldn't let my kids play EVE either, and I'm starting to think CCP are so childish and immoral that I soon may no longer have patience to tolerate their game further.


Wow...

On my list you go....

Just wow.

"Kane is the End Boss of Highsec." -Psychotic Monk
Mai Khumm
172.0.0.1
#56 - 2013-01-24 19:23:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Mai Khumm
Apperently everyone doesn't read the EULA, ESP the part that says, "Everything contained within is the sole property of CCP Games"

So, every ship/bullet/module/drone and *gasp* PLEX is "owned" by CCP and CCP only. The kid "lost" the $20 the moment he bought it from his acct management page.

Now, what if he undocked with it in his cargo hold, and he got ganked? Now, half of you will be up in arms to ban the ganker!!!

Sure, the scammer was low and scammed a noob!
Did the scammer say ANYTHING in the "Help" channel?
No, he did not, he private convo'd him.
This happens ALL THE TIME with recruitment scams!

Tell the kid to suck it up and say "Welcome to EVE"

/thread
Corey Fumimasa
CFM Salvage
#57 - 2013-01-24 19:24:19 UTC
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
Do you really think that the cold horrifying "reality" of Eve is a good model with which to teach kids about life? Gahhh!


Actually, yeah, I think EVE model is a good way to teach kids about life. It just depends on what you want in the end - a savvy kid or a naive kid who will soon be parted with his money (if any). It teaches risk management, resource allocation, basic economics, etc. In terms of education, EVE is way above average when it comes to gaming.


Frankly I wish I had EVE when I was growing up. Sadly when I was that age, ZX Spectrum was cutting edge technology... Cry


The difference is in lowsec 50%+ of the people are trying to get you. In RL that number is minuscule. Lessons learned in eve are skewed because of this difference.

In RL the risk of working with those around you is much smaller. Also in RL cooperation and communication are critical to success. In Eve many people choose to go solo just because you can't trust anyone here. No this is no place to teach kids about life.

And using the idea that "he learned a good lesson" is also false because of that fact. RL is not like Eve, therefore many of the game lessons learned here are not applicable to RL.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#58 - 2013-01-24 19:25:02 UTC
De'Veldrin wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:

Secondly, if "his mom gave it to him" it was to give him a month of game time... so why was he trying to sell it to begin with. If I was his mom I'd be a little pissed off about that. That fact negates some of my sympathy.

Gotta disagree with you here. Remember this is the same age group that is paying all those f2p pay to win games on Facebook and PSN and the like. Parents give their kids in game money for stuff all the time (I've bought my kids cards for their games for their birthdays before).

The problem is, in Eve, your stuff can be taken away from you pretty easily, whereas in those other games, it generally is yours once you get it.


Quote:

No, the only issue is "is scamming allowed in the help channel, and did this event happen in the help channel or a convo?".


Fundamentally, I agree with you.

However, the headache for CCP will be when mom calls her credit card company and says "That's an invalid charge because my son didn't get the thing I bought." TBH, I was surprised when CCP started allowing you to undock with PLEX - it's got to be mkore of a hassle for them than they first anticipated.


He did get the thing that she bought though, he just gave it away to someone.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Jame Jarl Retief
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#59 - 2013-01-24 19:25:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Jame Jarl Retief
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
Loosing a blingmobile in lowsec is different than having a PLEX taken. The kid got to buy and fit the ship, fly it around a bit, and a big warning sign appeared before he went into low. If he gets ganked then at least he gets to see CONCORD extract some vengeance. This kid asked for help and someone used his newness to take from him.


You know what a "blingmobile" is. Or "gankbait". A noob wouldn't. Warning might be disabled if he switched his weapon toggle to red. Yeah, there's a warning, but just one, and let's face it, most players today won't read some wimpy warning window. As such, no warning when jumping into low. And even IF he got a warning, he probably accepted a mission and trusted game designers not to screw him.

Case in point, my own personal very first jump into low sec was doing an L3 mission, just a week or two into EVE, in a cruiser. It worked out fine, the mission was short and nobody bothered me. But I trusted the game design not to place a noob into a situation where he can't possibly survive. Sadly, now I know better. But many/most new players will have the same mentality - most other MMOs simply will not allow a new player to make a blunder of that magnitude early on.

And even if he sees CONCORD (which is doubtful, most likely he'll be killed and podded and end up back in station wondering what the heck just happened), he won't know what's happening because it's not really clearly explained anywhere within the game.

And finally, if he said "I'm a noob, buy a PLEX from me", how do you know any of it is true? Can I claim "I'm a noob, buy a PLEX from me" while using one of my alt characters and thus make it a bannable offense to scam me? How do we determine who's a noob and who isn't?

Quote:
I think Eve should be a harsh place. Highsec should be patrolled by DM's acting like noobs, and people that go after them because they are noobs should get fined or banned.


Sure, that could be fun for a while. But guess what? Game's population will shrink from 450k to 150k if griefers, exploiters and cheaters and kicked out. Further, where do we draw the line with this? Suppose a noob jumps into a system, and gets smartbombed dead at the gate. He wasn't the intended target, a big fat hauler was, he just got in the way. So do we ban people that smartbombed his newbie butt? What if he was carrying a PLEX in his hold? Do we ban them now?

Arbitrary rules and exceptions are arbitrary.

Quote:
Nothing wrong with having that kind of oversight in the sandbox. Call it "emergent content" it would be brilliant.


Easier to just make high sec a "sanctuary" where nobody can attack anyone else, and trade is only allowed if items being traded have approximately similar value, automatically. But then it wouldn't be EVE any more.
Gelatine
EverBroke Geeks
#60 - 2013-01-24 19:26:13 UTC
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
And yeah, if someone says "Give me $200, and I'll give you $400 back.", EVE will teach you it's a scam, and hopefully it'll cost you just some ISK. Same with contract scams - that ask to trade a PLEX + 500 mil for a single PLEX. It teaches you to read the fine print (and in EVE's case, it teaches you to read the BIG print). Which will come in handy when the kid is buying his first cell phone plan or whatever else.


I wonder if your kids have a bank account.